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1. Everyone starts with 12 command points, detachments do not provide bonuses.

2. The only units that can score objectives are units that would in the current version of the game have some kind of objective secured rule,
however other units can contest them.

3. Tactical reserves is no longer limited to half of your units, but instead half of the points value of the game you are playing.

4. Mortal wounds no longer ignore invunlerable saves, this overrides the current beta smite rules, which are now ignored.

5. Non character, non infantry, vehicle units, which start the game containing a single model, may fallback and shoot in the same turn.

6. During the fight phase, if they have not already done so this turn, when activating, a unit may choose to forgoe its close combat attacks,
and instead make a shooting attack against a single unit they are within 1" following the rules for overwatch (weapons which auto hit, must also roll to hit).

7. Any stratagem which specifically requires an enemy unit of a certain faction to trigger, is not allowed in matched play.

8. You may only deploy units in tactical reserve, after you have deployed all other units on the board.

9. The following stratagems are made available to everyone:

A - Out manuvered:
After your opponent declares that they will be using a stratagem, you may use this stratagem to cancel the effect of theirs.
Cost 2 + the cost of your opponents stratagem.

B - Overwhelming defence/offence:
You may make your opponent reroll a single die.
Cost 3

C - Preparedness:
At any time during a phase you may use this strategem to ignore all negative (and positive) modifiers to a units to hit rolls for the duration of the phase.
Cost 3

D - Dangerous incursion:
A unit arriving from tactical reserve that would normally be limited to arriving no closer than 9 inches to an enemy model, may ignore this stipulation.
However they must roll a dice for every wound in the unit and on a 4+ take a mortal wound.
Cost 6

E - Hold the line!:
during the charge phase an infantry unit may fire overwatch at their full balistic skill, and apply any modifiers that they normally would during the shooting phase.
Cost 3

secretForge wrote:
1. Everyone starts with 12 command points, detachments do not provide bonuses.

I am cool with the idea of a flat number of command points. I feel like it might need to have some kind of x amount of CP for every x amount of points in the game though.

2. The only units that can score objectives are units that would in the current version of the game have some kind of objective secured rule,
however other units can contest them.

No. Bad. Not only does it force players to bring a certain type of unit to have objectives, it makes those units primary targets for your opponent. You can't claim objectives if al your objective claimers are dead.

3. Tactical reserves is no longer limited to half of your units, but instead half of the points value of the game you are playing.

Also bad. Some characters that are supposed to be deepstriking with support are very expensive and then you cut out all their support.

4. Mortal wounds no longer ignore invunlerable saves, this overrides the current beta smite rules, which are now ignored.

Bad again. Mortal Wounds are an excellent mechanic that makes it so no matter how big or tough or rerollable 2+ you make your models there is always a way to kill everything. I don't want invulnerable deathstars again.

5. Non character, non infantry, vehicle units, which start the game containing a single model, may fallback and shoot in the same turn.

So vehicles can fall back and shoot as though they had fly even if they don't?

6. During the fight phase, if they have not already done so this turn, when activating, a unit may choose to forgoe its close combat attacks,
and instead make a shooting attack against a single unit they are within 1" following the rules for overwatch (weapons which auto hit, must also roll to hit).

Terrible. Why should you give this advantage to shooting armies? I mean, it's not like overwatch generally does much. But think of all melee has to do just to get there coupled with the fact that your unit could just... leave anyway. Plus this lets anyone with pistols get 2 rounds of shooting with them. Plasma Pistols for example.

7. Any stratagem which specifically requires an enemy unit of a certain faction to trigger, is not allowed in matched play.

So... Grey Knights should feth off?

8. You may only deploy units in tactical reserve, after you have deployed all other units on the board.

I think using tactical reserves to draw out opponents placements so you can set up in reaction to them is very... tactical.

9. The following stratagems are made available to everyone:

A - Out manuvered:
After your opponent declares that they will be using a stratagem, you may use this stratagem to cancel the effect of theirs.
Cost 2 + the cost of your opponents stratagem.

