Yncarne kills Wulfen, do they get to hit him back before teleports away?

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**xTHExCLINCHERx**

The Yncarne charges Wulfen, and kills them all in a single fight phase. Can the Yncarne then teleport away (just outside of 1" from the Wulfen) BEFORE they fight upon death?

Wulfen rule Death Frenzy reads:

"...If a model in this unit is slain in the Fight phase, once the unit that slew them has made its attacks, you can attack with them before removing their model as a casualty, even if they have already attacked that phase."

Yncarne rule Inevitable Death reads:

"...Each time a unit (friend of foe) is completely destroyed, you may immediately remove the Yncarne from the battlefield and set it up again as close as possible to the position of that unit, more than 1" from all enemy models..."

I feel like the answer here is that the Yncarne player gets to decide which "happens first" because they both happen "Immediately", and it's the Yncarne player's turn... thoughts from other players out there?

**mhalko1**

I would say no. The wulfen models are not removed as casualties prior to this last strike. It says so in the Death Frenzy description. Therefore they would strike first and if the yncarne lives the Inevitable Death rule then applies.

**JohnnyHell**

Death Frenzy's trigger here is the Yncarne finishing it's attacks, and you do the Death Frenzy attacks before removing the Wulfen.

The Inevitable Death trigger is the Wulfen being removed, which hasn't yet happened.

TLDR: Death Frenzy activates first.

**The Sentinel**

Just to add a little bit here I think some of the confusion with the rules comes from fast dice rolling. We’re typically rolling everything at once to speed things up, but if you follow the rules each attack, wound and save would be resolved one at a time and as such you would be removing each Wulfen model one at a time also. Prior to removing you would get to do its attacks.

**RejjeN**

The Sentinel wrote:
Just to add a little bit here I think some of the confusion with the rules comes from fast dice rolling. We’re typically rolling everything at once to speed things up, but if you follow the rules each attack, wound and save would be resolved one at a time and as such you would be removing each Wulfen model one at a time also. Prior to removing you would get to do its attacks.

Which means the only real contention here is whether the final Wulfen would get to attack or not.

Personally I believe it's as mhalko1 said, until the model is removed the unit shouldn't be considered destroyed. But then again Warhammer rules logic often make no sense to me, so maybe this could be one of those times.

**JohnnyHell**

There's no confusion or contention here. Mhalko1 and I have posted the only correct way to apply these rules together.

**Elric Greywolf**

...there is confusion, otherwise there wouldn't be a thread about this topic. The confusion has been clarified, but claiming there's none floating around is a tad demeaning to the confused.

**JohnnyHell**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
...there is confusion, otherwise there wouldn't be a thread about this topic. The confusion has been clarified, but claiming there's none floating around is a tad demeaning to the confused.

I meant in the wording of the rules, of course comprehension may vary, as ever. Wasn't intending to insult anyone, apologies if read that way. There's also nothing contentious unless you misparse the rules. ''Twas all I meant.

**Kommissar Kel**

We do not have "unit is completely destroyed" rules(or rather definition); We have rules for a Model that is slain, or destroyed and removed from play.

The wulfen models get slain, and move to the next from attacks before getting removed from play: the models still exist until they are removed as casualties after making a ingle attack per slain model.

Once all the models in the wulfen unit that have been slain make their attack they get removed as casualty(removed from play); so they get their attacks before the yncarne can teleport away.

**Marmatag**

The Wulfen attacks happen before the model is removed as a casualty.

The Inevitable Death can't trigger until the unit is removed.

It goes:

Yncarcne deals lethal damage
Wulfen attack back
Wulfen removed
Inevitable death triggers

So all the Wulfen get to attack including the last one slain.