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Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I work in an industry that works with High School students. Due to that, I get to see and hear a lot of marketing data about this group. Recently, I came across these two bits of data that I wanted to share. This is for US High Schools, so I wonder if this is true for other Countries as well.


Q. I fit in with the people at my school

2010= 67%
2017= 50%

Q. I like going to school

2010= 63%
2017= 45%

This data is especially interesting as that despite these numbers, Graduation Rates are at the highest point of 80%+. 60% of whom go on to college.

There have been big changes in the "culture" of High School in essentially two generations of HS students. I find these trends alarming for a number of reasons but kids are still graduating. Let's chat about what this data means, what is behind these drops in score, and what if anything can/should be done? I would also be interested in seeing other data/articles on this subject.



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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Is the sample representative? How large is the sample size?

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

We are seeing a lot of culture war bubbles forming in every part of society. I suspect the first question has a lot to do with that. Perhaps the second one does, too. Or perhaps the overworked system is trickling the stress and fatigue down to the students now.

   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






When I was in High School the school pushed college HARD. If you graduated and went to a community college, or *gasp* didn't go to college at all, that was regarded as a failure and the person an idiot. Suffice it to say that wasn't and isn't the best mentality. So much stress and so much debt result, all for an education that simply doesn't buy what it used to. Not to mention that classes like how to manage money, how to pay taxes, how to be an adult... all left out for students to learn the proper structure of a Shakespearian sonnet.

I feel like the stronger part of our school system lies in how students are taught the basics of Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. It's simple stuff anyone can understand and makes for a good basis of knowledge that society benefits from people having.

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Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

Shrinking school budget, slashing of extra curricular activities, crowded schools, increasing social difficulties brought on by social media, a lack of purpose and belonging, culture wars from the adults trickling down to the students, there's a ton more reasons. A lot of kids are sold this idealized version of high school on TV and the real thing is very different. Not just inner city schools either, even the rural ones are getting a bit rougher.

I graduated in 2010 and a lot of that stuff was just starting to be noticeable. I can't imagine going to high school now, you hear all kinds of crazy stuff these days. Maybe I'm seeing it somewhat biased with rose tinted glasses, but it definitely feels like the average high school student has way more to deal with these days.

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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

I wonder if "fitting in" is considered a positive thing or a negative thing to the kids who responded to the questionnaire. Particular cultural shifts that began even when I was still in high school and have only become more prevalent seem to suggest that not fitting in is the desired condition to achieve.

Also, I wouldn't want to go to school in the current climate either. Back in the old days you used to be able to feth off a little. I hear about police stationed in schools now and metal detectors and stuff like that and it sounds like a prison.

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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

Comparing two years doesn’t demonstrate a trend, and you’d have to consider the methodology, sample size and the like.

My experience gives me the impression the biggest change isn’t in schools, which are more tolerant and inclusive to the point of mollycoddling, but social media and use of mobile phones. Kids are bombarded with contact from friends and people their own and and those in school who are not friends, or even people they like.

Years ago you only communicated with actual school friends outside of school. Now kids are networked with a large number of people from school all the time. And they risk isolation if they avoid going online. Bullying is rife, it’s plainly obvious. Most bullying now takes place online, either exclusively or in addition to in person.
   
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Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I am going to assume that the marketing people who did the survey, knew enough about what they were doing to do the basics right.

The focus group of Principals I watched stated that the following things were strongly on kids minds:

1. Stress to achieve
2. Violence/Bullying
3. Gender Issues
4. Political Disunity

Notice, these were Principals and not students themselves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/14 19:27:55


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Beijing

I really don’t think ‘gender issues’ are a concern for anything than a tiny minority of students much like it is with adults.
   
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Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

There really isn't any discussion worth having with such a limited and meaningless amount of data.
   
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Easy E wrote:
I am going to assume that the marketing people who did the survey, knew enough about what they were doing to do the basics right.
No linky? That's a pretty big assumption to make. At a guess I'd say more than half of odd looking poll results come down to poor methodology.

The focus group of Principals I watched stated that the following things were strongly on kids minds:

1. Stress to achieve
2. Violence/Bullying
3. Gender Issues
4. Political Disunity

Notice, these were Principals and not students themselves.

So same stuff kids have been dealing with since forever.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Except the impact seems to be different in the survey data. <Shock!>

Also, this data is not something in a public press release, it was only internal marketing data from the % of schools my company works with all across the United States. I am open to see whatever data anyone else has on the topic.

