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So has anyone else faced 12 carnafexs with old one eye and 9 biovores.

Whats a good list to combat it. They get hard to hit and cover from ranged weapons all the time pretty much and carry heavy venom cannons.

I took 3 fire prisms and 3 serpents with bright lances and failed hard.

vaurapung wrote:
So has anyone else faced 12 carnafexs with old one eye and 9 biovores.

Whats a good list to combat it. They get hard to hit and cover from ranged weapons all the time pretty much and carry heavy venom cannons.

I took 3 fire prisms and 3 serpents with bright lances and failed hard.

You play Eldar? What is your typical list like?

As most will say Dark Reapers are screens will help.

Warning I am not a Eldar player by a long shot, just play against them a lot.

I have grav tanks, wraith units and gaurdians.

The carnafex list has ripped through our other players too. Its so focused on the heavy units and 3 of them get to deep strike.

vaurapung wrote:
I have grav tanks, wraith units and gaurdians.

The carnafex list has ripped through our other players too. Its so focused on the heavy units and 3 of them get to deep strike.

Uhhh three of them get to what? The only way to DS a fex is with a Tyrranocyte, and it can only carry a single monster ...

Get a Alaitoc flier or two to delete the biovores, then kite the Carnifexes around.

Yeah this is my carnival list I run. If you don't have a lot of heavy weapons your in for a rough ride.


+++ Carnival (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [106 PL, 1999pts] +++

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kronos

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores: 2x Biovore

Carnifexes
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots

Carnifexes
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots

+ HQ +

Neurothrope

Neurothrope

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kraken

+ Heavy Support +

Carnifexes
. Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts, Toxin Sacs, Tusks
. Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts, Toxin Sacs, Tusks

Carnifexes
. Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts, Toxin Sacs, Tusks
. Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Spore Cysts, Toxin Sacs, Tusks

Carnifexes
. Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts, Tusks

+ HQ +

Neurothrope

Old One Eye: Monstrous Scything Talons

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kronos

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores: 3x Biovore

Biovores: 3x Biovore

Biovores: 3x Biovore

+ HQ +

Neurothrope: Warlord, Warlord Trait: Soul Hunger

Neurothrope

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Yep, thats about what i seen and i had 8 brightlances and 3 fire prisms on the feild.

Oh yeah, he got first turn which could change a lot. Its kinda sad that first turn (determined by a random dice) has so much impact on who can win.

Is there a stratagem for deep striking some units for nids. He was talking about how the fluff describes them just like graboids now. Burrowing underground for the constant cover and the smoke for hard to hit. He was only able to deepstrike one unit whatever he did and im assuming it was in the chapter approved book or he would have done it months ago.

vaurapung wrote:
Yep, thats about what i seen and i had 8 brightlances and 3 fire prisms on the feild.

Oh yeah, he got first turn which could change a lot. Its kinda sad that first turn (determined by a random dice) has so much impact on who can win.

Is there a stratagem for deep striking some units for nids. He was talking about how the fluff describes them just like graboids now. Burrowing underground for the constant cover and the smoke for hard to hit. He was only able to deepstrike one unit whatever he did and im assuming it was in the chapter approved book or he would have done it months ago.

Dude, there is nothing to DS a Carnifex short of a Tyrranocyte, which is a giant drop pod and it can only drop a single Carnifex, not a unit of them. He's either being shady or not reading his Stratagem closely. The Hive fleet you describe with the cover bonus is Jormungandr. Jormungandr can deepstrike INFANTRY units alongside any of the normal burrowing units, ie Mawlocs, Trygons, Raveners. I'm about to check my codex again, but I'm pretty sure if I could DS Carnifexes without using drop pods that cost more than the Carnifexes, I'd be doing it with my Stonecrushers already.

Is that board even 48" deep or are my eyes deceiving me? Armies look so close to eachother

Both of his defensive bonuses are lost in melee and those fexes have no melee capabilities or any way to retreat and shoot.

I think that the counter to that list is obvious.

Also, deepstriking fexes is impossible without a Tcyte.

Edit: Yeah no, i thought they were all dakka fexes, but he has some melee fexes in there. This actually makes it harder, but assault is still the way, terminator equivalent models in particular are the best solution.
In the case of Eldar getting a couple of wraithguards or wraithblades in serpents will solve it. Or spam dark reapers... but that is an answer to everything...

