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Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Recently I've been lining up the Dark Talon against the meta and really liking what I'm seeing. At 160 points it just seems very competitive for what it brings to the current top lists. There's just blobs everywhere, cheap abundant screening units, and less and less heavily mechanized lists. Yes, there are vehicles out there, but 8th has become very infantry-centric. To that end the Dark Talon seems tailor made. You're getting 24 bolter shots from it when in rapid fire range, which it will be if you want it to. On top of that, the ability to roll 10 dice at a blob for mortal wounds on a 4+ the first time you pass over the opponents hordes on first turn. On top of all of that it has a really nice primary weapon, ideal for tanks, monstrous creatures, and heavy elite multi-wound infantry, strength 10 ap -3 and flat 3 damage with d3 shots? Seems really good. Not to mention if you damage with the rift cannon you have a good shot at an additional d3 mortal wounds. I've been running three in an air wing detachment and they have been nothing short of amazing against the current meta, the three of them on turn 1, dropping all 3 bombs and unloading 72 bolter shots have been deleting huge blobs of cultists and guardians for me. Is this an underrepresented and underappreciated all-star in the current meta?

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Made in ru
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




They are great, but it seems they are not enough to win.

I've seen a few lists from LVO that ran 3-4 dark talons supported by darkshrouds.

I suppose they performed well, but then there are those eldar dark repers that ignore to hit modifiers and destroy them turn 1.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Follow a couple Dark Talons around with Sammael and a Talonmaster, and you've got a great core for a competitive force. That's a lot of fast, useful firepower. Add a Darkshroud for extra LOLZ. A unit or two of bikers are great screening units to keep your characters alive, or you could plonk down a unit of Deathwing knights in your opponent's face with some character support to force him into a really hard choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 01:55:08


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Timur wrote:
They are great, but it seems they are not enough to win.

I've seen a few lists from LVO that ran 3-4 dark talons supported by darkshrouds.

I suppose they performed well, but then there are those eldar dark repers that ignore to hit modifiers and destroy them turn 1.


Of course, but reapers destroy everything at the moment!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Follow a couple Dark Talons around with Sammael and a Talonmaster, and you've got a great core for a competitive force. That's a lot of fast, useful firepower. Add a Darkshroud for extra LOLZ. A unit or two of bikers are great screening units to keep your characters alive, or you could plonk down a unit of Deathwing knights in your opponent's face with some character support to force him into a really hard choice.


Agreed, I've been using them in all sorts of different lists, including different base chapters, like UM or Salamanders with the Dark Talon air wing as a compliment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 02:38:16


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Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Definitely the most powerful unit in the DA book right now. I think they are probably the best flyer out there, especially with darkshrouds to protect them.

Even reapers don’t automatically beat them if you really spam the things. A guy at a tournament this weekend took 7, and that only costs 1120 points. That’s not much more than the price of 3 Stormravens. 14 hurricane bolters will tend to cause a considerable amount of damage. Stasis bombs on reapers and shining spears make a lot of sense too. You can even have them charge dark reapers to stop them shooting.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Mandragola wrote:
Definitely the most powerful unit in the DA book right now. I think they are probably the best flyer out there, especially with darkshrouds to protect them.

Even reapers don’t automatically beat them if you really spam the things. A guy at a tournament this weekend took 7, and that only costs 1120 points. That’s not much more than the price of 3 Stormravens. 14 hurricane bolters will tend to cause a considerable amount of damage. Stasis bombs on reapers and shining spears make a lot of sense too. You can even have them charge dark reapers to stop them shooting.


That sounds pretty awesome, alas I only own 3 lol! But it's good to hear that it's not just me or my experience, or that I'm over-valuing them.

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Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






But why run 3 when you can run 5? There was a list at tournament I went to that ran 8 of the things haha. It came 4th out of around 100

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






If I had more than 3 painted and ready to go I would haha.