I think that spending a bunch of points to have nothing happen is very boring. From a game design perspective this is bad. You want players doing stuff and seeing effects. Not having their agency taken away.

B - Overwhelming defence/offence:
You may make your opponent reroll a single die.
Cost 3

Same as above. When you roll that real nice roll your opponent shouldn't be able to take it away and cause nothing to happen.

C - Preparedness:
At any time during a phase you may use this strategem to ignore all negative (and positive) modifiers to a units to hit rolls for the duration of the phase.
Cost 3

On the fence on this one.

D - Dangerous incursion:
A unit arriving from tactical reserve that would normally be limited to arriving no closer than 9 inches to an enemy model, may ignore this stipulation.
However they must roll a dice for every wound in the unit and on a 4+ take a mortal wound.
Cost 6

Hate it. I get that there is a heavy risk built into it but the deepstrike range of 9" is there for a reason.

E - Hold the line!:
during the charge phase an infantry unit may fire overwatch at their full balistic skill, and apply any modifiers that they normally would during the shooting phase.
Cost 3

Awful. Again, melee already has enough hurdles to get over.

What Lance said.

I think this was written by a guard player. Tanks falling back and shooting everything and then guardsman getting first rank/second rank in close combat. Also wanting to spend all those command points to shoot overwatch more effectively.

But I do like flat command points for everyone and I could see having a strategem that made your opponent reroll. Both seem very reasonable to me.

 Lance845 wrote:

2. The only units that can score objectives are units that would in the current version of the game have some kind of objective secured rule,
however other units can contest them.

No. Bad. Not only does it force players to bring a certain type of unit to have objectives, it makes those units primary targets for your opponent. You can't claim objectives if al your objective claimers are dead.

Thats exactly the intention, I really enjoyed this aspect of the game in 5th, and think its a strong way to provide an incentive for generally weaker troop choices.

3. Tactical reserves is no longer limited to half of your units, but instead half of the points value of the game you are playing.

Also bad. Some characters that are supposed to be deepstriking with support are very expensive and then you cut out all their support.

But it also stops people deepstriking say 10 flyrants, while having some rippers on the board.

4. Mortal wounds no longer ignore invunlerable saves, this overrides the current beta smite rules, which are now ignored.

Bad again. Mortal Wounds are an excellent mechanic that makes it so no matter how big or tough or rerollable 2+ you make your models there is always a way to kill everything. I don't want invulnerable deathstars again.

And neither do I, but I also believe that there should be a defence to everything, and that mortal wounds are a bad mechanic, we can agree to disagree on this one.

5. Non character, non infantry, vehicle units, which start the game containing a single model, may fallback and shoot in the same turn.

So vehicles can fall back and shoot as though they had fly even if they don't?

Yep!

6. During the fight phase, if they have not already done so this turn, when activating, a unit may choose to forgoe its close combat attacks,
and instead make a shooting attack against a single unit they are within 1" following the rules for overwatch (weapons which auto hit, must also roll to hit).

Terrible. Why should you give this advantage to shooting armies? I mean, it's not like overwatch generally does much. But think of all melee has to do just to get there coupled with the fact that your unit could just... leave anyway. Plus this lets anyone with pistols get 2 rounds of shooting with them. Plasma Pistols for example.

Yeah admittely im not super tied to this one.

7. Any stratagem which specifically requires an enemy unit of a certain faction to trigger, is not allowed in matched play.

So... Grey Knights should feth off?

Actually this is pretty good for GK (the daemon stratagem vs GK is insanely OP), but is also balanced by the change to mortal wounds, as they will have their 5++ against the GK smites.

8. You may only deploy units in tactical reserve, after you have deployed all other units on the board.

I think using tactical reserves to draw out opponents placements so you can set up in reaction to them is very... tactical.

Its a very no brainer, if you have deep striking units then your opponent doesn't get to deploy against you, having lots of deep striking units removes a whole portion of counter play for your opponent.

9. The following stratagems are made available to everyone:

A - Out manuvered:
After your opponent declares that they will be using a stratagem, you may use this stratagem to cancel the effect of theirs.
Cost 2 + the cost of your opponents stratagem.

