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Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Forewarned references units that arrive within a certain distance from a friendly unit and as reinforcements.

I can't think of any other abilities off hand, though I'm sure there are a few but Da Jump takes an already placed unit and moves it.

Am I right in thinking you can't use the forewarned stratagem on units that have moved such?
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements, so Da Jump would count as such to allow Forewarned to be used.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Specifically Da Jump says you remove the unit from the battlefield. Any unit that is removed from the battlefield and then redeployed is coming in from reinforcements.

It's not a simple move from one location to the next. It's a removal and then a deployment.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Lance845 wrote:
Specifically Da Jump says you remove the unit from the battlefield. Any unit that is removed from the battlefield and then redeployed is coming in from reinforcements.

It's not a simple move from one location to the next. It's a removal and then a deployment.


This!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Can you reference rules please? Particularly with regards models removed from battlefield = reinforcements.

The setting up mid turn is a reference to transports exploding I think?
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

Per my reply earlier, page 177, sidebar headed "Reinforcements".

Being set up mid-turn is the requirement, and Da Jump tells you to set the unit up on the board after removing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/13 12:31:26


 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




If you need to, the rule in question:

EINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






I think it's a language thing.

Da Jump does say remove from battlefield and SET UP which seems to imply that they are indeed counted as reinforcements as the above description.

I wouldn't call a unit that is already on the board and shifted to somewhere else a "reinforcement" myself, I thought that reinforcement units were those that had not yet arrived on the battlefield or able to be summoned but I conceded RAW.

Does this mean that if a pox walker or other self spawning model is set up within range of Eldar they can fire at it too? I'm thinking of Necron reanimation protocols and other "come back to life"/"we make you one of us" units.

If so holy feth that is strong.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I wouldn't call a unit that is already on the board and shifted to somewhere else a "reinforcement" myself
Well, you're objectively wrong. The Rules are explicitly clear.
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Does this mean that if a pox walker or other self spawning model is set up within range of Eldar they can fire at it too?
No, adding an additional poxwalker is setting up a singular model, not a unit. Only UNITS that arrive mid turn are reinforcements.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/13 16:48:16


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I wouldn't call a unit that is already on the board and shifted to somewhere else a "reinforcement" myself
Well, you're objectively wrong. The Rules are explicitly clear.

Like I said it's a poor choice of wordage. A reinforcement in the English language does not mean the same thing as it implies in the rules.
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Does this mean that if a pox walker or other self spawning model is set up within range of Eldar they can fire at it too?
 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, adding an additional poxwalker is setting up a singular model, not a unit. Only UNITS that arrive mid turn are reinforcements.
How about if an apothecary resurrects the last member of a unit? What about the Trygon? Tervigon? spawning new units? Ooooh what about if the Avatar resurrects with that stratagem? Is he a reinforcement?
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

Narthecium: At the end of any of your Movement phases, the Apothecary can attempt to heal or revive a single model. Select a friendly <CHAPTER> INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" of the Apothecary.

You can't bring back the last member of the unit, because the unit is no longer within 3" of the Apothecary.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
How about if an apothecary resurrects the last member of a unit? What about the Trygon? Tervigon? spawning new units? Ooooh what about if the Avatar resurrects with that stratagem? Is he a reinforcement?
So desperate for a gotcha you forgot to read the rules and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]. As Ghaz said, you can't do that with the Apothecary. And read the Avatar stratagem again, it prevents the Avatar from ever being removed.
Page 120 Codex: Craftworlds wrote:Do not remove the Avatar of Khaine as a casualty.


Spawning new units of stuff counts as reinforcements, yes, because the UNIT is set up.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/13 18:22:15


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
How about if an apothecary resurrects the last member of a unit? What about the Trygon? Tervigon? spawning new units? Ooooh what about if the Avatar resurrects with that stratagem? Is he a reinforcement?
So desperate for a gotcha you forgot to read the rules and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]. As Ghaz said, you can't do that with the Apothecary. And read the Avatar stratagem again, it prevents the Avatar from ever being removed.
Page 120 Codex: Craftworlds wrote:Do not remove the Avatar of Khaine as a casualty.


Spawning new units of stuff counts as reinforcements, yes, because the UNIT is set up.


