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I am concerned. As a lifelong eldar player, since 1995, I don't remember the exact edition, my love for Eldar runs deep, long before they were top tier good. It pains me to see how overly good they've become since 6th edition, leading to almost all non-eldar players hating them and feeling that they are allowed to legally cheat, essentially. Enter the LVO list and the ynnari problem. I knew soulburst was too good when I read the index. Ynnari as a stand alone army was nerfed into the ground, and I think most reasonable people felt it was justified. Now ynnari survives as a small detachment in either a craftworld or dark eldar list a-la the LVO list, and now people are screaming for even more nerfs. What I'm wondering is, if you nerf the ynnari even further, at that point, does it not make more sense to just scrap them completely? I mean, if you nerf them yet again, what is the point really? The only thing that actually makes them different is soulburst, it's literally the only difference.

The setting was perfectly fine before the Ynarri were a thing. It'll survive perfectly fine without them.

Eldar were god tier in 2nd ed. So there is no "before" they were god tier.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar were god tier in 2nd ed. So there is no "before" they were god tier.

There was a slump in 4e/5e were they were 'only' mid-tier.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The setting was perfectly fine before the Ynarri were a thing. It'll survive perfectly fine without them.

I don't necessarily disagree, but just to confirm, you are advocating for them just to be removed?

Oh, the pearl clutching! Only mid-tier! Scandalous!

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar were god tier in 2nd ed. So there is no "before" they were god tier.

Perhaps, I was a middle schooler when I started playing them with my buddies, we had no clue about competitive lists, I was thinking more about those middle editions when they were average.

 peteralmo wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The setting was perfectly fine before the Ynarri were a thing. It'll survive perfectly fine without them.

I don't necessarily disagree, but just to confirm, you are advocating for them just to be removed?

Sure. There are way to many factions at the moment. If Ynarri were going to stay a thing they should have been rolled into CWE or DE.

Genestealer cults should have been rolled into Tyranids.

Sisters should be rolled into Inquisition.

And so forth.

Yep, Ynnari can disappear...and it wouldn't hurt much at all. GW didn't, or hasn't yet done anything with them, so they're just a random story-off-shoot which adds nothing to the game.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The setting was perfectly fine before the Ynarri were a thing. It'll survive perfectly fine without them.

I don't necessarily disagree, but just to confirm, you are advocating for them just to be removed?

Sure. There are way to many factions at the moment. If Ynarri were going to stay a thing they should have been rolled into CWE or DE.

Genestealer cults should have been rolled into Tyranids.

Sisters should be rolled into Inquisition.

And so forth.

I'm pretty much in agreement with that, especially the genestealer cult and sisters comparisons.

I like Soulburst as a theoretical exercise; with a normal Eldar army the alpha-strike is a serious problem, if you don't get first turn you get pretty mangled by the alpha-strike so they started designing Craftworld units so that you can put out a lot of damage even if that happens, which makes them too good if you get the alpha-strike because the army is designed to let about half of it put out the damage a full list would normally put out in a competitive setting because you have to assume that when you get alphaed you won't have much more than half your stuff left.

Soulburst is designed to punish armies based on how many Eldar they kill, which could induce your opponent to delay killing a unit to delay the Soulburst.

The problem arises when units whose damage output is balanced around the assumption that a lot of your army is going to die on turn one get to take Soulburst actions, which effectively gives you the advantage of a permanent rolling alpha-strike.

I feel like if Soulburst were to exist as a significant mechanic you'd need to write a specific Ynnari list balanced around using it; with the Ynnari-as-Eldar-soup-with-Soulburst approach everything's either balanced so that Soulburst is dramatically better than not using it or dramatically worse than not using it.

Also this doesn't feel like a proposed rule topic, unless the proposed rule is remove subfactions.

Just make Ynnari units cost a lot more. Done.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Also this doesn't feel like a proposed rule topic, unless the proposed rule is remove subfactions.

The proposed rule is "how do you fix Soulburst?". It's a question, not a proposal, but I'd think this is still the right subforum to put it into.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Also this doesn't feel like a proposed rule topic, unless the proposed rule is remove subfactions.

The proposed rule is "how do you fix Soulburst?". It's a question, not a proposal, but I'd think this is still the right subforum to put it into.