I think that spending a bunch of points to have nothing happen is very boring. From a game design perspective this is bad. You want players doing stuff and seeing effects. Not having their agency taken away.

Thats why it has a high opportunity cost, Plus it adds a layer of counterplay to the game, and gives an option to counter 'insane bravery', which I would otherwise have suggested removing.

B - Overwhelming defence/offence:
You may make your opponent reroll a single die.
Cost 3

Same as above. When you roll that real nice roll your opponent shouldn't be able to take it away and cause nothing to happen.

Thats why its 3 times more expensive than giving yourself a reroll.

D - Dangerous incursion:
A unit arriving from tactical reserve that would normally be limited to arriving no closer than 9 inches to an enemy model, may ignore this stipulation.
However they must roll a dice for every wound in the unit and on a 4+ take a mortal wound.
Cost 6

Hate it. I get that there is a heavy risk built into it but the deepstrike range of 9" is there for a reason.

Yep and its a reason that Im willing to ignore (seen as im nerfing deep strike in a few other areas), plus its that buff to melle that is missing from the other changes.

E - Hold the line!:
during the charge phase an infantry unit may fire overwatch at their full balistic skill, and apply any modifiers that they normally would during the shooting phase.
Cost 3

Awful. Again, melee already has enough hurdles to get over.

I like this one, but yeah maybe this should be Cost 6 too.

Well you don't seem to be interested in actually designing a level playing field but instead on a set of changes that create a favorable position for a very specific set of units.

Again, from a design perspective, this is mostly really bad. Find people who like to play this way and have fun. I would never play this way.

secretForge wrote:
Thats exactly the intention, I really enjoyed this aspect of the game in 5th, and think its a strong way to provide an incentive for generally weaker troop choices.

As apposed to the fact that cheap troop hordes are the meta this edition?

But it also stops people deepstriking say 10 flyrants, while having some rippers on the board.

Yes, let's stop armies from using the only method they have of keeping their monster units alive after turn 1.

And neither do I, but I also believe that there should be a defence to everything, and that mortal wounds are a bad mechanic, we can agree to disagree on this one.

There's a saying: "the best defence is a good offence", if you want to stop the mortal wound pounding then kill the sources of mortal wounds.

Yep!

Which is good why?

Actually this is pretty good for GK (the daemon stratagem vs GK is insanely OP), but is also balanced by the change to mortal wounds, as they will have their 5++ against the GK smites.

Oh yes, I'm sure GK players would be thrilled if you didn't let them use half of their stratagems.

Its a very no brainer, if you have deep striking units then your opponent doesn't get to deploy against you, having lots of deep striking units removes a whole portion of counter play for your opponent.

Your opponent can still counter place their units since they'll now know that there's a lot of deepstrike units in coming.

Thats why it has a high opportunity cost, Plus it adds a layer of counterplay to the game, and gives an option to counter 'insane bravery', which I would otherwise have suggested removing.

I think you missed Lance's point, that stratagem is bad because no one finds it fun if you just remove someone's special rules and rather than having games where people have to react to game changing stratagem combos they just decide that they don't want you to use that stratagem. It comes across as if a child were playing the game and refused to go on because they don't like your rules.

Thats why its 3 times more expensive than giving yourself a reroll.

Same as above, you missed the point.

Yep and its a reason that Im willing to ignore (seen as im nerfing deep strike in a few other areas), plus its that buff to melle that is missing from the other changes.

You also open the gateway to massed units of flamers tearing up infantry turn 1 or a massive unit of infiltrating cultists tying up a whole gunline turn 1.

I like this one, but yeah maybe this should be Cost 6 too.

Nothing that gives a bonus to shooting armies is good.

 Icculus wrote:
I think this was written by a guard player. Tanks falling back and shooting everything and then guardsman getting first rank/second rank in close combat. Also wanting to spend all those command points to shoot overwatch more effectively.

But I do like flat command points for everyone and I could see having a strategem that made your opponent reroll. Both seem very reasonable to me.

