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First impressions from Forge World's rules (posted at https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/13/adeptus-custodes-forge-world-beta-rules-and-codex-faqgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/ if you haven't seen them):

-6+ Invulnerable save is a bit of a joke. Without the detachment bonus (which applies to Infantry and Bikes only) it's stuck at a 6+, which does squat on a model with a 3+ armour save unless the weapon's AP -4 (meltaguns, Hellblasters, Dreadnaught melee attacks, and superheavy main guns).

-Losing PotMS is kind of strange. All the skimmers had it in 30k, and giving you a batch of fast skimmers and then punishing you for moving them feels off. I recognize that they're packing a 2+ to hit base, but the Land Raider's hitting on a 2+ with PotMS and it's still not good so it isn't exactly going to bring down the world here.

-Both are around 50pts too expensive. I benchmarked the Caladius against the Sicaran Battle Tank (good, but far from a tournament-winning fixture) and came up with a price around 250-270pts, while the actual figure is 315pts. I know it can Fly but I don't think that's enough cause to make a model that's about 50% better at shooting and 20% more durable double the price. The Coronus has got a lot of the same problems as the Land Raider and in practice is roughly 10% squishier (more wounds but worse save) and has maybe 70% the firepower, but instead of being around 80% the cost (320pts) it's 370pts. Again, I know it can fly, but doubling your lascannon firepower and bumping your 3+ to a 2+ is hardly a 30pt upgrade.

I'd say either push both to a 5++ (or make Emperor's Chosen apply to vehicles) or push them to a 2+ save, give them PotMS, and drop their costs (with wargear) to ~350 (Coronus)/275 (Caladius) and they might be more usable than they look at present. I am, of course, going to test-run them this Thursday to see if my initial impressions are accurate and do a write-up to send to Forge World, but I'd be interested to hear what your take is on the tanks.

having used both today:

1) Fair enough, but even a 6++ helps against those things. As much as I'd like to see this go up, with GW removing the invuln from normal LRs, this is probs the best we'll get

2) It is strange, but probably ignored for the sake of not letting people screech more about custodes than they already are.

3) while I agree they should be cheaper, you might be under valuing them. in the case of the grav tank: it's functionally 8 missile launcher shots and 2 super heavy-bolters on a durable, mobile platform. Maybe 270, but if you go any cheaper, you risk it being way to under costed. As for the Transport: you trade 2 Lascannon shots for more versitility, an upgraded twin heavy bolter, carrying an extra custard, and a higher base speed for 30 points less.


realistically I think that these are purposefully over priced for the sake of feedback (i.e. people probably wouldn't be as welling to say they are under priced?) The real fun things I've found are the dreads. 250-260 for fun, not necessarily OP, units that add a lot to a custard list.

1) This argument goes both ways, for something as ancient and venerable as a Custodes grav-tank I expect a 5+ invulnerable save. However, with GWs decision to strip the VLR of the 5++, I doubt this is what they want.

2) I fully agree, losing POTMS makes absolutely no sense; furthermore these vehicles should be amongst the most sophisticated that the Imperium has to offer. They should definitely have POTMS. And more so when you consider their cost.

3) Did not look into pricing yet, no opinion here.

4) In addition, a 3+ save doesn't feel remotely Custodes to me, especially since ALL OTHER auramite in the codex has 2+. And this supposedly has "heavy auramite" or somesuch.

 Brennonjw wrote:
...3) while I agree they should be cheaper, you might be under valuing them. in the case of the grav tank: it's functionally 8 missile launcher shots and 2 super heavy-bolters on a durable, mobile platform. Maybe 270, but if you go any cheaper, you risk it being way to under costed. As for the Transport: you trade 2 Lascannon shots for more versitility, an upgraded twin heavy bolter, carrying an extra custard, and a higher base speed for 30 points less...

I don't find the Caladius to be particularly durable, and it doesn't really get a lot out of its mobility (given that it's packing a 60" range Heavy main gun with no PotMS it tends to lose more than it gains if it moves). As for the 'eight missile launchers' comparison I will observe that while missile launchers are shorter range and only AP-2 they do deal double the damage of the Iliastus and if it had eight missile launchers it'd be able to fire 8d6 bolter shots instead of the missile shots. In practice I don't find 70pts for the main gun or 25pts for the chin gun too expensive, but strip the guns off and stack it next to the Sicaran and the Caladius is paying around 130pts (220pt chassis next to a 155pt Sicaran whose price includes a ~60pt gun) for a 6+ Invulnerable save that's not useful, a 6+ FNP, BS2+ instead of just having an Assault main weapon, and Fly. I know Fly and FNPs are good, but even in Custodes 130pts is kind of a lot.

The other comparison that's telling, at least to me, is the question of whether I'd rather have a Caladius or three Dawneagle jetbikers. The jetbikers are somewhat tougher (T7 v. T6 against weapons for which it matters (S6+) is far outstripped by the benefits of the 4+ Invulnerable save, and 2+ armour makes them a lot more resistant to small arms fire; two extra Wounds and the FNP outside the psychic phase make up for that a bit, but the jetbikers also have their wounds broken up into chunks that can force the enemy to waste fire), faster (14" v. 16" is outstripped by the bikes' ability to charge effectively), and do a lot more damage (twelve S6/AP-3/Dd3 attacks rerolling to wound on the charge, which are always hitting on a 2+, are going to get more done than eight S8/AP-3/Dd3 attacks that might be hitting on a 2+ but usually aren't given the proliferation of -to hit, the damage table, and the move-and-fire penalty), and three hurricane bolters are going to get a lot more work done at clearing hordes than the Caladius' fourteen shots.

I know there are cases in which the Caladius is a better choice (it can reach deeper into an enemy deployment zone, for one), but I have yet to play it in a game in which I thought to myself "I'm glad I took this thing instead of three more bikes and another forty points of (something)".

I'm aware that internal balance against the best unit in my Codex isn't a great benchmark, but if I stack this thing up against any tank I've tried it with I come up with the same answer: "it's better, but it's not 100-150pts better".

If I were writing it at this point I'd give it a 2+ save, PotMS, give the Iliastus +1-to-hit-models-with-Fly, and drop the base price to 155pts (making the Iliastus loadout 250pts). At that point I can't get three bikes for its cost, I don't feel like I'm crippling my army's maneuverability or durability by taking it, and I can point at battle tanks in the 150-200pt price range (Sicarans, Predators, Russes, Fire Prisms...) and the Caladius is somewhat better and somewhat more expensive, rather than being marginally better and a lot more expensive.