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If plasma weapons shoot overcharge (badrukk in this case) does he take damage on a roll of 2? How about a roll of 1?

He would be slain on the roll of a 1. [As that's a 1.] Or a 2. [As a 2 minus 1, is 1.]

If it was dark, it'd be on a 3!

If he shot a Lictor, in the dark, beside a Malenthrope, he'd die on a 4 or less.

Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

 Ordana wrote:
Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

Just asking, but wouldn't it be the same thing? His 2 roll is -1 so it's a 1. Wouldn't that allow the re-roll? I haven't played much at all this edition and i'm trying to learn the ins and outs.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

Just asking, but wouldn't it be the same thing? His 2 roll is -1 so it's a 1. Wouldn't that allow the re-roll? I haven't played much at all this edition and i'm trying to learn the ins and outs.

Re-rolls ignore modifiers completely. If you are in a “must re-roll misses” aura and your BS is 4+, when you roll a 4, you don’t get to re-roll because that’s a ‘hit’ per your BS, even if you are being affected by a negative to-hit modifier. Equally if you were in the same situation except the to-hit modifier was positive and you rolled a 3, you’d still have to re-roll your ‘miss.’

Unfortunately this is unique to re-rolls as all other effects work off the final, modified, result (unless they specify otherwise of course) and that includes plasma burn. Also, important is that results can’t be modified below 1 — you can totally get a 7+ or better but less than 1 doesn’t exist — so negative mods make overcharged plasma extremely unreliable.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

Just asking, but wouldn't it be the same thing? His 2 roll is -1 so it's a 1. Wouldn't that allow the re-roll? I haven't played much at all this edition and i'm trying to learn the ins and outs.

Re-rolls ignore modifiers completely. If you are in a “must re-roll misses” aura and your BS is 4+, when you roll a 4, you don’t get to re-roll because that’s a ‘hit’ per your BS, even if you are being affected by a negative to-hit modifier. Equally if you were in the same situation except the to-hit modifier was positive and you rolled a 3, you’d still have to re-roll your ‘miss.’

Unfortunately this is unique to re-rolls as all other effects work off the final, modified, result (unless they specify otherwise of course) and that includes plasma burn. Also, important is that results can’t be modified below 1 — you can totally get a 7+ or better but less than 1 doesn’t exist — so negative mods make overcharged plasma extremely unreliable.

Yup.

It's VERY dumb.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

Just asking, but wouldn't it be the same thing? His 2 roll is -1 so it's a 1. Wouldn't that allow the re-roll? I haven't played much at all this edition and i'm trying to learn the ins and outs.

Re-rolls ignore modifiers completely. If you are in a “must re-roll misses” aura and your BS is 4+, when you roll a 4, you don’t get to re-roll because that’s a ‘hit’ per your BS, even if you are being affected by a negative to-hit modifier. Equally if you were in the same situation except the to-hit modifier was positive and you rolled a 3, you’d still have to re-roll your ‘miss.’

Unfortunately this is unique to re-rolls as all other effects work off the final, modified, result (unless they specify otherwise of course) and that includes plasma burn. Also, important is that results can’t be modified below 1 — you can totally get a 7+ or better but less than 1 doesn’t exist — so negative mods make overcharged plasma extremely unreliable.

Yup.

It's VERY dumb.

I do not think it is dumb. It is very clear. Everything after that is subjective. As someone who has played GW and mtg on and of for many years, and is a mtgjudge, it is very hard to come up with rules that will never come up with new weard corner cases.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
He would be slain on the roll of a 1. [As that's a 1.] Or a 2. [As a 2 minus 1, is 1.]

If it was dark, it'd be on a 3!

If he shot a Lictor, in the dark, beside a Malenthrope, he'd die on a 4 or less.

...and if it shot the Deathleaper in the dark beside a malanthrope, he would die on a 5 or less. On second thoughts kids, don't overcharge your plasmas when shooting deathleapers in the dark beside malanthropes.

 Niiai wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Also remember that re-rolls are before modifiers so you cannot re-roll the 2 if your inside a 're-roll 1's' aura.

Just asking, but wouldn't it be the same thing? His 2 roll is -1 so it's a 1. Wouldn't that allow the re-roll? I haven't played much at all this edition and i'm trying to learn the ins and outs.

Re-rolls ignore modifiers completely. If you are in a “must re-roll misses” aura and your BS is 4+, when you roll a 4, you don’t get to re-roll because that’s a ‘hit’ per your BS, even if you are being affected by a negative to-hit modifier. Equally if you were in the same situation except the to-hit modifier was positive and you rolled a 3, you’d still have to re-roll your ‘miss.’

Unfortunately this is unique to re-rolls as all other effects work off the final, modified, result (unless they specify otherwise of course) and that includes plasma burn. Also, important is that results can’t be modified below 1 — you can totally get a 7+ or better but less than 1 doesn’t exist — so negative mods make overcharged plasma extremely unreliable.

Yup.

It's VERY dumb.

