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Probably my favourite part in a novel was the way Kharn doesn't take any gak, and will go up against unstoppable forces, just for being insulted. And of course holding Lozepath the saints skull in the air with Guard and Sisters crying out loud. The end was bs though, Kharn is a far better duelist than Abaddon. Abaddon shouldn't have been able to do that well against Kharn, utter fantasy.

Actually duelling isn't kharn's forte. He's a butcher not a from the EC or worse the imperium.

 Earth127 wrote:
Actually duelling isn't kharn's forte. He's a butcher not a from the EC or worse the imperium.

Not true, in Betrayer it said that Kharn and Argel Tal never cared enough to do well in the pits saying "I fight when it means death' but after Argel Tal died and Angron became a Daemon he started fighting in the pits constantly. When he became the Betrayer he constantly fought in the pits, he'd take on squads at a time even when it was to the death. He's an extremely good duelist and even approves of bezerkers challenging his leadership, and far better than any other Astartes as he constantly fights in the pit, where pretty much all other legions spar instead of fighting in the pits. Even when he didn't take pit fights seriously he beat Erebus who was an extremely good duelist, he just doesn't fight like your average duelist. He can fight and kill 40 astartes, he fights like Angron, he leaves his own bezerkers in most battles to find the best trophies for himself. He's insanely good. Listen to the Chosen of Khorne and the eightfold path (you can youtube these) and read the red path. He's never been bested as the betrayer, even Lucius has been beaten many times.

Yes but just because you are better than other means you win 100% times right? Oh wait except at least in our world that's not true. Guess 40k works on so different world that even slight advantage means you win 100% time!

tneva82 wrote:
Yes but just because you are better than other means you win 100% times right? Oh wait except at least in our world that's not true. Guess 40k works on so different world that even slight advantage means you win 100% time!

My impression is he's died multiple times and Khorne keeps kicking him back. Supposedly, he died during the Siege of Terra on the walls for the Imperial Palace.

Of course Kharn gets beaten by Abaddon. Abaddon is the Warmaster of Chaos who enjoys the backing of all Chaos Gods. With such power, there is no way any mere mortal is going to be able to beat him in a straight fight, not even Kharn.
Just like Sanguinius was a much better duelist than Horus, but still lost big time because Horus had been pumped up by the power of the Chaos gods.
Also, Abaddon is a very good duelist, he even beat a clone of Horus in a duel. I would say Kharn and Abaddon are very much on an equal level in fighting skill.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Of course Kharn gets beaten by Abaddon. Abaddon is the Warmaster of Chaos who enjoys the backing of all Chaos Gods. With such power, there is no way any mere mortal is going to be able to beat him in a straight fight, not even Kharn.
Just like Sanguinius was a much better duelist than Horus, but still lost big time because Horus had been pumped up by the power of the Chaos gods.
Also, Abaddon is a very good duelist, he even beat a clone of Horus in a duel. I would say Kharn and Abaddon are very much on an equal level in fighting skill.

He never got beat by Abaddon. Sanguinius wasn't better than Horus, he's one of the top three, between himself, Angron and Horus. The clone took a beating from a whole squad before Abaddon killed it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes but just because you are better than other means you win 100% times right? Oh wait except at least in our world that's not true. Guess 40k works on so different world that even slight advantage means you win 100% time!

I never suggested that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes but just because you are better than other means you win 100% times right? Oh wait except at least in our world that's not true. Guess 40k works on so different world that even slight advantage means you win 100% time!

My impression is he's died multiple times and Khorne keeps kicking him back. Supposedly, he died during the Siege of Terra on the walls for the Imperial Palace.

He died once but not in a duel like Lucius. His body was found surrounded by Imperial guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon beats all the people he has dueled as have most Champions of their warbands. If he could beat Kharn, Abaddon would be the chosen of Khorne.

Abaddon is chosen of all 4 Gods because he isn't the chosen of any one.

Abaddon is incredibly powerful in that he can resist the temptations of each god and keep his own autonomy. Kharn is a slaughterer, bound to murder and death and blood. Typhus is bound to the whims of corruption and decay. Lucius is forever stuck in a cycle of excess, perfection and sensation. Ahriman is always searching for knowledge and change.