Agreed, I did put some thought into what sub-forum to put this in, at the end of the day we are discussing changing certain rules. I don't see any other place to put it that is better than here.


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Martel732 wrote:
Just make Ynnari units cost a lot more. Done.

This seems to be your answer to any units you don't like or think are too good, from a number of other comments I've seen you make on different threads. It doesn't really address the core premise, which is, is the community in general at odds with the foundational mechanic of an entire sub-faction (soulburst/ynnari), and rather than nerfing into some completely unappealing or unplayable form, simply scrap it and start over.

Also, "X should cost more points," is a purely subjective analysis. You believe it's clear that it should cost more. But that doesn't mean that people who's job it is to play test everything against everything else would come to the same conclusion. I think genestealers are too good in their current iteration of cheap obsec troop choices that play way more like elite/fast attack specialist units that decimate anything they touch. But I completely concede that my analysis is purely subjective, and is by no means law or consensus.

Martel732 wrote:
Just make Ynnari units cost a lot more. Done.

There aren't any Ynnari units besides the Triumvirate, which aren't that bad anyway. The points are fine, it's more to do with Soulburst.

Soulburst mechanic is hecka strong, even with the 'nerfs' it has received (Cant use during you opponents turn, must have one of the three as your warlord to access ynnari)

It's a mechanic that rewards lucky plays with more plays. The problem is that since they dont have a codex out atm (don't know when it is gonna come out) people use them as a eldar soup mix when it was clear that this was supposed to be an entirely new faction in the Aeldari lore and game play wise. That said, I cannot think of a way to tame soulburst without completely making it useless or a niche thing. Which is sad because the ability itself is quite cool from both a fluff and mechanical point of view.

The only idea i could think of is that when they do get a codex, they'll take out the 'anyone can be ynnari' and just make it so that units from both craftworlds and drukhari are in the codex. With the Ynnari faction keyword replacing their normal rules. This way, you can still take them in a normal CW or drukhari list, but only part of your army has access to souburst.

ATM, limiting access to soulburst would actually fix the problem

The Ynnari keyword really should replace the Craftworld keyword, it's silly that you can stack stratagems and rules from several sources in that way.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Ynnari keyword really should replace the Craftworld keyword, it's silly that you can stack stratagems and rules from several sources in that way.

This is probably too strong, I agree with that, the saim hann advance and charge stratagem is particularly brutal in conjunction with soulburst and quicken. I think I'd rather see Ynnari scraped all-together rather than see certain units get a big price hike. People think price increases will fix the units, they never do, they just make the units obsolete and go to the shelf. If Dark Reapers or Shining Spears became 50 points a model tomorrow, me and every other eldar player wouldn't say, "well all in all that was pretty fair, let me adjust my list accordingly." More like, "OK well these are gone, what other combination of units offers great value/rate."

Only players who purely play to the fluff, or play to have fun only, and not necessarily win (I applaud this perspective by the way, for home games and such), pick units that they simply like, or that look cool, or have cool lore, regardless of their cost or potency. Any player who builds lists to play at "tournaments," local or big, is picking units based on efficiency, value, rate, etc. "Just double there points cost! That'll do the trick!" never works the way people think it will.

Case-in-point, the shadow spectres were incredibly competitive at 23 ppm, they received a 30% price hike going to 33 ppm and now they've completely disappeared from the competitive scene. I own 12 of them /facepalm. Do I still play with them? Sure. During my friendly home games with my close friends.

TLDR: Jacking up the cost of things like reapers and spears doesn't make them more appropriate for the competitive scene, it removes them from the scene all together.

While soul burst sounds cool and fluffy, it's very mechanic make it damn near impossible to cost effectively.
The underlying mechanic need to be scrapped and replaced with a mechanic that has someway of costing it appropriatly.
Otherwise anyone not using soulburst will be paying the soulbusted points for units, that won't be that effective or soulburst units will be op as they are now.

Ice_can wrote:
While soul burst sounds cool and fluffy, it's very mechanic make it damn near impossible to cost effectively.
The underlying mechanic need to be scrapped and replaced with a mechanic that has someway of costing it appropriatly.
Otherwise anyone not using soulburst will be paying the soulbusted points for units, that won't be that effective or soulburst units will be op as they are now.

