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I am trying to work out the tactics and fluff for an army centred on a Super Heavy Detachment of Imperial Knights.

AdMech is an obvious choice from the fluff side.
Assassins seem like a good choice from the tactical side.
Space Marines seem like a versatile choice.

Out of the Space Marines, I seem to be split between three chapters:
Iron Hands: These seem to have the best fluff tie-in with Imperial Knights, in the same way as AdMech
Raven Guard: The stealth/hit&run tactics seem like they would be good in a similar way to the Assassins
Grey Knights: Provides a nice knight-theme for the whole list.

Since I'm not particularly conversant with any of the rules post 3rd edition, I'm a bit lost on the playability of each of these pairings... Which would you choose? Or is there a better pairing?

Is IK the only army you have? And how are they painted?

Techpriests can fix Knights, Techmarines can't. Note that - at least in the AM book, I don't have the AdMech book - techpriests can only fix 1 wound per turn on Knights, so they're probably not necessary.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is IK the only army you have? And how are they painted?

I have a smattering of marines, largely unpainted, some eldar, mostly painted, and a handful of tau... but they’re all in storage on another continent and I probably can’t access them until December :(

For the sake of argument, let’s say that I have no miniatures at all.

1) Assassins are a bad choice for any army. Only play them if you really like the models.

2) What your army needs is single-wound infantry with objective secured. Any army with less than 50-60 models will struggle to compete on scenario. The best ally faction for your knights is probably Imperial Guard. Bring a commander + psyker + 6 infantry squads or something like that.

3) A good choice for any army is space marine scouts. Don't give them any equipment, save for perhaps a magic sword for the sergeant. Deploy them forward to push deepstrikes away, to keep plasma spam out of rapid-fire range, and to charge shooty things or transports. And remember that they are sacrificial units. They are not there to kill, they are there to annoy your opponent and die.

4) Grey Knights are weak, but probably less weak in a list where a knight or two will soak up a lot of the multi-damage shooting.

Annirak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is IK the only army you have? And how are they painted?

I have a smattering of marines, largely unpainted, some eldar, mostly painted, and a handful of tau... but they’re all in storage on another continent and I probably can’t access them until December :(

For the sake of argument, let’s say that I have no miniatures at all.

I was just wondering if you'd be open to playing the Knights as renegade knights, becoming chaos gives you access to much better psychic powers and stratagems as well as pre-FAQ comissar-conscript combos and all of the other amazing stuff that chaos offers.

pismakron wrote:1) Assassins are a bad choice for any army. Only play them if you really like the models.

2) What your army needs is single-wound infantry with objective secured. Any army with less than 50-60 models will struggle to compete on scenario. The best ally faction for your knights is probably Imperial Guard. Bring a commander + psyker + 6 infantry squads or something like that.

3) A good choice for any army is space marine scouts. Don't give them any equipment, save for perhaps a magic sword for the sergeant. Deploy them forward to push deepstrikes away, to keep plasma spam out of rapid-fire range, and to charge shooty things or transports. And remember that they are sacrificial units. They are not there to kill, they are there to annoy your opponent and die.

4) Grey Knights are weak, but probably less weak in a list where a knight or two will soak up a lot of the multi-damage shooting.

I would have thought that an Eversor would be good at dealing with massed infantry, while a Vindicare would be good for taking out characters. Again, though I haven’t looked at those rules since the 1999 assassins codex.

I’m not good at painting large numbers of small models, so IG is out of the question. Tactically, I’m sure it’s a sound choice, but if I do that, the Knights will never see battle :( .

I could see a small number of SM scouts being interesting.

The Imperial Knights + Grey Knights combo has something whimsical about it that I really like.

I also like the idea of using a landspeeder and one or more whirlwinds with data link telemetry, but that seems redundant with an IK army.

mrhappyface wrote:

Annirak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is IK the only army you have? And how are they painted?

I have a smattering of marines, largely unpainted, some eldar, mostly painted, and a handful of tau... but they’re all in storage on another continent and I probably can’t access them until December :(

For the sake of argument, let’s say that I have no miniatures at all.

I was just wondering if you'd be open to playing the Knights as renegade knights, becoming chaos gives you access to much better psychic powers and stratagems as well as pre-FAQ comissar-conscript combos and all of the other amazing stuff that chaos offers.

I’ve never been a fan of chaos. Tactics aside, I just don’t like the style and the fluff.

For me, building an army is partly about the fluff, partly about the models and the styling, and partly about the tactics.

I can get behind AdMech and Iron Hands from a fluff and model perspective. I can get behind assassins and Raven Guard from a tactics and model perspective.

I wonder if Grey Knights may be the sweet spot with all three. The fluff seems a bit stretched, though since IK shouldn’t even know the GK exist.