Abaddon isn't held to any of the above - he is STILL the master of his fate, unlike Horus was. As he says, "Horus was weak". Even as a baseline, Abaddon was an incredibly powerful Space Marine. First Captain of a Legion which favoured close combat, a proponent of aggressive combat. He would certainly have been a match for Kharn when neither was blessed, but post-Heresy, with Kharn being given Khorne's blessing, and Abaddon with:
The blessings of each Chaos God
The Talon of Horus
One of the most powerful Daemons in existence bound in his sword
It's not hard to see Abaddon winning out.

If Abaddon beating Kharn would make him the chosen of Khorne, then how would it work with Lucius? If Abaddon killed Lucius, what happens? He loses all his own previous blessings? What about Kharn? Surely then Kharn would be the chosen of both Khorne AND Slaanesh.

Simply beating a chosen doesn't make you that chosen. Given that Abaddon still hasn't devoted himself fully to any God, no God will give him that "honour", even if he does beat their champion.



It's also an issue of 40k in general - leader characters are often better duellists than the champions they outrank who are THERE to duel enemies so that their leaders don't have to. It's triply funny for the Ultramarines. In a duel situation, we can have:
The Second Company Champion, who's supposed to take on duels that the Captain doesn't need to.
However, Captain Sicarius happens to be the Knight Champion of Macragge, so outranks in duelling not only his OWN company's champion, but also the CHAPTER Champion of the Honour Guard, despite him being a Captain, and so should be deferring such personal matters to as to command the battle.
However, Marneus Calgar, being an older, better armed, armoured and accomplished (as we see by literally everything he does) is a better duellist than the KNIGHT CHAMPION of Macragge. Therefore, we have a Chapter Master who is the best duellist of the Chapter, making every Champion role under him absolutely irrelevant because of his own skill.

40k is full of "champions" being outclassed by people who are simply the "Land Raider costed dude" of their faction because of the nature of 40k and "tactical" leaders having superlative melee combat skills.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon is chosen of all 4 Gods because he isn't the chosen of any one.

Abaddon is incredibly powerful in that he can resist the temptations of each god and keep his own autonomy. Kharn is a slaughterer, bound to murder and death and blood. Typhus is bound to the whims of corruption and decay. Lucius is forever stuck in a cycle of excess, perfection and sensation. Ahriman is always searching for knowledge and change.

Abaddon isn't held to any of the above - he is STILL the master of his fate, unlike Horus was. As he says, "Horus was weak". Even as a baseline, Abaddon was an incredibly powerful Space Marine. First Captain of a Legion which favoured close combat, a proponent of aggressive combat. He would certainly have been a match for Kharn when neither was blessed, but post-Heresy, with Kharn being given Khorne's blessing, and Abaddon with:
The blessings of each Chaos God
The Talon of Horus
One of the most powerful Daemons in existence bound in his sword
It's not hard to see Abaddon winning out.

If Abaddon beating Kharn would make him the chosen of Khorne, then how would it work with Lucius? If Abaddon killed Lucius, what happens? He loses all his own previous blessings? What about Kharn? Surely then Kharn would be the chosen of both Khorne AND Slaanesh.

Simply beating a chosen doesn't make you that chosen. Given that Abaddon still hasn't devoted himself fully to any God, no God will give him that "honour", even if he does beat their champion.



It's also an issue of 40k in general - leader characters are often better duellists than the champions they outrank who are THERE to duel enemies so that their leaders don't have to. It's triply funny for the Ultramarines. In a duel situation, we can have:
The Second Company Champion, who's supposed to take on duels that the Captain doesn't need to.
However, Captain Sicarius happens to be the Knight Champion of Macragge, so outranks in duelling not only his OWN company's champion, but also the CHAPTER Champion of the Honour Guard, despite him being a Captain, and so should be deferring such personal matters to as to command the battle.
However, Marneus Calgar, being an older, better armed, armoured and accomplished (as we see by literally everything he does) is a better duellist than the KNIGHT CHAMPION of Macragge. Therefore, we have a Chapter Master who is the best duellist of the Chapter, making every Champion role under him absolutely irrelevant because of his own skill.

40k is full of "champions" being outclassed by people who are simply the "Land Raider costed dude" of their faction because of the nature of 40k and "tactical" leaders having superlative melee combat skills.