I agree that soulburst is very good, but is it "broken?" I ask because most current codexes have received some sort of double-shooting: slaanesh stratagem, grinding advance for russ's, fire prism stratagem, weapons from the dark age is a pseudo double tap etc. If soulburst is broken, are all these other double shooting mechanics also broken?

Ynnari needs to not be able to be put on everything, and instead needs a codex asap.

That's how you would fix it, by making Ynnari Faction keyword an actual faction keyword specific to Ynnari units who only can get Ynnari things, not craftworld or Kabal stuff (when that comes out) then and only then will soulburst actually be something that is strong but scaled fairly.

Cause at that point soulburst will only effect Ynnari, not every aeldari unit.

Also, the difference of soulburst to stratagems is that the stratagem can only be used once per turn in matched play, abilities specific to units are specific usually to one of it's weapons. While soulburst has no limit during your turn. That is the difference

mchammadad wrote:
Ynnari needs to not be able to be put on everything, and instead needs a codex asap.

That's how you would fix it, by making Ynnari Faction keyword an actual faction keyword specific to Ynnari units who only can get Ynnari things, not craftworld or Kabal stuff (when that comes out) then and only then will soulburst actually be something that is strong but scaled fairly.

Cause at that point soulburst will only effect Ynnari, not every aeldari unit.

Also, the difference of soulburst to stratagems is that the stratagem can only be used once per turn in matched play, abilities specific to units are specific usually to one of it's weapons. While soulburst has no limit during your turn. That is the difference

But soulburst absolutely has the same limit, you can only choose each mode once, ie only one unit per turn can double shoot, that's no different than a stratagem like the slaanesh one. In fact one unit, once per turn, to me, seems inherently weaker than being able to spam units that have built in double shooting without restriction, like spamming russ's or fire prisms.

Those are stratigums that cost CP are once per phase, usually are phase specific hence limit use, stength from death triggers in both players turn, in each phase and has no limit to times it can trigger.

It allows you to interrupt the whole basis of IGYG in a way that can give many of your units effectivly free turns. How do you point balance that? Plus all the other general eldar shenanigans.

Ice_can wrote:
Those are stratigums that cost CP are once per phase, usually are phase specific hence limit use, stength from death triggers in both players turn, in each phase and has no limit to times it can trigger.

It allows you to interrupt the whole basis of IGYG in a way that can give many of your units effectivly free turns. How do you point balance that? Plus all the other general eldar shenanigans.

Uhh...what? Soulburst can only happen on your turn. It seems like there's a lot of complaining about Ynnari by people who don't understand how it works. This is the second person so far, and only on this page.

Strength from death doesn't have any such limitations that I remeber from the index the only phase except from soulburst is moral.

It also doesn't specify friendly unit so why wouldn't it trigger when my unit dies?

So your saying it can never trigger during an eldar players turn? Even if I wipe out a unit in your assualt phase?

The way to fix Ynnari is to make them a faction unto themselves.

You replace the <Craftworld> and <Whatever the hell DEldar get> Keyword with YNNARI. They get their own relics, warlord traits, and stratagems. Eldar and Delder stratagems don't work on Ynnari and Ynnari don't work on Craftworld/DEldar.

Now the Ynnari function more like Dark Angles or Blood Angles and it all balances out.

CA "fixed" that aspect of soul burst.

Now it can only activate in the ynarri players turn and only once per action type (move, shoot, fight).

It's the same problem now that the marine codex has but with actual good units. The codex is tuned to be used with Guilliman (reroll all hits/wounds) so either you tune down the entire codex to account for the optimum situation (marine dex problem) or you tone down the offending ability/entity.

I think it should just be a spell (WoP) and the ynarri faction needs a new trick (+1 to hit or wound for units that have suffered a casualty/wound would fit the SfD idea?)

Scrap ‘em. There should only be CWE and DE. Merge the other subfactions into these. Fewer factions = better balance. And quicker finished editions (“finished edition” = release of all codices).

Lots of other factions ought to be merged. Custodes + grey knights, inquisition + sisters, tyranid + genestealer cult, drukhari + harlequins. Rewrite lore as needed.

Ok don't play against eldar regularly enough at the moment but thats actually not so bad.
I remeber the rules I experianced not the later fix.