Eversor and Culexus have both seen play in several competative lists. I'd hardly call them trash.

Annirak wrote:
I’ve never been a fan of chaos. Tactics aside, I just don’t like the style and the fluff.

I've never understood this argument, the fluff and style of a chaos army is so unbelievably varied that it should be impossible to not like any of them. If you're not a fan of the whole corrupted and daemonic aesthetic than there are many legions and warbands that act more like Space Marine chapters as well as Renegades that still use the same military organisation as the Imperium. Chaos is quite literally a maelstorm that encompasses any play style, any modeling/painting style and almost any fluff background.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Annirak wrote:
I’ve never been a fan of chaos. Tactics aside, I just don’t like the style and the fluff.

I've never understood this argument, the fluff and style of a chaos army is so unbelievably varied that it should be impossible to not like any of them. If you're not a fan of the whole corrupted and daemonic aesthetic than there are many legions and warbands that act more like Space Marine chapters as well as Renegades that still use the same military organisation as the Imperium. Chaos is quite literally a maelstorm that encompasses any play style, any modeling/painting style and almost any fluff background.

How about this, then... Building a Renegade Knight/Chaos army just doesn't excite me. An Imperial Knight + Space Marine army does. Sorry that I can't explain it better than that.

I could see a plausible Renegade Knight/Tau alliance being an interesting fluff piece, what with the Tau's penchant for diplomacy, but I don't think the rules allow it.

It depends.

Mechanicus is pretty fluffy, and includes stratagems to go with Knights if they have the QUESTOR MECHANICUS keyword (which all the knights in their codex do).

It also saves you from buying another codex.

Annirak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Annirak wrote:
I’ve never been a fan of chaos. Tactics aside, I just don’t like the style and the fluff.

I've never understood this argument, the fluff and style of a chaos army is so unbelievably varied that it should be impossible to not like any of them. If you're not a fan of the whole corrupted and daemonic aesthetic than there are many legions and warbands that act more like Space Marine chapters as well as Renegades that still use the same military organisation as the Imperium. Chaos is quite literally a maelstorm that encompasses any play style, any modeling/painting style and almost any fluff background.

How about this, then... Building a Renegade Knight/Chaos army just doesn't excite me. An Imperial Knight + Space Marine army does. Sorry that I can't explain it better than that.

I could see a plausible Renegade Knight/Tau alliance being an interesting fluff piece, what with the Tau's penchant for diplomacy, but I don't think the rules allow it.

Hmmm, I will convert you to the dark side eventually!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It depends.

Mechanicus is pretty fluffy, and includes stratagems to go with Knights if they have the QUESTOR MECHANICUS keyword (which all the knights in their codex do).

It also saves you from buying another codex.

Haha, there's always the codex savings! I'm going to have to drop into the local Warhammer Shop and have a flip through the AdMech codex. I must admit that needing to pick up the BrB, both imperial indices AND codex: space marines is not exactly enticing... then again, AdMech is not much better at BrB + Imperial Index 2 + Codex Adeptus Mechanicus!

IG baneblades + IK seemed to work okay for me in a game I rencently played.

I know I’d have fun running an all-vehicle army with even say, Leman Russes + Knights, so I’d vote for IG - at least for casual, I’ve no idea or care competively.

Try this one.

'Hey, that's a really nice Imperial Knight army. Good job!'

Pretty cheap stratagem for what it does, really.

 Stormonu wrote:
IG baneblades + IK seemed to work okay for me in a game I rencently played.

I know I’d have fun running an all-vehicle army with even say, Leman Russes + Knights, so I’d vote for IG - at least for casual, I’ve no idea or care competively.

I'd considered using an air wing with Knights. Seems like fun. Also like what an advanced military would actually do.

Curious about why assassins are trash.

I'd stay away from vindicare but any of the others are great additions to an army.

Eversor - hard pressed to find 6 4++ wounds for 70 points anywhere (effective 12 t4 wounds) Not to mention the 8 CC attacks, 4 pistol shots hitting on 2s re-rolling wounds against infantry 3d6 charge distance and d3 wounds on death

Callidus - probably worth it alone for the 4+ +1 CP for enemy strats. A lot of armies are built around t1 strats and forcing them to pay 1 or 2 additional CPs can really mess up an enemies battle plan. The d6+3 deepstrike also causes enemies to castle even more (no more 18" deepstrike denial deployments). Causes a lot of problems strategically. Icing is the d3 mortal wounds assault 1 and no invuln save weapons (hello demons)

Culexus - anyone who doesn't understand why -2 to psychic tests and invulnerability to psychics is valuable to an army doesn't play against eldar/chaos. The 6+ to hit isn't as valuable under the new character targeting rules but being able to target enemy psychers with d6 s5 -4 shots will cause a lot of issues.