Abaddon isn't the chosen of Khorne, he is merely blessed by Khorne and holds the gods favour and only because of his leadership and ability to raise massive armies for the great crusade, remember the gods hate Abaddon. Its very hard to see Abaddon winning out. Kharn duels to the death every day in the pits, he takes of multiple Contenders in the pits. He fights like Angron, he rarely fights in squads etc. He goes off on his own to get the best trophies, and he's known to fight armies of Astartes by himself laying waste to 40 by himself including chapter masters on the same battle. Abaddon is no where near that kind of level. He's a strategist and leads an army, from the lore its absolutely laughable to think Abaddon is on his level.

Delvarus let me say that I believe you are a little biased, at least based in your avatar.

 Galas wrote:
Delvarus let me say that I believe you are a little biased, at least based in your avatar.

You can be biased and still be right lol

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Abaddon isn't the chosen of Khorne, he is merely blessed by Khorne and holds the gods favour and only because of his leadership and ability to raise massive armies for the great crusade, remember the gods hate Abaddon. Its very hard to see Abaddon winning out. Kharn duels to the death every day in the pits, he takes of multiple Contenders in the pits. He fights like Angron, he rarely fights in squads etc. He goes off on his own to get the best trophies, and he's known to fight armies of Astartes by himself laying waste to 40 by himself including chapter masters on the same battle. Abaddon is no where near that kind of level. He's a strategist and leads an army, from the lore its absolutely laughable to think Abaddon is on his level.

I never called him The Chosen of Khorne. I just said that he had been chosen - not completely the same.

"Merely" blessed by Khorne is still an incredibly impressive feat. That kind of blessing is given to very few, and that's the only boon they get at all. Abaddon gets that kind of boon from each one of the Chaos Gods.

The Gods hate Abaddon in his current form. They hate the fact that he hasn't sworn himself like Horus did - they dislike how he's using their power and not giving them his soul. However, they all REALLY want him as their own champion.

Think of it as a cat with four owners. Each owner wants the cat to follow them and be theirs and love them, so they feed it treats. The cat is being given treats from each one, and doesn't pick an owner. Instead of stopping and giving up, each owner tries harder, giving more treats and cooing and showing more and more and more attention. This is exactly what's going on with Abaddon. He's teasing more power and more boons from each God whilst not following any one.

Seriously, Abaddon is HOPPED UP on Chaos power. He's able to go toe to toe with Horus, his martial reputation is practically untarnished - and unlike Kharn, hasn't died. That should say something about his abilities. Kharn has died at least once, and nearly killed by Loken - who Abaddon then bested.

I really think you either haven't read much on Abaddon's martial prowess, are ignoring it, or are incredibly biased to Kharn.
You "can" be biased and right, but popular consensus seems to disagree that you are.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Abaddon isn't the chosen of Khorne, he is merely blessed by Khorne and holds the gods favour and only because of his leadership and ability to raise massive armies for the great crusade, remember the gods hate Abaddon. Its very hard to see Abaddon winning out. Kharn duels to the death every day in the pits, he takes of multiple Contenders in the pits. He fights like Angron, he rarely fights in squads etc. He goes off on his own to get the best trophies, and he's known to fight armies of Astartes by himself laying waste to 40 by himself including chapter masters on the same battle. Abaddon is no where near that kind of level. He's a strategist and leads an army, from the lore its absolutely laughable to think Abaddon is on his level.

I never called him The Chosen of Khorne. I just said that he had been chosen - not completely the same.

"Merely" blessed by Khorne is still an incredibly impressive feat. That kind of blessing is given to very few, and that's the only boon they get at all. Abaddon gets that kind of boon from each one of the Chaos Gods.

The Gods hate Abaddon in his current form. They hate the fact that he hasn't sworn himself like Horus did - they dislike how he's using their power and not giving them his soul. However, they all REALLY want him as their own champion.

Think of it as a cat with four owners. Each owner wants the cat to follow them and be theirs and love them, so they feed it treats. The cat is being given treats from each one, and doesn't pick an owner. Instead of stopping and giving up, each owner tries harder, giving more treats and cooing and showing more and more and more attention. This is exactly what's going on with Abaddon. He's teasing more power and more boons from each God whilst not following any one.