If you want to say it isn't true or is flawed, I will believe you if you show me something different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/14 20:45:37


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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






If you'll allow me to engage in a bit of pop psychology, social media definitely makes sense as a major culprit for stress and anxiety. The amount of social pressure added to the high school environment when you feel like you have to maintain a social media presence, but also are under pressure to say things people will like without causing a scandal or attracting undesirable attention, has got to be significant. Especially when anyone can say anything about you and have it be seen by practically everyone you know.

 
   
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Shrinking school budget, slashing of extra curricular activities, crowded schools, increasing social difficulties brought on by social media, a lack of purpose and belonging, culture wars from the adults trickling down to the students, there's a ton more reasons. A lot of kids are sold this idealized version of high school on TV and the real thing is very different. Not just inner city schools either, even the rural ones are getting a bit rougher.

I graduated in 2010 and a lot of that stuff was just starting to be noticeable. I can't imagine going to high school now, you hear all kinds of crazy stuff these days. Maybe I'm seeing it somewhat biased with rose tinted glasses, but it definitely feels like the average high school student has way more to deal with these days.


I finished highschool in 1996. I remember people saying the exact same thing - that school got so much rougher after that. It's just a product of the difference between outside of the situation and only hearing about the really bad things, and being inside the situation and knowing that the dominant experience is actually just day to day tedium.

Highschool has never been easy. I mean, you get stuck with a bunch of teenagers who have the social skills and morals of a bunch of teenagers, and all you have to handle the situation are the social skills of a teenager.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Years ago you only communicated with actual school friends outside of school. Now kids are networked with a large number of people from school all the time. And they risk isolation if they avoid going online. Bullying is rife, it’s plainly obvious. Most bullying now takes place online, either exclusively or in addition to in person.


On-line media has changed things, but people have to be careful when looking at bullying. It's worth remembering that its only now, finally, that there is an expectation that something should be done about bullies. When I went to school bullying was accepted. The idea that you'd tell an adult about a bully was seen as pointless, that they'd just make it worse, somehow. If a kid was bullied people honest to God said they should just ignore it, and other similar ridiculous bs. The result was kids just suffered through years of bullying, and their grades suffered and they developed life long scars. And of course some killed themselves.

These days things are a million miles from perfect, but at least there's an idea that schools should be active in stopping bullies, up to the point of expelling kids. It doesn't mean bullying has ended, but it does mean we are aware of a lot more instances of bullying, and view them through the lens of seeing the school and greater society's responsibility. Which can make it feel like there's more bullying than there used to be, when in truth there's always been bullying, we just used to ignore it and deny our responsibility for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I really don’t think ‘gender issues’ are a concern for anything than a tiny minority of students much like it is with adults.


Except a lot of kids will use that tiny minority as part of a culture war. Some kids will oppose increasing acceptance, other kids will fight for greater acceptance. They will consider themselves hopelessly divided from their opponents, while loving the feeling of being on moral crusade.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/15 06:09:30


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Bristol

 sebster wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I really don’t think ‘gender issues’ are a concern for anything than a tiny minority of students much like it is with adults.


Except a lot of kids will use that tiny minority as part of a culture war. Some kids will oppose increasing acceptance, other kids will fight for greater acceptance. They will consider themselves hopelessly divided from their opponents, while loving the feeling of being on moral crusade.


Also, just because the majority of kids will turn out to be cisgender (gender matches biological sex), doesn't mean those that are cisgender haven't worried about it. The majority of kids are straight but that doesn't mean those straight kids didn't worry they might be homosexual when they had romantic feelings for their same-sex best friend for a while. High school is a time of huge change for young people. Their bodies are constantly changing, their moods are swinging, they're being exposed to a huge array of new emotions and experiences.

They're still trying to work out who they are, including their gender identity and sexuality, at a time when it can seem like who they are changes from week to week.

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Plus, it's hardly a tiny minority. Current estimates for the transgender population are something like ~1% of people (plus ~10% who are gay/bisexual, if you count that in "gender issues"). That's a decent-sized minority who are directly affected, plus a lot more people who are their friends and have a significant investment in the subject. If your best friend is getting bullied for their (real or accused) LGBT status it's probably going to make you pretty unhappy as well. Even without counting political involvement by people who have no personal stake in the question but feel it's the right thing to do that's a significant percentage of the students that are going to have "gender issues" on their minds.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

I think simplistic but honest answer is that digital media, online and all has just intensified everything.