I dont have the books here at work but ill look at them tonight. He had first turn is there an infiltrate or scout stratagem he could have used. His book and chapter aprroved are at the club and i can look through them tonight but being that he didnt do this till now im banking on it being something in chapter approved that allowed the DS fexs.

And on a side note even a wraithlord can not toe to toe with a fex. Guard is doable but after one kill they will surely die from the double assault.

I can tell the Nid player was misreading the Jorgamundur strategem which is limited to infantry.

vaurapung wrote:
I dont have the books here at work but ill look at them tonight. He had first turn is there an infiltrate or scout stratagem he could have used. His book and chapter aprroved are at the club and i can look through them tonight but being that he didnt do this till now im banking on it being something in chapter approved that allowed the DS fexs.

And on a side note even a wraithlord can not toe to toe with a fex. Guard is doable but after one kill they will surely die from the double assault.

There is nothing close to this for nids, for carnifexes. Probebly just an honest missplay though.

The jhormunghard stratagem can be found on page 120 of the nid codex, it is called enemy bellow. It allows a worm unit to tunnel inn any number of infantery units for 1 cp per unit. He can use this stratagem multiple times. (Remember to start 50% on board)

Sounds like what he said he done. I dodnt read his plays close but that means our next game may be a little less one sided. Me and him will go over and reread his stratagy just like we did one of mine.

Carnifex seems like a pretty viable tactic. One of my friends plays with 4-5 of them most of the time in a Kraken detachment for abusing their mortal wounds on the charge and to reposition as necessary. He drops a Trygon or two and some Gaunts and Genestealers to draw attention for the 2 turns you need to get the Carnifexes into combat. It seems to work pretty darn well. I think you could pull it off with even more Screamers and batter enemy lines with reckless abandon.

Carnifexes are really cheesy and need point bumps for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Carnifexes are really cheesy and need point bumps for sure.

Yes.. thats why you see them in all the lists.. not. They actually dont get played as much as you think, they are good, but not over priced in any way. They are easy to deal with.

Relatively easy, at least. I think you could pretty easily get 8 of them in a list with ample forward support, a Malanthrope, etc. When they're probably going to hit your lines by the second turn, that might not be so great. I don't think they're overcosted, but for the cost, they're pretty durable.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Carnifexes are really cheesy and need point bumps for sure.

Yes.. thats why you see them in all the lists.. not. They actually dont get played as much as you think, they are good, but not over priced in any way. They are easy to deal with.

Not for marines. They outshoot marines handily.

Martel732 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Carnifexes are really cheesy and need point bumps for sure.

Yes.. thats why you see them in all the lists.. not. They actually dont get played as much as you think, they are good, but not over priced in any way. They are easy to deal with.

Not for marines. They outshoot marines handily.

Just b.c the Marines codex is bad doesnt mean others are too good. IMO the SM codex needs to be re-done.

I'm just refuting the "they are easy to deal with" claim. I know marines are bad. Although I've seem them outshoot admech, CSM, and GK as well.

Yeah but to say they are OP bc 1 army has a hard time isnt valid.

Thats like me saying "Well they are too weak b.c my DE and CWE kills them to easily".

I've seen Nids lose to IG and Eldar regularly. Everyone else is getting curb stomped.

If you can't kill toughness 6 monsters with 8 wounds then you need to rewrite your list.

2 Storm Ravens with deep-striking Smashbeast rerolls will expect to deal ~27 wounds in shooting to the Carnifexes. Then descent of angels to kill another one handsomely.

You're killing half of his Carnifex alone right there before they even shoot anything. If you have fire raptors the scenario is a bit better for you. His remaining Carnifex expected shooting would not even degrade one storm raven in response. And you've invested far less points than he has to bring this counter.

I'm assuming you'd have screens and some long range shooting in the rest of your army, too. It is entirely possible you kill all the Carnifex before they even shoot with marines.

My GK list would handle this with laughable ease, and GK suck.

Fexes are T7 now, I thought.

BA don't usually bring ravens anymore. Because they aren't very good after the changes.

vaurapung wrote:So has anyone else faced 12 carnafexs with old one eye and 9 biovores.

