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Source who has been correct about every IG nerf this edition prior to release says guardsmen will be 5ppm. Lets talk.

First off, IG players will be fine. We are a resourceful bunch. That is not what this is about.

This is about Games Workshop being completely oblivious & rather than resolving the root cause of balance issues they opt to apply bandages to a mortal wound. What am I going on about?

Imperial Soup.

Did any of these stop imperial soup players from taking cheap IG units as fodder?

Conscript nerf x2
Commissar nerf
Plasma gun nerf
Melta gun nerf
Astropath nerf
Primaris psycher nerf
Valhallan nerf
Manticore nerf
Ratling nerf
Wyvern nerf
Half a dozen other nerfs I cannot be bothered to list because I have already illustrated my point.

"Well clearly the issue is Imperial Guard is overpowered then!"

Funny you mention that. How many pure IG list made it into the top 10 at the LVO? ZERO.

Nerfing guardsmen to 5ppm will resolve nothing. Until matched play restricts Imperial soup players from using cheap fodder units from other armies, IG will continue to be nerfed into irrelevance until we are right back to where we were in 6th & 7th edition.

Update 2/22/18: Expect changes in the way of command points. He has since changed his position regarding 5ppm update to uncertain. May come with CA.

I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

Of course it will do nothing. The issue though isn't just GW. It's the people feeding them playtest/tournament data.

When stuff gets labeled as "Astra Militarum faction" but then has just as many points spent in other Imperial lists...it's not AM.

It's a shame that rather than instigating a requirement for Conscripts that they can never be taken outside of a Brigade or Battalion Detachment, they chose to just nerf the gak out of them.

Guardsmen are not a 4 ppm model, souo or no soup.

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

The problem being, the IG codex continues to be nerfed repeatedly for over performing despite being unable to hold its own in a tournament setting. We have been nerfed more than any codex & will continue to get nerfed simply because Imperial Soup lists are permitted. Oddly enough, the armies who often field IG units remain unscathed while IG gets nerfed again & again.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

The problem being, the IG codex continues to be nerfed repeatedly for over performing despite being unable to hold its own in a tournament setting. We have been nerfed more than any codex & will continue to get nerfed simply because Imperial Soup lists are permitted. Oddly enough, the armies who often field IG units remain unscathed while IG gets nerfed again & again.

Every nerf guard received (except for the Conscripts points increase) is deserved if we want any sort of balance in this game. Guardsman are worth much more than 4 ppm (every other infantry is worse than an IG Guardsman for the same points cost or even more)

5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

The problem being, the IG codex continues to be nerfed repeatedly for over performing despite being unable to hold its own in a tournament setting. We have been nerfed more than any codex & will continue to get nerfed simply because Imperial Soup lists are permitted. Oddly enough, the armies who often field IG units remain unscathed while IG gets nerfed again & again.

Every nerf guard received (except for the Conscripts points increase) is deserved if we want any sort of balance in this game. Guardsman are worth much more than 4 ppm (every other infantry is worse than an IG Guardsman for the same points cost or even more)

Got any proof to back up that hot take there, sonny jim?

Nah? Figured.

IG players got hosed by dark reapers. The hammer will come for them, and ig will be back on top.

 koooaei wrote:
5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.


As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff. If those players want to play them and break elements of the game... well fine, you don't have to play against them.

The problem being, the IG codex continues to be nerfed repeatedly for over performing despite being unable to hold its own in a tournament setting. We have been nerfed more than any codex & will continue to get nerfed simply because Imperial Soup lists are permitted. Oddly enough, the armies who often field IG units remain unscathed while IG gets nerfed again & again.

There's also nothing in a marine list to nerf. Marines are using guardsmen as crutches because the are so much more efficient. If something gets spammed at tourneys, GW is gonna nerf it now. Get used to it. Spamming means its probably at the wrong price point.

So I'm a mono-guard player and I'm okay with this.

It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Plus, 30-60 points isn't that much. It's not an intolerable nerf, and IMO it does bring casual IG in line with other casual lists without crippling our bottom line.

It's unfortunate, and I think it's unnecessary, but I won't be losing any sleep or anything over it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.


As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.

13ppm for tac marines isn’t so hot either, yet the marine threads get plenty of “deal with it bro” style responses. It’s a horde meta; guardsmen were clearly underpriced at 4ppm. I’m happy to see the price hike. At this point I’m not sure GWs points system has enough nuance to it, and I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a change in the way that works.

So I can expect the see my GMDK get nerfed? I mean we all know how OP GKs are.

In other words because of someone else's abuses GK get hit with the nerf bat as well. If GW is going to make costs codex specific and then change all of the entries for a weapon/model in every codex why don't they just publish one master list? Otherwise give me back my lower priced Storm Ravens, Assault Cannons and, Razorbacks. GK never could abuse them and now it's harder for them to even use them properly.

I'm sure Guard aren't the only thing on the chopping block for nerfs, and in all honesty making them more expensive balances the game more (150 points instead of 120 for 3 infantry squads means less spamming Brigades for command points, even in soups).