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Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

A good beta strike list could really cause problems for 5-8 Dark Talons. Equally anything that can fly and charge or hit automatically could cause problems. 2 units of SS in a webway, massed demon princes/ hive tyrants, spammed plague crawlers... the list goes on.

   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Yeah, for me, for now, 3 of them in an air wing detachment, along with a more balanced list, is what I'm running.

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Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 DoomMouse wrote:
But why run 3 when you can run 5? There was a list at tournament I went to that ran 8 of the things haha. It came 4th out of around 100


How the frak do you not lose to Boots on the Ground with that?

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






He had sammael, a talonmaster and a darkshroud among other things and a couple of cheap imperial characters to hide in his deployment zone. You can't really afford to just ignore the planes or your army will likely be tabled in short order with potentially 192 bolter shots hitting you on turn 1

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






5+ is going a bit extreme. Spamming is fine, and I'm not against it in a competitive setting, but as I said, I think three is the sweet spot, and allows your list to still field some of the other good elements out of the codex, like hellblasters etc.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think a Dark Talon spam list with some Inceptors to really wear down a couple tough targets would be great. Just make sure Sammael ends up where you want your inceptors so they can reroll 1s. Off the top of my head:

Battalion
Sammael - 213
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
3x5 scouts - 165
6 Inceptors - 354
4 bikes - 2 plasma, combi-plasma - 149
Darkshroud - 138

5 Dark Talons - 800

There's 23 points to play with, assuming I remembered costs correctly. Seems like a solid list. Might give it a shot!



   
Made in ru
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




MilkmanAl wrote:
I think a Dark Talon spam list with some Inceptors to really wear down a couple tough targets would be great. Just make sure Sammael ends up where you want your inceptors so they can reroll 1s. Off the top of my head:

Battalion
Sammael - 213
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
3x5 scouts - 165
6 Inceptors - 354
4 bikes - 2 plasma, combi-plasma - 149
Darkshroud - 138

5 Dark Talons - 800

There's 23 points to play with, assuming I remembered costs correctly. Seems like a solid list. Might give it a shot!





I have seen a similar list except it had 2 darkshrouds, i assume because one darkshroud dies pretty easily
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






I like the look of the list, I'm wondering about the inceptors though, you mentioned to widdle down tougher targets, you mean using the bolter variants?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




No, plasma. They're the most cost-effective option for plasma volune that we have, so they're the best target for WftDA. Drop in, melt something, hopefully don't die, repeat. The rift cannons from the Talons are certainly nice, but they need a little help against massed vehicles, just because there aren't a lot of them. An average of 24 plasma shots should fill that gap very nicely.

The bolter Inceptors aren't necessary in this list. I'd just take 2 more Dark talons instead for the bolters.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






I see, that's interesting. Have people been running the numbers on that? Have plasma inceptors been performing better than hellblasters in an azrael castle?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Inceptors are the best plasma output per point. The difference comes from support. It's fairly obvious that a unit getting precision dropped in is going to be more difficult to support than something starting in your deployment zone. Azrael adds considerable durability to Hellblasters, making them more likely to continue their damage output for a couple turns, instead of being a likely one-and-done prospect, as Inceptors ate pretty likely to be. Ideally, you'd be able to knock out one major threat and then use the remainder of the army to neutralize other units that may threaten the Inceptors, but that may be difficult.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Got it. So it's still a toss up as to using one or the other, it's not as though the DA community has completely moved on from hellblasters competitively?

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Depends on the list and particularly the warlord. If you are using Azrael then chances are you'll go with Hellblasters. If you go with Sammael who is super solid as well, you might consider Inceptors.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






True. Here's another stab at a competitive Dark Talon based build. It's a bit different from the above mentioned list. It drops the darkshroud, eschewing the protection for more brute force. The list puts out 200 bolter shots a turn lol.