Whats a good list to combat it. They get hard to hit and cover from ranged weapons all the time pretty much and carry heavy venom cannons.

I took 3 fire prisms and 3 serpents with bright lances and failed hard.

That particular build is basically designed to counter elite gunlines, so trying to leverage more high quality firepower to outshoot them is just playing to their strengths. Instead, focus on objectives if possible and look towards melee as a means to counter, even if it is just ramming skimmers into them to tie up the shooting 'fexes for a turn. Carnifexes can't fall back and shoot so getting into melee cuts down on return fire and their melee capabilities are extremely poor if they take two pairs of guns, plus all of their defensive tech only applies against shooting. In melee you're looking at a Rhino equivalent that trades 2 wounds for WS4+.

As far as melee-centric Carnifexes go, apart from Old One Eye they desperately need to get the charge for max damage potential. Ideally you will want fast assault units with good AP access like Harlequins to deal with them. Deep Strike should also be kept in mind, since the list is so focused on single model units it doesn't have much (if any) bubble wrap capabilities to protect its damage dealers.

vaurapung wrote:
Is there a stratagem for deep striking some units for nids. He was talking about how the fluff describes them just like graboids now. Burrowing underground for the constant cover and the smoke for hard to hit. He was only able to deepstrike one unit whatever he did and im assuming it was in the chapter approved book or he would have done it months ago.

Tyranids did not get anything in chapter approved at all since it came out shortly after their codex did. Assuming they weren't just flagrantly cheating, he probably misread the Jormungandr "The Enemy Below" stratagem which requires a tunneling creature (Raveners, Trygons, Mawlocs) to use as the placement point and only works on Infantry.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yeah this is my carnival list I run. If you don't have a lot of heavy weapons your in for a rough ride.

I might be mistaken, but I'm getting 2039 points for your list, not 1999. Might want to double check your points.

Tyranid player here.

You are in better shape in this match up than you think you are.

Carnifexes, Neurothropes, and Biovores are all good units and the list that you describe is strong, but not broken.

As others have pointed out, there is no way for him to deep strike Carnifexes except for using the Tyrannocyte, which is a big foot ball shaped drop pod style unit. Furthermore, the Tyrannocyte can only carry one monstrous creature, and costs minimum 123 points. So in order for him to deep strike a Carnifex, he has to pay 123 points for taxi to bring it in. The Tyrannocyte is not a bad unit-it can move, has guns, claims objectives, has a 12 wounds, so forth, so bringing one isn't necessarily a bad idea, but if your opponent was using one you would know and have told us.

Instead, he is likely misreading the Jorgmundr Hive Fleet strat, which lets the snake bodied units (Mawlocks and Trygons, both large monsters on oval bases, and Raveners, mediums sized bugs on terminator bases) function similar to a drop pod and bring in infantry units when they arrive. Carnifexes cannot do this, but it is likely that he made a mistake instead of trying to cheat.

With the army you posted, you should take advantage of your strengths. You are faster than he is and you shoot better. Move away from his units, pick the nearest Venom Cannon 'fex, shoot it till it dies, rinse, repeat. You should reasonably be able to kill two 'fexes a turn, and once you kill all of the shooty Carnifexes he is going to struggle to get close enough to hurt you. You basically ignore the Biovores (they should be out of line of sight anyway) and the Neurothropes until you kill the Carnifexes.

Another option is to charge the Carnifexes. Carnifexes hit hard, but even the melee builds don't put out a lot of attacks. A big unit of Guardians can hold one in place for a few turns, and if he brings more in to attack them it works for you because they are not charging your vehicles. Furthermore, Eldar CC units have a very good chance of strait out killing a Carnifex if they get to swing first. In the first few turns those Guardians are going to do reasonable amounts of damage-T6 3+ 8W only goes so far.

If you want to adjust your list, I recommend fast CC and Dark Reapers.

His fexes were all the same loadout. One heavy venom cannon, a pair of talons and the tail mace.

After discussing his deep strike and thinking about how i could have used my list differently i think our next game will be a lot more even.

I really feel my worst mistake though was having all my tanks center feild. If i had placed them on left and right then phantasm'd that would give me a big plus.

Thank you all for the replies and discussion its been really helpful.