I'm not desperate for a "gotcha", I'm just thinking aloud really. I don't have either the Craftworlds codex or the SM one to check these things. [MOD EDIT - Alpharius]? Perhaps you need to look at your own reasons for joining this thread, basically to insult me when I had already conceded that I was wrong. I often see you in the rules threads insulting people for misunderstandings and taking RAW as gospel. You realise RAW is subject to change right? You get that at any moment GW could release an FAQ that invalidates all of this discussion?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/13 18:23:05


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

I would argue that Forewarned does not work here, because the unit is not deployed to reinforcements before it is deployed to the table. Unless there is some rule a unit is not passively deployed to reinforcements before it is set up again on the table. Otherwise, you could not cast Gate of Infinity or Da Jump with exactly half of your units in reserves. Because this would violate the 50% reserves rule, albeit briefly.

Also, slight precedent:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Xenos_2_ENG.pdf

Early warning systems can shoot at Da Jump, but it is specifically not mentioning arriving from reserves.
If an enemy unit is set up within 12" of a model equipped with an early warning override as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield), the model may immediately shoot at that unit as if it were your Shooting phase.


It just specifies arriving mid battle. But, it does not specify the zone from which they must arrive, whereas Forewarned does. These two abilities are worded entirely different. While this doesn't prove that Forewarned can't shoot at a unit arriving via Da Jump, it does highlight the importance of the word "reinforcements" in the ability itself.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/13 19:12:10


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I wouldn't call a unit that is already on the board and shifted to somewhere else a "reinforcement" myself, I thought that reinforcement units were those that had not yet arrived on the battlefield or able to be summoned but I conceded RAW.


If the rule says they are removed from the board, when you put them back they are considered reinforcements from how those are defined in the Reinforcements section.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





DA jump, and other similar abilities, has nothing to do with reinforcements.

They are removed from the board and put back immediately, but they do not go into tactical reinforcements. They have already arrived on the battlefield and are not arriving again. Reinforcements calls out that it is the way for units to arrive mid turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/13 23:47:17


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

blaktoof wrote:
DA jump, and other similar abilities, has nothing to do with reinforcements.

They are removed from the board and put back immediately, but they do not go into tactical reinforcements. They have already arrived on the battlefield and are not arriving again. Reinforcements calls out that it is the way for units to arrive mid turn.


I agree with the bolded

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




i think people are confusing reinforcements (The rule) with tactical reserve (Also a rule, matched play specific).

In my previous post, that is discussing reinforcement, hence the rule itself is posted to show what it means for something to be considered a "reinforcement"

Tactical reserves on the other hand, is a matched play specific rule that is completely different and is what some people on this forum post is talking about, they are completely different rules

REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.



TACTICAL RESERVES

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.



As you can see, they are completely different rules, never mix them together. One is for units that are for deployment (Tactical Reserve) while one is for in battle (Reinforcements), Do not mix them up

Else you would have the most trolling example of your units being instant destroyed if you used da jump past turn 3 if you didn't split these rules

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/14 04:50:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually both rules stipulate units that have not arrived by turn 3 are destroyed.

Tactical reserves are the matched play rules that modify reinforcements, they both are rules for units that do not deploy units to the table during deployment but rather deploy them somewhere else so that they arrive later. Both rules deal with modifying deployment, and when units arrive.

DA jump and similar rules do not put units that had already arrived, been deployed, into either. If they did it would be stated in their rules that they arrive and or go into reinforcements.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





blaktoof wrote:
Actually both rules stipulate units that have not arrived by turn 3 are destroyed.

Tactical reserves are the matched play rules that modify reinforcements, they both are rules for units that do not deploy units to the table during deployment but rather deploy them somewhere else so that they arrive later. Both rules deal with modifying deployment, and when units arrive.

DA jump and similar rules do not put units that had already arrived, been deployed, into either. If they did it would be stated in their rules that they arrive and or go into reinforcements.


"REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn,"

If a rule says to take the unit off the board, then to set it up, you are setting it up in mid-turn. This makes them reinforcements. It's not Tactical Reserves, which is dealing only with initial deployment. That's a subset of Reinforcements, which only says that you're setting up on a battlefield mid-turn.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Reinforcements => set up battlefield mid turn.

This does not mean:

Set up battlefield mid turn => Reinforcements.