Seriously, Abaddon is HOPPED UP on Chaos power. He's able to go toe to toe with Horus, his martial reputation is practically untarnished - and unlike Kharn, hasn't died. That should say something about his abilities. Kharn has died at least once, and nearly killed by Loken - who Abaddon then bested.

I really think you either haven't read much on Abaddon's martial prowess, are ignoring it, or are incredibly biased to Kharn.
You "can" be biased and right, but popular consensus seems to disagree that you are.

He never beat Horus, he beat a Horus clone. Kharn may have died but he died in a way Abaddon never will, on his own surrounded by the enemy. Abaddon is an extremely good duelist but thats not his bread and butter, Abaddon killed Sigismund so I'm not underestimating him, but Kharn is a totally different beast. His martial prowess has never been repeated in the lore and Abaddon hasn't repeated anything close to it. Other than saying he kill this warlord or that loyalist. He spends the majority of his time leading forces and only duels when it comes to competing warlords or to take warbands and at times will use his champions to duel. People who think Abaddon would be better are influenced by the rules in the game he's had for so long, mostly due to his daemon sword though. It may be the popular opinion but you haven't proven it is from representative sample, but regardless everyone thinks he's the best duelist merely from the rules. He beat Sigismund and he defeats any warlord he's challenged, compare that to what Kharn has done after the Heresy and its not very much, if you are looking at purely the lore.

Umm Abbaddon killed Sigismund. that's a pretty major achomplishment, can Kharn claim a dueling kill on that level?

BrianDavion wrote:
Umm Abbaddon killed Sigismund. that's a pretty major accomplishment, can Kharn claim a dueling kill on that level?

He killed him but Sigismund brought him close to death. Can any warlord or chapter master duel against squads of prospective champions at the same time. Have they had Kharns experience of constant dueling in the pits as sanguist externus and fighting against Astartes armies on his own most of the time? Kharn bested Erebus who was considered a duelist amongst Sigismund, Lucius etc.

I have NEVER heard of Erebus spoken of as being in the same LEAGUE as Sigismund. the guy was ROUTINLY ranked as being one of the top heresy era Duelists.

BrianDavion wrote:
I have NEVER heard of Erebus spoken of as being in the same LEAGUE as Sigismund. the guy was ROUTINLY ranked as being one of the top heresy era Duelists.

Yeah its in either betrayer or eightfold path or the butchers nails can't remember which, Before I read it I never thought he was even a bad duelist. he even ran away after he was beat so he didn't die. I'm trying to find the quote just now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Delvarus let me say that I believe you are a little biased, at least based in your avatar.

You can be biased and still be right lol

But you are wrong. Not only does Abby have the skill to beat him but also has the blessing of four gods AND the Talon of Horus AND his demon sword. Just by gear alone he would trounce Kharne. Hes the big boy of chaos for a reason. To bad he cant keep his arms attached.

TLDR. Just because you like Kharne more does not mean he would win. And by the looks of the lore, GW agrees with me. And also, im not a fan of Abby.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:He never beat Horus, he beat a Horus clone.

With Horus' memories and knowledge, although probably not his Chaos enhacements. That's still a very formidable Primarch, in full armour, wielding Worldbreaker, with all of his hatred and skill. And Abaddon killed him.

I don't see why him being a clone is any less powerful.

Kharn may have died but he died in a way Abaddon never will, on his own surrounded by the enemy.

And how is that supposed to change the fact that Kharn clearly failed? Abaddon hasn't - never died, never been resurrected. Hell, we can look at a list of opponents Kharn and Abaddon have fought, and compare how they did:

Loken - Kharn got impaled on a Land Raider fighting him. Abaddon left him buried alive on Istvaan.
Sigismund - Kharn lost in a practice bout. Abaddon killed him in single combat.
Any more they've both fought against, who Kharn came out better? I can't.

Abaddon is an extremely good duelist but thats not his bread and butter, Abaddon killed Sigismund so I'm not underestimating him, but Kharn is a totally different beast. His martial prowess has never been repeated in the lore and Abaddon hasn't repeated anything close to it.