Battalion & Double Air Wing Detachments 8 CP


HQ – Sammael on Corvex
HQ – Ravenwing Talon Master w/ Heavenfall Blade

Fast Attack – 6x Primaris Inceptors w/ Plasma Exterminators

Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns, Camo Cloaks & Missile Launcher

Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon




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Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 peteralmo wrote:
True. Here's another stab at a competitive Dark Talon based build. It's a bit different from the above mentioned list. It drops the darkshroud, eschewing the protection for more brute force. The list puts out 200 bolter shots a turn lol.


Battalion & Double Air Wing Detachments 8 CP


HQ – Sammael on Corvex
HQ – Ravenwing Talon Master w/ Heavenfall Blade

Fast Attack – 6x Primaris Inceptors w/ Plasma Exterminators

Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns
Troops – 5x Scouts w/ Boltguns, Camo Cloaks & Missile Launcher

Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon
Flyer – Ravenwing Dark Talon





Only advice is to break up the inceptors to 2 3-man units. It's pretty rare outside of an Imperial Knight that you'll find a viable target for all 6 inceptors (a target that both needs 6 to kill and it worth less that the 340ish pts). Two three man units gives you a lot more flexability and you could always drop them next to each other if needed.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Be careful spamming one unit this hard.

It gets on GWs radar and then you end up with the malific lord treatment (as a jealous SM player looking at what they did to our not so great stormtalon/hawk which is worse and costs more)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 DoomMouse wrote:
But why run 3 when you can run 5? There was a list at tournament I went to that ran 8 of the things haha. It came 4th out of around 100


Because then they'll get nerfed and you'll be left holding the bag.
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






"Only advice is to break up the inceptors to 2 3-man units. It's pretty rare outside of an Imperial Knight that you'll find a viable target for all 6 inceptors (a target that both needs 6 to kill and it worth less that the 340ish pts). Two three man units gives you a lot more flexability and you could always drop them next to each other if needed."


Sounds good in theory, but the reason to run them 6 strong is to take full advantage of the weapons from the dark age stratagem.

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Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 peteralmo wrote:
"Only advice is to break up the inceptors to 2 3-man units. It's pretty rare outside of an Imperial Knight that you'll find a viable target for all 6 inceptors (a target that both needs 6 to kill and it worth less that the 340ish pts). Two three man units gives you a lot more flexability and you could always drop them next to each other if needed."


Sounds good in theory, but the reason to run them 6 strong is to take full advantage of the weapons from the dark age stratagem.


I've had the three man squads blow up a Tanatula in an alpha strike on drop with the strategem. I agree it's a massive benefit, but how often are you going to encounter something that needs to be shot with 12xD3 attacks with Str8 AP-4 3damage? a three man squad is a potential 54 wounds and a six man is 108 damage.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






 ChargerIIC wrote:
 peteralmo wrote:
"Only advice is to break up the inceptors to 2 3-man units. It's pretty rare outside of an Imperial Knight that you'll find a viable target for all 6 inceptors (a target that both needs 6 to kill and it worth less that the 340ish pts). Two three man units gives you a lot more flexability and you could always drop them next to each other if needed."


Sounds good in theory, but the reason to run them 6 strong is to take full advantage of the weapons from the dark age stratagem.


I've had the three man squads blow up a Tanatula in an alpha strike on drop with the strategem. I agree it's a massive benefit, but how often are you going to encounter something that needs to be shot with 12xD3 attacks with Str8 AP-4 3damage? a three man squad is a potential 54 wounds and a six man is 108 damage.



Yes, but remember everything can split fire in 8th. So I still think it best to get that stratagem active on all six, then split fire as you see fit. But your point is fair.

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah I have to agree don't work them into being nerfed. If everyone starts bringing 6, you are going to be left with approx. 6 useless models and alot of lost money in half a years time. I personally think 3 is the right number. It's a strong component but leaves you other tactical options as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 14:52:33


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear






Widied wrote:
Yeah I have to agree don't work them into being nerfed. If everyone starts bringing 6, you are going to be left with approx. 6 useless models and alot of lost money in half a years time. I personally think 3 is the right number. It's a strong component but leaves you other tactical options as well.


I agree, I only own 3 as it is, but who doesn't love writing lists!

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