You would need to argue that being set up on the battlefield mid turn happens IF AND ONLY IF the unit is coming from reinforcements. Which is not possible. There is an easy counterexample - units disembarking a transport. They are being set up mid turn, but not arriving from reinforcements.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Marmatag wrote:
Reinforcements => set up battlefield mid turn.

This does not mean:

Set up battlefield mid turn => Reinforcements.

You would need to argue that being set up on the battlefield mid turn happens IF AND ONLY IF the unit is coming from reinforcements. Which is not possible. There is an easy counterexample - units disembarking a transport. They are being set up mid turn, but not arriving from reinforcements.

Yea it's things like this that threw me. Or the spawning of units ala Tervigon.

I've emailed GW anyway so hopefully they manage to sneak it into a FAQ.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Marmatag wrote:
Reinforcements => set up battlefield mid turn.

This does not mean:

Set up battlefield mid turn => Reinforcements.

You would need to argue that being set up on the battlefield mid turn happens IF AND ONLY IF the unit is coming from reinforcements. Which is not possible. There is an easy counterexample - units disembarking a transport. They are being set up mid turn, but not arriving from reinforcements.


The Crux word isn't set up, it's arrived. Units set up from disembarking are not stated as arriving. Forewarned iirc calls out units arriving.

Arriving is not the same as being set up, otherwise units in transports turn 3+ would be destroyed. Additionally if simply being set up was the trigger units disembarking would allow for using forewarned/EWO.

Forewarned and similar abilities which specify arrive do not work on da jump and similar abilities.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/15 04:22:39


 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation




Hemet, California

From the BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infnity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements

2000 Militarum Tempestus

 Elbows wrote:
I think it's pretty telling that almost no one on this board has ever stated or encountered people actually trying to pull off nonsense like this. So it really boils down to epeenery.
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 The Sentinel wrote:
From the BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infnity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements

The implication here is that we treat them as arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy Weapons.

If we treat units like reinforcements, does that mean that they, by definition, aren't?

Wouldn't that back up my stance that they aren't reinforcements and shouldn't be able to be targeted by Foresight?
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 The Sentinel wrote:
From the BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infnity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements

The implication here is that we treat them as arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy Weapons.

If we treat units like reinforcements, does that mean that they, by definition, aren't?

Wouldn't that back up my stance that they aren't reinforcements and shouldn't be able to be targeted by Foresight?


No. It would refute it.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. It would refute it.

I disagree but it makes little difference. FAQ answers on one topic do not represent answers for another.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. It would refute it.

I disagree but it makes little difference. FAQ answers on one topic do not represent answers for another.


That's as maybe, but treating something as reinforcements means applying all relevant rules relating to reinforcements... it doesn't mean "extra emphasis this isn't a reinforcement". It means to all intents and purposes they are, so follow those rules.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. It would refute it.

I disagree but it makes little difference. FAQ answers on one topic do not represent answers for another.


That's as maybe, but treating something as reinforcements means applying all relevant rules relating to reinforcements... it doesn't mean "extra emphasis this isn't a reinforcement". It means to all intents and purposes they are, so follow those rules.

Follow those rules =/= they are the same thing.

What it means in this instance is follow those rules for moving and shooting which, unfortunately, does not help us here.
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation




Hemet, California

If that was the case they would have answered the question with a simple yes or no like they have done in other FAQs. Instead in this instance they also further clarified how to treat units that are removed and set up using these types of Stratagems/Abilites/Powers. In the case of the Gate of Infinity psychic power you would have reinforcements that arrive in the Psychic Phase and while I don't have any armies that have those interceptor type Stratagems and I can't actually reference the text, I do believe that they specify they can be used when a unit arrives as reinforcements rather than in any specific phase. This would allow you to use it against anyone using one of these powers in the psychic phase or any other special ability/strat in any other phase of the game.

EDIT: I take that back I do have one of these Stratagems with Admech and it doesn't call out any specific phase. It says it may be played when an enemy unit arrives as reinforcements within 12" of an Admech unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 02:38:51


2000 Militarum Tempestus

 Elbows wrote:
I think it's pretty telling that almost no one on this board has ever stated or encountered people actually trying to pull off nonsense like this. So it really boils down to epeenery.
 
   
 
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