Other than killing Sigismund, Horus, and the rivalling Champions who sought to dominate the Black Legion? Or Khorne's daemonic champions on Goreswirl, where he gained Khorne's blessing?

Yeah, nah. Abaddon is a VERY good duellist. The difference between him and Kharn is that Kharn is ONLY a fighter. Abaddon's a very good fighter, and a leader too.

Other than saying he kill this warlord or that loyalist. He spends the majority of his time leading forces and only duels when it comes to competing warlords or to take warbands and at times will use his champions to duel.

Kharn spends most of his time wading through chaff like guardsmen. He fights champions just as much as Abaddon does. Abaddon duels the toughest of opponents - the ones that matter. Kharn just has no standards in that he'll duel anyone. That doesn't make him better.

People who think Abaddon would be better are influenced by the rules in the game he's had for so long, mostly due to his daemon sword though.

That daemon sword also exists in fluff too, and IS one of the most powerful daemon weapons. No questions asked on that.

Abaddon has those rules for a reason. It's because he's an incredibly good fighter - the stats might not be perfectly accurate, but we can gauge that his ability are very good, at Kharn levels.

It may be the popular opinion but you haven't proven it is from representative sample, but regardless everyone thinks he's the best duelist merely from the rules.

Despite most of the arguments in this thead being from the lore.
No, the popular opinion is derived from the lore, and very much supports Abaddon here.

He beat Sigismund and he defeats any warlord he's challenged, compare that to what Kharn has done after the Heresy and its not very much, if you are looking at purely the lore.

And who of note has Kharn killed? Or Lucius? Sigismund and HORUS are some of the strongest, toughest fighters in the galaxy - what have Kharn and Lucius killed that's anywhere near that in the lore?

Seriously, you're hyping Kharn up way way too much - he's very good, very good indeed, but he isn't the Warmaster of the forces of Chaos (a position earned by strength and slaying other champions), and hasn't had a Primarch-tier kill to his name at all.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Umm Abbaddon killed Sigismund. that's a pretty major accomplishment, can Kharn claim a dueling kill on that level?

He killed him but Sigismund brought him close to death.

Still killed him. Do we have evidence of Kharn killing a Sigismund tier opponent? I will also mention than Kharn DID lose to Sigismund in a sparring match once. Kharn was correct in his statement that "it's not real, only a sparring match", but by the same metric, Sigismund could still have bested him when they both meant to kill the other - and Abaddon DID kill Sigismund in the real setting. So he's clearly a capable duellist too.

Can any warlord or chapter master duel against squads of prospective champions at the same time. Have they had Kharns experience of constant dueling in the pits as sanguist externus and fighting against Astartes armies on his own most of the time?

The Primarchs would be a good contender - and Abaddon killed one in single combat. Prospective champions is a vague term, because we don't know how good these champions were. From what I could gather, by the time Kharn was entering the pits properly, most of the combatants had lost their minds to the nails and were little more than berserkers. Lucius would have been easily capable of this, as I have no doubt Abaddon would (Abaddon who killed Horus, I might repeat, and Horus would, if Guilliman's performance is anything to go by, be able to take on a handpicked selected Kill Squad of Alpha Legion assassins unarmed and armoured. Aka, easily capable of fighting some berserker champions when fully armed and armoured in the pits).

Abaddon has had experience in fighting some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy. He's killed Horus. He killed Sigismund. He wields one of the most powerful daemon sword in existence. Why ISN'T he as good, if not better, than Kharn?

Kharn bested Erebus who was considered a duelist amongst Sigismund, Lucius etc.

Going to need a source on that. Erebus wasn't THAT good a duellist. From what I remember, he duelled Loken, and they came very close to one another. Loken wasn't a Lucius-tier opponent (he only beat him via a cheap headbutt in a sparring match - when Lucius was aware of this style of fighting, he wiped the floor with him). Furthermore, Abaddon then went on to beat Loken handily, before he was ever corrupted by Chaos. If Abaddon could beat Loken, odds are he could beat Erebus - who, if you say is a Kharn tier duellist, then Abaddon must be too.

Also mentioned is the fact that "Extremely proud and quick to anger, Abaddon's martial record was unsurpassed by that of any other Luna Wolf." That's a hell of a record.

Kharn's good. But Abaddon is just better.