I'm curious to see what else is coming in terms of the nerfs (like Dark Reapers), but I wouldn't start flipping tables since we're still a month out and don't know what's coming yet.

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff.

Hrm, only in the most strategic of senses. Guilliman and Celestine are probably not accompanied by guardsmen, in a tactical battlefield sense, in nearly every battle. Having both the Daemon primarchs of the Tzeentch and Nurgle legions in the same army feels...very off.

It's one of those things that, yeah you can see once in a while, or that makes sense in really big games, but when you see it in any size game all the time, it really starts to cheapen background elements. A huge part of the universe is not just how each faction is arrayed against each other but how many of them don't even get along with themselves necessarily all the time. The Imperium is defined by its byzantine dysfunction and internal conflict that reaches the level of open warfare with regularity, as well as distinct social stratification where different elements of the Imperium don't necessarily openly mix quite as regularly or easily as is often portrayed on the table. The legions of Chaos are famously disunited. Even among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar and Craftworlders represent diametrically opposed political, philisophical, economic and cultural norms which regularly sees bloodshed with direct malicious intent.

IG players can flip the tables all they like. GW did some serious miscalculations with their entire list, but unlike previous editions, they aren't letting it stand. 4 ppm guardsmen are showing up everywhere for a reason. Just like dark reapers are showing up everywhere for a reason.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff.

Hrm, only in the most strategic of senses. Guilliman and Celestine are probably not accompanied by guardsmen, in a tactical battlefield sense, in nearly every battle. Having both the Daemon primarchs of the Tzeentch and Nurgle legions in the same army feels...very off.

It's one of those things that, yeah you can see once in a while, or that makes sense in really big games, but when you see it in any size game all the time, it really starts to cheapen background elements. A huge part of the universe is not just how each faction is arrayed against each other but how many of them don't even get along with themselves necessarily all the time. The Imperium is defined by its byzantine dysfunction and internal conflict that reaches the level of open warfare with regularity, as well as distinct social stratification where different elements of the Imperium don't necessarily openly mix quite as regularly or easily as is often portrayed on the table. The legions of Chaos are famously disunited. Even among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar and Craftworlders represent diametrically opposed political, philisophical, economic and cultural norms which regularly sees bloodshed with direct malicious intent.

The problem is that soup isn't just Celestine and Guilliman or the two Chaos Primarchs.

Soup can instead be an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment running along with some Imperial Superheavies to help secure and protect the relic tanks. Or it can be Imperial Guardsmen trying to hold back the tide of daemons while the Grey Knights teleport into battle. Or it can be a Knight Household of thundering war-engines striding amongst the skitarii of Ryza to engage the Orks.

Soup is fine at 1000 (like the novel Dark Adeptus which is 5 Grey Knight Terminators, an Archmagos, a regular Techpriest, and 20 Skitarii), 1500 points (like the novel Gunheads where Leman Russ tanks and Guard infantry are accompanied by a Magos and a few tech-priests to recover a wrecked baneblade), or 2000 points (like the novel Titanicus where a PDF fights alongside Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii and an Astra Militarum tank regiment, to drive back the traitors).

Soup is fluffy, soup is good.

Could we get a source for this rumor/leak? I’d love to see it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Soup is fluffy, soup is good.

Not when it means non-soups struggle to compete.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
I really don't understand the problem with "soup" armies. Whether it be Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari, they are extremely in keeping with the fluff.

Hrm, only in the most strategic of senses. Guilliman and Celestine are probably not accompanied by guardsmen, in a tactical battlefield sense, in nearly every battle. Having both the Daemon primarchs of the Tzeentch and Nurgle legions in the same army feels...very off.

It's one of those things that, yeah you can see once in a while, or that makes sense in really big games, but when you see it in any size game all the time, it really starts to cheapen background elements. A huge part of the universe is not just how each faction is arrayed against each other but how many of them don't even get along with themselves necessarily all the time. The Imperium is defined by its byzantine dysfunction and internal conflict that reaches the level of open warfare with regularity, as well as distinct social stratification where different elements of the Imperium don't necessarily openly mix quite as regularly or easily as is often portrayed on the table. The legions of Chaos are famously disunited. Even among the Eldar, the Dark Eldar and Craftworlders represent diametrically opposed political, philisophical, economic and cultural norms which regularly sees bloodshed with direct malicious intent.

Guilliman and Celestine could be easily leading a force of Astra Militarum during the important moments of a major engagement so I don't see a fluff problem there. Magnus and Mortarion together in a single list... that I would issues with. Not fluffy.

But combined forces are going to happen a lot more in the canon universe than you might think so having those on the tables are fine. For myself I collect Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons, two armies that do fight together.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Soup is fluffy, soup is good.

Not when it means non-soups struggle to compete.

Are they?

I'm fairly certain out of the top 8 at LVO, one was mono-blood angels, and 5 were Eldar. The 5 were 'soups', but forcing them to be mono wouldn't have harmed the lists at all. Mono-eldar can still spam 30 Dark Reapers with buffs. You'd reduce their list efficiency by like 2% by removing the Ynnari detachment. So that leaves 2 soup lists in the top 8 at LVO.