Bipartisan politics is now more cut throat than ever. Kids are more knowing and hooked up than ever. They know police issues alot better than any previous era.

Theres more and more pressure for college and such. Economics too. There are so many places to learn now vs before.

Everything just been dialed to 11. Everything is more connected. More known.
Life is more complicated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 12:14:19


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Sweden

Plus, there's a bunch of teenage boys that have no respect for anyone but themselves. High School girls have to deal with behaviour from these that would never fly in a workplace.

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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Plus, there's a bunch of teenage boys that have no respect for anyone but themselves. High School girls have to deal with behaviour from these that would never fly in a workplace.


Aye I'm glad I went to school when I did...

I was bullied and all but the whole cyber stuff had yet to fully realise. The whole digital age was about just not quite turned as nasty as it has now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 12:33:31


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 jhe90 wrote:
I think simplistic but honest answer is that digital media, online and all has just intensified everything.

Bipartisan politics is now more cut throat than ever. Kids are more knowing and hooked up than ever. They know police issues alot better than any previous era.

Theres more and more pressure for college and such. Economics too. There are so many places to learn now vs before.

Everything just been dialed to 11. Everything is more connected. More known.
Life is more complicated.


I'd argue that kids are actually somewhat more unwillingly ignorant than ever before, precisely because it's all been dialled up to 11.

Look at the abject nonsense that's been gaining traction recently. Gwyneth Paltrow's frankly hatstand food company. David 'Avocado' Wolfe extolling his snake oil, because apparently, unlike the self-proclaimed World's Richest Hippy, Big Pharma are only in it for the money. Flat Earth. Red Pill. Young Earth Creationism. Anti-Vaxx. All that dross and dreck made possible by the internet and social media. Then there's the scourge of Youtube 'influencers'. That stuff is insipid, seriously.

Think back to when you were a kid. Pretty sure that, like me, you weren't very discerning when it came to fact checking. If something matches your world view, you accept it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 12:33:31


   
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
I think simplistic but honest answer is that digital media, online and all has just intensified everything.

Bipartisan politics is now more cut throat than ever. Kids are more knowing and hooked up than ever. They know police issues alot better than any previous era.

Theres more and more pressure for college and such. Economics too. There are so many places to learn now vs before.

Everything just been dialed to 11. Everything is more connected. More known.
Life is more complicated.


I'd argue that kids are actually somewhat more unwillingly ignorant than ever before, precisely because it's all been dialled up to 11.

Look at the abject nonsense that's been gaining traction recently. Gwyneth Paltrow's frankly hatstand food company. David 'Avocado' Wolfe extolling his snake oil, because apparently, unlike the self-proclaimed World's Richest Hippy, Big Pharma are only in it for the money. Flat Earth. Red Pill. Young Earth Creationism. Anti-Vaxx. All that dross and dreck made possible by the internet and social media. Then there's the scourge of Youtube 'influencers'. That stuff is insipid, seriously.

Think back to when you were a kid. Pretty sure that, like me, you weren't very discerning when it came to fact checking. If something matches your world view, you accept it.


Agreed.

Add the viriliant and toxic policial and other climates.
There just lapping up the poison the rest of the older generations dropped and taking it firther.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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What baffles me is that the 'alternative view' numpties like Wolfe can bag followers with the 'don't trust everything you're told', but avoid self-same criticism in turn.

I mean, that guy isn't just loopy (chocolate is an octave of sun energy, apparently. And sea water, if desalinated, would levitate away from earth), but an outright danger with the twaddle he peddles and charges through the nose for.

I think it's good that people are kind of realising just how ignorant we are as individuals. But that that's being preyed upon by shills? Not cool.

   
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Easy E wrote:
Except the impact seems to be different in the survey data. <Shock!>
It's important to know how the data is collected, and a proper in depth analysis of it rather than just throwing out some percentages.

We're these the exact same schools? Which schools were they? What is the socioeconomic cross section of schools that were tested? Was it the same cross section tested both times? What year level? Was it the same year levels? How many students across how many schools were tested? What was the selection criteria? What was the gender split among respondents and was it the same for both surveys?

Then you can have other factors like what migh be affecting their responses, e.g. are the kids actually liking school less or are they just answering the survey that way due to other reasons?