I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

Engrenages wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

I think I'd agree. I do think that if I put Kharn and Abaddon in a room and got them duelling pre-Heresy, I'd expect Kharn to come out, albeit close.

Post Heresy, hopped up on all that Chaos power, Abaddon, no contest.

Can't say I've heard of the Lamiad incident - which book is it?

Engrenages wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

that just implies said Tetriarch was damn good. All things being equal law of averages suggests the Ultramarines are going to have some of the best of anything in their chapter.

Engrenages wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

In the novel Vengeful Spirit.

Engrenages wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

In the novel Vengeful Spirit.

Ah, thank you!

BrianDavion wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
I have no dog in this race, and I say Kharn is outmatched. I would say before the Heresy Abaddon had the advantage, and now Kharn has the blessing of one Chaos god while Abaddon has the blessing of four Chaos gods. If anything the gap has widened.

I agree with the general consensus about Abaddon being stronger than Kharn post-heresy, but I disagree with you and think that pre-heresy Kharn was above Abaddon. Also, one bit of interesting fluff : in Vengeful Spirit, Lamiad (one of the Tetrarch of Ultramar) was said to have moped the fllor with Abby after the latter had insulted the Ultramarines right after Ullanor.

that just implies said Tetriarch was damn good. All things being equal law of averages suggests the Ultramarines are going to have some of the best of anything in their chapter.

Agreed. Kharn was also fought to a standstill by Nassir Amit and some rando UM Captain whose name escapes me. While I think Amit is a cool character, he really has no other martial achievements to speak of.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
With Horus' memories and knowledge, although probably not his Chaos enhacements. That's still a very formidable Primarch, in full armour, wielding Worldbreaker, with all of his hatred and skill. And Abaddon killed him.

Two points on this. The first is more of a question. Didn't Horus only really remember who he and Abbadon were after Abbadon struck him down? I suspect that clone spent most of the battle with Abby very distracted trying to remember who the hell it and the opponent were, as well as having little direct combat memory experience to draw upon.
Also, doesn't the good Doctor's early attempts to clone Ferrus Manus show that a clone doesn't have to be the physical equal or even be physically identical to the original?

Don't get me wrong, striking down even a very confused pseudo-Primarch bereft of any real memory is worth something (Primarchs are notoriously hard to kill). But as far as I can ascertain, it wasn't anywhere close to being Horus in his full majesty and power.

 Ketara wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
With Horus' memories and knowledge, although probably not his Chaos enhacements. That's still a very formidable Primarch, in full armour, wielding Worldbreaker, with all of his hatred and skill. And Abaddon killed him.

Two points on this. The first is more of a question. Didn't Horus only really remember who he and Abbadon were after Abbadon struck him down? I suspect that clone spent most of the battle with Abby very distracted trying to remember who the hell it and the opponent were, as well as having little direct combat memory experience to draw upon.

He's able to remember the Talon of Horus, before he names Abaddon his son.

Abaddon tells him to stop, Horus faces him and says something along the lines of "That's my Talon" before getting beat.

Also, doesn't the good Doctor's early attempts to clone Ferrus Manus show that a clone doesn't have to be the physical equal or even be physically identical to the original?

This is true, but considering that we're not shown any deformities from the actual Horus (pre-Davin), I would have assumed he was exactly as he was pre-Davin.

Don't get me wrong, striking down even a very confused pseudo-Primarch bereft of any real memory is worth something (Primarchs are notoriously hard to kill). But as far as I can ascertain, it wasn't anywhere close to being Horus in his full majesty and power.

Maybe that's correct, we don't really spend that much time working out the ins and out of this clone Horus. All I can infer is that he does have military skill and drive (as we seen by him fighting), remembers at least who he is and what he was (identifying his Talon and calling it such), and at least looks and seems just as physically powerful as before.

Considering that the Emperor is quoted as having blasted Horus' soul completely from existence, destroying all traces utterly, I think it is safe to say that whatever Bile created as Horus, whatever memories it might have had, it wasn't Horus himself in full form or power. Since Horus' soul was utterly obliterated, it simply can't have been present in the clone's body. Unlike Ferrus or Sanguinius, it was quite literally wiped from existence, as opposed to being cast into the Warp.