6 non-soup (or practically non-soup) lists in the top 8, including the victor. Wow, really struggling there.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

You know better than that.


It's not going to murder my list, but I probably will miss those 60 extra points. I wonder if this will affect special weapons squads as well.

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It shaves 30-60 points off my superheavy lists, because it's a shame because that's one or two fewer non-superheavy things I can buy, but if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

You know better than that.


It's not going to murder my list, but I probably will miss those 60 extra points. I wonder if this will affect special weapons squads as well.

I know better than what? I don't understand your comment.

And yeah, it'll probably ripple through the list and reinforce scions as the best troops choices.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.


As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.

You don't even need a comissar to keep a large blob intact. IG is swimming in command points.

As is ig troops are too effective for points. 10 extra for 10 dudes is not really all that much. That's just 30-60 off from a list. And you still have amazing battle tanks, overpowered stormtrooper comsquads and other great stuff.

Guards are showing in like 80% competitive imperium lists. It's a clear indicator that something is wrong with them. Maybe if you're playing a casual semi-optimised list, you won't notice that they're too good. But if you do, you also won't notice 30-60 points going away from your list cause of one unit getting more expensive and going back to your list cause another unit got cheaper.

As for soup lists, yep, not getting any penalties for mixing stuff from different books is a real problem here. But keep in mind that gw gets sales increas because they actually allow you to take whatever you want. So, soup's here to stay.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Big if...

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
if it makes the anti-guard players stop whining, it's fine.

Big if...

Well, what're you going to do. It's like people that complain about zergs in Elder Scrolls Online PVP. "Let's play a war-game!" "Okay, I bring a reasonable army with tons of troops backed up by heavy guns and tanks." "Now what is my Navy SEAL squad led by James Bond supposed to do about that! It's unfair!"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.


As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.

And yet lots of people voted Infantry Squads as one of the most powerful units. Commissars were never really for regular squads anyway.

Perhaps the perspective from IG players is potentially biased? At least you'll have a reason to take conscripts now.

Maybe they are "poor" for that cost, but it still makes them a great flexible unit out front of some very effective vehicles.

And I say this with no dog in the fight at all.

Bremon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
5 ppm is really about right for them. They'll still be really good. Cheap 5+ wounds are great. I;m also awaiting a much needed nerf to scion command squads.

5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if Commissars hadn't gotten absolutely shanked months ago and remained absolute garbage.
5ppm and 4ppm for Guardsmen and Conscripts would be right...if they had a feature similar to Camo Cloaks where they got to add 2 points to their saves while in Cover or if they had a Cult Ambush styled rule.


As it stands, 5ppm and 4ppm is absolute garbage and anyone who feels it's "appropriate" needs to stop commenting on Guard related threads.

13ppm for tac marines isn’t so hot either, yet the marine threads get plenty of “deal with it bro” style responses. It’s a horde meta; guardsmen were clearly underpriced at 4ppm. I’m happy to see the price hike. At this point I’m not sure GWs points system has enough nuance to it, and I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a change in the way that works.

Tac Marines are WS/BS3+ S/T4 1W LD7 with a 3+ save and rerollable Failed Morale tests(ATSNKF). Every model includes a Bolt Pistol and a Boltgun and Frag and Krak Grenades.

They're not comparable. A Guardsman is a WS/BS4+ S/T3 1W LD6 model with a 5+(2 points worse) save and only features a Lasgun and Frag Grenades.
Jumping from BS 4+ to 3+ alone is considered worth 2 points(as evidenced by the price jump from a standard Guardsman to a Veteran) and going from a 5+ save to a 4+ is likely another point in and of itself(it's hard to make an exacting conversion on this one since the Scions have fairly significant stat differences to a Veteran on their weapons, and they also come equipped with Krak Grenades as well and have an alternate deployment method as well).

There seems to be a bit of wiggle room in points costing at times, but the rule of thumb seems to be that any stat(barring Leadership--which doesn't seem like it really gets priced unless it goes at or over 7--the only tangible difference between a Neophyte Hybrid and a standard Guardsman is LD7. It also seems that WS is exempted from this when the model has no CC weapon or is below a certain threshhold of S/T) going from 5+ to 4+ is 1ppm while any stat going from a 4+ to 3+ is instead 2 points of difference. It also seems that going from 3s to 4s on Toughness/Strength is +1ppm

So from that, one could speculate that Tactical Marines are:
+6ppm for the WS/BS/Sv3+. +2ppm for S/T4. +1ppm for LD7(8 on the Sergeant).

That's a difference of 9 points from a Guardsman.

Now, if you want to argue that Guard should pay for their Sergeants and/or Heavy Weapon Teams(Currently, an Infantry or Veteran Squad that takes a HWT don't pay for it in points--they just pay for the weapon)?
Sure. Fine. But I want more options for the Sergeants; including an option to fething have a Lasgun--and I want to see FRFSRF altered to include ALL weapons in a squad. Not just Lasguns.

Play the Death Korps, they have lasguns on their sergeants.