What am I missing?

We know we're getting a new Knight sometime this month. Maybe we'll also get some other units to field a full IK army. Doubtful, but possible. I've always wanted to see some form of support infantry for the knightly houses.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It depends.

Mechanicus is pretty fluffy, and includes stratagems to go with Knights if they have the QUESTOR MECHANICUS keyword (which all the knights in their codex do).

It also saves you from buying another codex.

Seconding this recommendation. AdMech Stratagems let you make a Knight subject to Canticles (give it cover on turn one, for instance), use the top-level profile while damaged, or give it a 5+ FNP during the Psychic phase to do something about smite-spam. The other thing to note is that Tech-Priests can only repair one Wound at a time on a Knight, but AdMech has access to Necromechanic (a Warlord Trait making your Dominus heal one extra wound whenever he heals anyone) and a Stratagem that lets them heal a unit twice, which means you could fix a Knight for four Wounds a turn.

The only thing you lose out of making your Knights Questor Mechanicus is the Forge World Knights, but all the plastic Knights are available to a Questor Mechanicus force.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It depends.

Mechanicus is pretty fluffy, and includes stratagems to go with Knights if they have the QUESTOR MECHANICUS keyword (which all the knights in their codex do).

It also saves you from buying another codex.

Seconding this recommendation. AdMech Stratagems let you make a Knight subject to Canticles (give it cover on turn one, for instance), use the top-level profile while damaged, or give it a 5+ FNP during the Psychic phase to do something about smite-spam. The other thing to note is that Tech-Priests can only repair one Wound at a time on a Knight, but AdMech has access to Necromechanic (a Warlord Trait making your Dominus heal one extra wound whenever he heals anyone) and a Stratagem that lets them heal a unit twice, which means you could fix a Knight for four Wounds a turn.

The only thing you lose out of making your Knights Questor Mechanicus is the Forge World Knights, but all the plastic Knights are available to a Questor Mechanicus force.

Some of the forge world Knights models seem pretty nice. Are they more poseable than the plastic? All the plastic ones seem to have exactly the same leg pose.

Annirak wrote:
Some of the forge world Knights models seem pretty nice. Are they more possible than the plastic? All the plastic ones seem to have exactly the same leg pose.

It's very fiddly to do; since they're much bigger than the plastic ones and putting them together either requires super glue (which is a right pain to use compared to plastic glue with plastic models) or pinning them, which is in itself fiddly. But yes, if you have patience then you can pose them. My knight Lancer is currently standing triumphantly over some fleeing Guardsmen, with one foot perched atop a felled Sentinel.

The Renegade Knight Conclave seems a quite good option. (I don't see anything renegade-y about any of the individual components).

 EnTyme wrote:
We know we're getting a new Knight sometime this month. Maybe we'll also get some other units to field a full IK army. Doubtful, but possible. I've always wanted to see some form of support infantry for the knightly houses.

Scions and Taurox Primes are a pretty good aesthetic (and tabletop) complement to knights.

Annirak wrote:
I am trying to work out the tactics and fluff for an army centred on a Super Heavy Detachment of Imperial Knights.

AdMech is an obvious choice from the fluff side.
Assassins seem like a good choice from the tactical side.
Space Marines seem like a versatile choice.

Out of the Space Marines, I seem to be split between three chapters:
Iron Hands: These seem to have the best fluff tie-in with Imperial Knights, in the same way as AdMech
Raven Guard: The stealth/hit&run tactics seem like they would be good in a similar way to the Assassins
Grey Knights: Provides a nice knight-theme for the whole list.

Since I'm not particularly conversant with any of the rules post 3rd edition, I'm a bit lost on the playability of each of these pairings... Which would you choose? Or is there a better pairing?

Well, I'd go with Astra Mililitaria/IG they are fluffy as Yeoman support that secures the area for the Knightly lords. Some Knight families are strongly allied with a Forge world, so that would be a good set up as well. But IG/AM will help you win more games.

"good looking, Knights you've got there" would probably do.

Count me as #3 recommendation for AdMech. Its fluffy, plus you get you can get stratagems/canticles. You can't really beat the combination of good fluff and good rules.

I’m planning to field a Superheavy IK detachment with an allied vanguard or detachment. That being the case, I’ve got to like the elites and fast attack options. I’m going to take another look at the elite and fast attack units offered by the factions I like and see if that gels things for me a little more.

After a bunch more reading into different chapters’ culture. I’m beginning to think that the salamanders have the most compatible disposition to that of the Imperial Knights.

I will probably start with IK/Assassins because that’s going to be the quickest way to get a playable force. Following that, I’m now down to salamanders (which weren’t on my original list) or Grey Knights.