I had the exact same thought. Seems like a rule set to really punish close combat armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Again, from a design perspective, this is mostly really bad. Find people who like to play this way and have fun. I would never play this way.

As a fellow Tyranids player, i 100% agree with this.

I've never played a guard game in my life, but i can see why you might think that.

The tanks falling back was mostly a consideration to things like immolators and land raiders.

General limits to deep striking, was because i feel overall that the way GW hands it out like candy these days isn't good.
But also I wanted people to have an opportunity at a huge risk, to breach impassible gunlines with deep strike (therefore the stratagem).

Limiting people to only Deepstriking half of their points doesn't stop them from keeping their monster units alive, it just stops them from having a guaranteed alpha strike with 80% of their points against their opponent.

As an occasional GK player I'm thrilled to not have an opponent who can essentially make the kills I work for meaningless with a single stratagem. And as a believer in pick up games, I don't think that in matched play, any army should have rules that specifically benefit it against a certain faction.

I get the point abut stopping your opponent doing things being anti fun, but I disagree, I play magic on occasion, and the mindgames that come while playing against blue counter spells, is quite interesting (and admittedly at times frustrating).

You don't necessarily open up the gateway for things tying up your gunline turn one etc, with closer deepstrike, but you instead enforce tighter bubblewrapping if people are desperate to defend themselves, and while taking 50% mortal wounds, and most factions having some form of intercept strategem, its hardly a reliable method of attack.

secretForge wrote:
I've never played a guard game in my life, but i can see why you might think that.

The tanks falling back was mostly a consideration to things like immolators and land raiders.

So what? It's just a benefit to shooting and a nerf to melee.

General limits to deep striking, was because i feel overall that the way GW hands it out like candy these days isn't good.
But also I wanted people to have an opportunity at a huge risk, to breach impassible gunlines with deep strike (therefore the stratagem).

Handing it out like candy is balanced by the fact that rolling 9+ on 2d6 is really difficult. People cannot count on charges from deepstrike without some kind of other support. Having to deal with screens is a part of the game that should not be messed with. Having control over where and when you deepstrike is the answer. Clear the screen first. Then deepstrike.

Limiting people to only Deepstriking half of their points doesn't stop them from keeping their monster units alive, it just stops them from having a guaranteed alpha strike with 80% of their points against their opponent.

Except deepstrike isn't the base reason for alpha strikes and this doesn't stop most of the alpha strikes it only stops the deepstriking ones. Alpha strikes happen because the game has you act with your entire army at once. It's a bad turn structure. If you want to stop alpha strikes fix the problem, not one way in which people are using the problem.

As an occasional GK player I'm thrilled to not have an opponent who can essentially make the kills I work for meaningless with a single stratagem. And as a believer in pick up games, I don't think that in matched play, any army should have rules that specifically benefit it against a certain faction.

I agree that benefits that works specifically agaisnt individual factions are incredibly limiting. They need to be powerful to make up for the fact that they cannot always be used or whatever. But that doesn't matter. Because you are not suggesting to replace these with anything. Your just suggesting to cut them out of the game. So you say, hey, you guys over there. We are going to take away your toys. Not anyone elses. Just yours.

I get the point abut stopping your opponent doing things being anti fun, but I disagree, I play magic on occasion, and the mindgames that come while playing against blue counter spells, is quite interesting (and admittedly at times frustrating).

Magic is a very different game. And when you counter a card with blue magic it doesn't simultaneously blow up all the land cards they used to cast it. Stopping a spell in magic is not the same thing as completely removing all the CP.

You don't necessarily open up the gateway for things tying up your gunline turn one etc, with closer deepstrike, but you instead enforce tighter bubblewrapping if people are desperate to defend themselves, and while taking 50% mortal wounds, and most factions having some form of intercept strategem, its hardly a reliable method of attack.

Most factions do NOT have some form of intercept stratagem. I think right now maybe 3 factions have some kind of intercept. Considering there are like... a dozen codexes out you would need at minimum 7 of those to have a intercept stratagem to have it be considered "most".