We see in modern science today how cells can retain a certain limited amount of memory; it's why people who have certain organs swapped suddenly find they develop cravings and tastes they never had before. I suspect that Clone Horus was something similar; just a fullbodied replica cultivated from whatever handful of cells Bile got his hands on. It had a handful of hazy memories transferred from the original Horus; but nothing of the original soul strength or warp presence that the Primarchs possessed. I imagine it had the same (or close to) the physical reflexes of one though; which would have allowed it to tear through regular marines with reasonable ease.

Again, I'm not saying this to take away from Abbadon's feat, he defeated a Primarch simulacra and that's doubtless quite hard to do. Few likely could have done. But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have had the experience or overall power that Horus did, and likely spent the battle highly confused and disorientated for the most part. A headful of hazy half-visions and almost recollections battling against the needs of the moment and its own vat memories for headspace.

I actually feel kind of sorry for it.

No, if Bile could create real Chaos Primarchs at will, Terra would have been long since lost.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Abaddon is chosen of all 4 Gods because he isn't the chosen of any one.

Abaddon is incredibly powerful in that he can resist the temptations of each god and keep his own autonomy. Kharn is a slaughterer, bound to murder and death and blood. Typhus is bound to the whims of corruption and decay. Lucius is forever stuck in a cycle of excess, perfection and sensation. Ahriman is always searching for knowledge and change.

Abaddon isn't held to any of the above - he is STILL the master of his fate, unlike Horus was. As he says, "Horus was weak". Even as a baseline, Abaddon was an incredibly powerful Space Marine. First Captain of a Legion which favoured close combat, a proponent of aggressive combat. He would certainly have been a match for Kharn when neither was blessed, but post-Heresy, with Kharn being given Khorne's blessing, and Abaddon with:
The blessings of each Chaos God
The Talon of Horus
One of the most powerful Daemons in existence bound in his sword
It's not hard to see Abaddon winning out.

If Abaddon beating Kharn would make him the chosen of Khorne, then how would it work with Lucius? If Abaddon killed Lucius, what happens? He loses all his own previous blessings? What about Kharn? Surely then Kharn would be the chosen of both Khorne AND Slaanesh.

Simply beating a chosen doesn't make you that chosen. Given that Abaddon still hasn't devoted himself fully to any God, no God will give him that "honour", even if he does beat their champion.



It's also an issue of 40k in general - leader characters are often better duellists than the champions they outrank who are THERE to duel enemies so that their leaders don't have to. It's triply funny for the Ultramarines. In a duel situation, we can have:
The Second Company Champion, who's supposed to take on duels that the Captain doesn't need to.
However, Captain Sicarius happens to be the Knight Champion of Macragge, so outranks in duelling not only his OWN company's champion, but also the CHAPTER Champion of the Honour Guard, despite him being a Captain, and so should be deferring such personal matters to as to command the battle.
However, Marneus Calgar, being an older, better armed, armoured and accomplished (as we see by literally everything he does) is a better duellist than the KNIGHT CHAMPION of Macragge. Therefore, we have a Chapter Master who is the best duellist of the Chapter, making every Champion role under him absolutely irrelevant because of his own skill.

40k is full of "champions" being outclassed by people who are simply the "Land Raider costed dude" of their faction because of the nature of 40k and "tactical" leaders having superlative melee combat skills.

Abaddon isn't the chosen of Khorne, he is merely blessed by Khorne and holds the gods favour and only because of his leadership and ability to raise massive armies for the great crusade, remember the gods hate Abaddon. Its very hard to see Abaddon winning out. Kharn duels to the death every day in the pits, he takes of multiple Contenders in the pits. He fights like Angron, he rarely fights in squads etc. He goes off on his own to get the best trophies, and he's known to fight armies of Astartes by himself laying waste to 40 by himself including chapter masters on the same battle. Abaddon is no where near that kind of level. He's a strategist and leads an army, from the lore its absolutely laughable to think Abaddon is on his level.

Jesus christ, read some fluff please.

Abaddo has been offered daemon princehood by literally all four of the gods, and he's rejected them all. They've ALL chosen him and they fight amongst themselves for his favor, but he deliberately goes out of his way to not fall completely to one god, because he wants his independence.