I'm not saying I think kids have it easy these days, but I also think kids have always had it hard. I am very critical of any survey data because it's so easy to bs the numbers to get the answer you want instead of something representative. I'm not an expert in such studies but I have had to read critical reviews of survey data and it's interesting to see how much potential there is for bias even in peer reviewed published data, let alone some dude telling me on a forum that kids are less happy with school these days because of some unpublished data.

If you want to say it isn't true or is flawed, I will believe you if you show me something different.
Its a good thing that's not how this actually works. Without providing any information on the study the only possible discussion is going to be wishy washy opinion with no solid grounding.

I have a study that says zombie attacks are up by 30%. It's not published though. If you want to say it isn't true or is flawed, I will believe you if you show me something different.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/15 23:51:25


 
   
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Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

As far as we know, the responses are influenced by the teachers having sex with the students. Some are enjoying having sex with their teachers, but many don’t like it. So they don’t feel like they fit in and therefore they don’t like going to school.

That’s the problem with the data we got, the “teachers fetching students” scenario is just as likely as any other reason based on a simple set of numbers with no methodology and no data to actually place it in any kind of context.
   
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What about content of classes? I hated so much of my required clases. But I was required to take them being taught by boring teachers. Like, I never got the fun classes.

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Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 d-usa wrote:
As far as we know, the responses are influenced by the teachers having sex with the students. Some are enjoying having sex with their teachers, but many don’t like it. So they don’t feel like they fit in and therefore they don’t like going to school.

That’s the problem with the data we got, the “teachers fetching students” scenario is just as likely as any other reason based on a simple set of numbers with no methodology and no data to actually place it in any kind of context.


Here is some other data you guys will gladly gobble up...

https://ac.els-cdn.com/S1877042811027728/1-s2.0-S1877042811027728-main.pdf?_tid=08caaea8-1324-11e8-a3af-00000aab0f27&acdnat=1518790792_fedbbe5ee898b72fd175eb2dd4ed2fc3

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/dropout/ind_sp.asp

.... now, I look forward to your thoughts.....




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Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

So you guys got briefed on 10 year old data?

Are you using research from 2009 to explain why the responses changed from 2010 to 2017?

Did teachers have less sex with students before Obama was President?

If you are just going to fling a random set of numbers around, then throw up surveys from the last decade that may or may not have anything to do with your other set of numbers, just let us know what the end game is. Because so far we got a bunch of useless data followed by random studies that happened before the data was even collected.
   
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Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

If you don't want to talk about the topic, just stop. Really, it is easy. OT is consensual and a NO, means No here.

Regarding the data in the first post, it was just a way to start conversation on the topic. In fact, the OP asks you.... the reader.... to contribute more data if you wish. I acknowledge that my sample set is limited and that it is "Marketing Data" and not SCIENCE!

It looks like you just want to throw bombs from the sidelines. Come on D. I know you are better than that. If you have something to say about the issue, say it. There is no Endgame. It feels like you may have been scarred by too many political threads on the internet bro.

This is just a gathering of opinions and discussions of those opinions on the topic, not a congressional hearing. I honestly wnat to know if people have ideas about what can be done to help students that appear to be not enjoying a big part of their life. I am honestly not trying to pull a "gotcha" moment.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 14:45:52


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Leerstetten, Germany

Well, the original post was about “data”, what does the “data” mean and how can we change the outcome. So the original post makes it seem like a serious discussion based on “data”, and in that regard there is no problem pointing out that the “data” is basically useless.

If it’s a simple “kids are less happy that they were before” question, it didn’t need all the data talk. And even then it’s still a somewhat useless question because “kids are more unhappy, how can we fix that” is not a useful question without any indication about what is driving the change in responses.

That’s why people, or at least why I, keep on asking for more data from the actual research that produced the numbers in the post. A change in response alone is not a very good driver for useful discussion, and it just results in random guesses and speculations.

So I guess kids are less happy now because more kids have peanut allergies and they can’t bring homemade PB&Js to school. That decreases their happiness, makes them feel like they can’t fit in with classmates who have allergies, but wouldn’t affect graduation rates. So it explains every number from the original question.
   
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SoCal

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What about content of classes? I hated so much of my required clases. But I was required to take them being taught by boring teachers. Like, I never got the fun classes.


In my experience, that tends to happen a lot when the lesson plans and timing are dictated to the teachers. I've known a lot of teachers who came into the classroom full of fun, fresh ways to approach the material who ended up reading power points and teaching to the tests.

   
 
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