1. Everyone starts with 12 command points, detachments do not provide bonuses.

It's not bad a suggestion, but i wouldn't say it's not good either

2. The only units that can score objectives are units that would in the current version of the game have some kind of objective secured rule,
however other units can contest them.

Just.... No, i played 5th edition and the first things to die were the things that could hold objectives. That was not fun at all. Not only that, it forced you to stack only one or two units until only about 30% of your points were actually other units. THAT WAS NOT FUN TO PLAY.

This edition (and 6th and 7th) just feels more fun because everything in your army can do the job. IUt's just now your core units get the extra 'we can hold this even if your there' ability. And I am completely fine with that, makes it all the more satisfying when my big unit wipes them out and claims the win

3. Tactical reserves is no longer limited to half of your units, but instead half of the points value of the game you are playing.

This is a terrible idea. Suddenly a tyranid player can play half their army in tactical reserves? in a horde based meta?

Sure.... try and deal with the literal HORDE that is parked right in front of you in turn 1. This is trying to fix a problem that isn't broken

4. Mortal wounds no longer ignore invunlerable saves, this overrides the current beta smite rules, which are now ignored.

Really? Are you daft? I do not want frigging invulnerable deathstars back in this game. Leave that crap back to 7th

5. Non character, non infantry, vehicle units, which start the game containing a single model, may fallback and shoot in the same turn

.

This is what we called a tailored rule. This really wasn't though out when you suggested this a? Sure this will effect land raiders and big tanks, but it'll also effect things like Sentinels, Non character walkers. Basically you made the fly rule redundant, which is this mechanic already

6. During the fight phase, if they have not already done so this turn, when activating, a unit may choose to forgoe its close combat attacks,
and instead make a shooting attack against a single unit they are within 1" following the rules for overwatch (weapons which auto hit, must also roll to hit).

For me running a melee army (mono Khorne daemons) This is the most thing to ever suggest. Just because you get upwards of 2-3 shootings at my units before they get into close combat, doesn't mean you should get another potshot in close combat. It's already hard enough as it is to get into close combat, you don't need to make it even harder. not to mention you have something called FALL BACK. Which makes CC armies infuriatingly underwhelming.

7. Any stratagem which specifically requires an enemy unit of a certain faction to trigger, is not allowed in matched play.

You just made 70% of grey knight stratagems useless. And 1 stratagem of daemons.....

Was this even though out when you wrote it?

8. You may only deploy units in tactical reserve, after you have deployed all other units on the board.

Who says people already dont? I do, all the time. It gives my oponents anxiety to see if im gonna be deep striking my big daemons or running them up the board

9. The following stratagems are made available to everyone:

A - Out manuvered:
After your opponent declares that they will be using a stratagem, you may use this stratagem to cancel the effect of theirs.
Cost 2 + the cost of your opponents stratagem.

B - Overwhelming defence/offence:
You may make your opponent reroll a single die.
Cost 3

C - Preparedness:
At any time during a phase you may use this strategem to ignore all negative (and positive) modifiers to a units to hit rolls for the duration of the phase.
Cost 3

D - Dangerous incursion:
A unit arriving from tactical reserve that would normally be limited to arriving no closer than 9 inches to an enemy model, may ignore this stipulation.
However they must roll a dice for every wound in the unit and on a 4+ take a mortal wound.
Cost 6

E - Hold the line!:
during the charge phase an infantry unit may fire overwatch at their full balistic skill, and apply any modifiers that they normally would during the shooting phase.
Cost 3

A. Spending stratagems shouldn't be negated because someone decided that they didn't like your tactics. This is not MTG, this is TG

B. forced to re roll something........ Terrible idea

C. Kinda meh. I mean you ignore penalties.... but you also don't get benefits. Obviously better base BS means it is much better. My BS 2+ custodian guard suddenly can shoot flyers or stealth suits or assassins with no problems whatsoever. (Modifers? who needs those?)

D. All i can think of is flamer lines or huge mob units just saying hi. Congratulations, you have made flamers destroyer of worlds

E. The amount of bad idea this is is soo much that i cannot post it in this forum post