I do not think it is dumb. It is very clear. Everything after that is subjective. As someone who has played GW and mtg on and of for many years, and is a mtgjudge, it is very hard to come up with rules that will never come up with new weard corner cases.

It's super dumb how they set up their rerolls and modifiers. Heres how it should work.

Effects that trigger on specific die rolls only ever trigger on natural rolls of that number (-1 to hits wouldn't stop tesla from procing but it would reduce all generated hits to 5s (not that that generally matters, plasma only kills you on an actual 1). No modifiers can stop them. That also means rerolls that trigger on flat values also only trigger on natural rolls (reroll 1s means it always rerolls on a natural 1).

Effects that trigger on broad categories always trigger after modifiers. (reroll misses happens after all modifiers apply and you determine whether you actually hit or not),

In summary, without the examples, that modifiers/rerolls rule would be...

Effects that trigger on specific values only ever trigger on natural rolls of the value needed, including rerolling rolls of 1. Effects that trigger on broad criteria always trigger after modifiers, such as rerolling all misses..

35 words. Easily fit in a sidebar. Easy to understand. Doesn't create odd ball edge cases. Makes sense in every place in the game from a design and balance perspective and a fluff logic perspective.

We are leaving YMDC and over into fan fiction and sugested rules. I am very sure some corner case would trigger a requierment of better wording and FAQ. It always happens, no matter how many times you dot the i's and put on ribbon and bows.

This also works in your favor. If you have +1 to your rolls, you can overcharge and never explode, because the 1s become 2s. While they still miss because a 1 is always a fail regardless of modifiers, the result becomes a 2 and therefore you don't "get hot."

This is another reason why minus and plus to hit are powerful in 8th edition. But, I don't see a problem here. Overcharging plasma should be risky and should come with potential serious drawbacks. Because plasma is dirt cheap, has great range, and solid damage when overcharged.

This is one of the stupidest rules they have. I feel like someone in that Designer's Commentary just answered something offhand without thinking all that much about it and turned something that could have worked fairly well into a weird mess.

There's nothing in the actual rules that say a roll can't be modified lower than 1. It should work perfectly well that (for example) a -3 to hit means that your plasma gun will overheat on a 4 (modified down to a 1), but not on a 3 or less (since that would be modified to 0 or less, not 1).

That way you'd always have the same 1/6 chance of an overheat per shot, regardless of how hard to see the target is, while applying the stacking hit modifiers as normal. Trying to hit a Lictor or an Alpha Legion marine doesn't magically make the gun hotter than trying to hit a Warrior or an Iron Hands marine.

It would also be completely consistent with going the other way--you can modify rolls above 6, and in fact some abilities require that to succeed. What possible reason would there be to arbitrarily say you can't lower them below 1? Even if they were worried about screwing things up by possibly having negative numbers (like if they ever introduced an ability that gave a subtractive modifier to damage, it would be annoying to deal with what happens if a model takes negative damage), they could have said it can't be modified below 0 instead of 1. That avoids any future issues with negative outcomes while avoiding the issue that they actually have things trigger off a 1.

Seriously, at the point where they were answering this very question about plasma and modifiers, and got to the point where hit modifiers make it more likely for a plasma gun to blow up, they should have stopped for a second and gone "You know what, that's kind of weird. Why don't we take another swing at that?"

(And I say that not out of some misguided idea of how competently they develop rules, but based on how often they let flavor and narrative impact guide rule-making. It doesn't make sense in-universe for a smoke screen or darkness to make plasma guns blow up, so that seems like it would be enough reason for them.)


Edit: That being said, as Marmatag points out, plasma weaponry is everywhere despite these rules, and I've seen more than a few people around here lamenting the fact that plasma is just better than most other weapon options for a lot of units. From a competitive point of view, a bit of a nerf to plasma is probably a good thing. But it's just a stupid decision from a clear-and-sensible rules perspective, and one that absolutely didn't have to be made so convoluted. "Can rolls be modified above 6? Yes. Can rolls be modified below 1? Yes." Open and shut.

 Niiai wrote:
We are leaving YMDC and over into fan fiction and sugested rules. I am very sure some corner case would trigger a requierment of better wording and FAQ. It always happens, no matter how many times you dot the i's and put on ribbon and bows.

That seems like an odd response to somebody who took your comment " it is very hard to come up with rules that will never come up with new weard corner cases" and disproved it with an example of how it could be easily worded. GW made a hash of things and doesn't feel like fixing it, basically.

It is a good sugestion of the rule. I just know from experience that some corner case always comes along promting someone to make an FAQ no matter how it would be worded. Especially when someone makes subjective calls about rules 'like this is dumb.' Plasmas getting hot on a 2 just is, that is it. I do not want to read the writers intension into the rules. Perhaps this was part of the rules all along when they point balanced the game. Another rule would essentially be a boost to plasma weapons, who are already very good. Did they factor that in when they made points? I don't care. We are debating fan fiction, witch this is. Why is beyond me, but you please continue.

Thanks for the awnser to my question further up