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Alright so this is not a, these need to be nerfed now!" More of a what do other people think about their power level and this is what I think they should be.

So I have played a hand full of games running tzaangors, in a big 30 man blob and after my last game, I'm of the opinion, these things need to be a bit more balanced. The last game I used them in I was able to keep 2 dreads with frost axes and Bjorn locked in combat for 3 turns only loosing about 4 guys a round. After the game we really determined that the issue is they are to strong for what they should be. Tzaangors are meant to be better cultists, not better space marines. And that's the issue. For 7 points you get space marine stat lines, I'm not including BS because you really should never been running them with their pistols, a 5++, and 2 attacks with -1 str 4 base so already I'm not including the vortex buff which when combod with strats makes them absolutely bonkers. To give you an idea, it I just decided to pick the str buff, I could potentially be wounding a knight on 4s with vet of the long war. Which idk about you I think is just a little nutty, and all this for a 7 pt model.

What I am suggesting is keep their stats the same except drop them to T3 and remove heretic astarties from their keyword. This way they still benefit from things like the reroll to hit from D prince and sorcerers, are still swinging at a 2+, and still get their hood melee, but by removing heretic astarties you get Rrid of doing just stupid stuff like being able to wound knights on 4+ at potentially -2 and being able to swing at it twice via cycle of slaughter.

Again I want to keep their synergy, and their emphasis on being better cultists, and better melee, but space marine stats at 7ppm and the heretic astarties keyword is a bit much, and this is from someone that runs them.

I don't think anything you are saying is wrong - though there are much worse offenders in this game than tzanngies. Pink horrors are also obnoxious for the same reasons. I think the thing you are pointing out most is how bad "marines" really are.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think anything you are saying is wrong - though there are much worse offenders in this game than tzanngies. Pink horrors are also obnoxious for the same reasons. I think the thing you are pointing out most is how bad "marines" really are.

Well there is that, I just really don't understand why they have the heretic astarties keyword. It's like GW keeps forgetting vets of the long war is a 1cp strat that exists

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think anything you are saying is wrong - though there are much worse offenders in this game than tzanngies. Pink horrors are also obnoxious for the same reasons. I think the thing you are pointing out most is how bad "marines" really are.

Well there is that, I just really don't understand why they have the heretic astarties keyword. It's like GW keeps forgetting vets of the long war is a 1cp strat that exists

I agree they should not have that keyword.

Tzaangors are nuts for 7 points. I honestly dislike playing against them because as Marines I have no counter to their numbers besides allied Guard detachments.

They absolutely savage anything I throw at them, and I have nowhere near enough firepower to deal with them at T4 with a 5++. They really should lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, and either 1 point of Strength or Toughness. They would be very reasonable at that point.

I guess time will tell if Tzaangor spam becomes meta bending and is seen at the top tables in tournaments.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Tzaangors are nuts for 7 points. I honestly dislike playing against them because as Marines I have no counter to their numbers besides allied Guard detachments.

They absolutely savage anything I throw at them, and I have nowhere near enough firepower to deal with them at T4 with a 5++. They really should lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, and either 1 point of Strength or Toughness. They would be very reasonable at that point.

I guess time will tell if Tzaangor spam becomes meta bending and is seen at the top tables in tournaments.

I also have problens against them, even when they were 9ppm in index, when my opponent run 6 10 guys squad in 6 Rhinos, followed by 3 DPs. I run marines, even bringing Guilliman, I got tabled within 5 turns. Because I have only 1 turn of shooting before they rush in my lines. If I go second, I have to destory mist of those rhinos followed by killing most of the Tzaangors falling out of the vehicles, which Marines, due to their units are being overcosted, cannot accomplished, at least for my list. So it is basically game over and a total one sided slaughter.

To add one example, the Repulsor, one of the most powerful Dakkadakka units in space marine codex (despite it costs around 300pts, it is one of those units with highest number of shots) With the best dakka configuration to deal with the hordes, vomits 24 Str5 shots, and 12+2D6 Str 4 shots when within 12 inches. Under the buff of Guilliman, one of the most infamous marine unit and being called "Too OP" repeatedly on internet, can ONLY kill 21 Tzaangors in total in one turn, worthy of only 189pts in index and 147pts in codex!!!!!

Now their codex drop the points to 7ppm? WTH???? In my opinion, they should be at least 10ppm to be at least being remotely fair.

No if you want dakka units to deal with tzaangors, you run aggressors with flames and just sit there and wait, stack 2 squads so they have to charge both, and enjoy flaming them with 24d6 flamer auto hits.

But that said, I do think tzaangors needs to drop to T3 and loose heretic astarties. Again, they should be better cultists, not better assault marines.

Aggressors with flames don't work for anything deepstriking with the 8" range on flamers.

Also with only 3 in a unit they don't cover enough space screen so you end up needing 3-4 units to properly screen anything (unless you literally only deploy in a corner and then you'll never get out of that corner to grab any objectives.)

Comparing anything to marine units at this time is a waste of breath as marines are a bottom tier codex. Charging a line of 10 guard in FRFSRF gets you 40 shots, 20 hits, 7 wounds, 2 saves for 5 dead tzangors (35 points) then the 40 points of guard dies then the tzangors die to return fire.

The bomb strategy is defeated by cheap screening units (nids/guard/CSM/demons/drones/sisters/scouts but not really) flyers (nids) or beta strike (CSM/commander spam/web way). Most armies have a way to protect themselves but those that don't will die terribly.

At 7 points they seem really cheap to me. I agree that the t4, 5++ and heretic keyword make them crazy powerful and 10-12 points should be where they land with t3, 5++ and no HA keyword but given GWs balancing track record I wouldn't be surprised to see them lowered in points to 5 and SM tacts raised to 15

I think the biggest issue is that they are t4...They need to be T3 at that price. Keywords in general I think need to be reworked - way too many stupid interactions going on with them to allow them to continue as is from a perspective of balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the biggest issue is that they are t4...They need to be T3 at that price. Keywords in general I think need to be reworked - way too many stupid interactions going on with them to allow them to continue as is from a perspective of balance.

This ultimately, key words are breaking the game in a very bad way

What's this? GW Wants 40k players to buy AoS models for this new codex they've just released?


Nothing to see here then...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
What's this? GW Wants 40k players to buy AoS models for this new codex they've just released?


Nothing to see here then...

Thing is these models have always existed, and at these stats but iirc they got a point drop and they have stupid good synergy they are just a little much.

But I agree that GW is trying to get their AoS stuff sold

 Backspacehacker wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
What's this? GW Wants 40k players to buy AoS models for this new codex they've just released?


Nothing to see here then...

Thing is these models have always existed, and at these stats but iirc they got a point drop and they have stupid good synergy they are just a little much.

But I agree that GW is trying to get their AoS stuff sold

Yeah, it is pretty tragic and pitiful.

"Buy them now before we nerf them into oblivion like Conscripts!"

I honestly feel bad for our local Sons player who just wanted to be able to have a decent game while fielding Rubrics as the core of his army.

Man that's all I wanted was core rubrics but they are SOOOO expensive for core. I only run 2 squads of them, and then a 30 man gore blob


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The real crime is SoT