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Over the last nine months I’ve been working with some others on creating some modular card based building terrain to be used in 28mm tabletop miniature games. We’re now at the point of reaching a finalized functioning prototype and would like to gauge the greater community to evaluate the level of interest in us producing these for sale and on what scale.

As such I’ve made a survey, https://goo.gl/forms/pkZUAieTPEvNJeDH3 ,
which can be easily filled out in around 5-7 mins, that would help us hugely in bringing this product to market. Calling out to all those who have any curiosity in such a project to please fill out, share and notify us of your interest.

Thank you!

Card terrain doesn't look nearly as good as standard stuff. So to me it's only worth it if it provides something normal terrain doesn't.
If it's easy to store (like a full table's worth of stuff in a box comparable to a large board game box) and it doesn't break the bank, then I could definitely see that as an alternative to normal stuff, to use once in a while for variety.

Completed the form more out of a general passion for SF terrain than any particular love for card-based systems.

TBH, I'd "imagine" Battle Systems would be hard to top, but I've never seen their stuff in real life ... so open mind and all that.

done

I do think there is a place for card terrain but with all of the plastic, resin, and mdf stuff out there I think you need to find the right niche.

For me that niche seems to be entry level. Cheap, easy to put together and pre coloured.

Me personaly if I'm looking at a complex build and I have to paint what I've built I'd rather go for another material because of durability concerns.

But if I could put together a quick cheap nice looking table of terrain for a reasonable price, especially for something like necromunda or infinity which are so terrain heavy then I'd be very tempted. This would be something I'd look at as a disposable purchase of sorts. Until I can slowly replace the stuff with either bits I've made or stuff that's more expensive but higher quality in terms of detail and materials.

Completed - and very interested in seeing what you come up with!

Done. However, for card terrain, I clicked on the lowest prices, simply because an answer was required. My actual answer in both cases would be "less than this".

fresus wrote:
Card terrain doesn't look nearly as good as standard stuff. So to me it's only worth it if it provides something normal terrain doesn't.
If it's easy to store (like a full table's worth of stuff in a box comparable to a large board game box) and it doesn't break the bank, then I could definitely see that as an alternative to normal stuff, to use once in a while for variety.

Hi, thanks for your interest. One of the driving aims of the project was to see how much could be packed back flat into a box while keeping the price as friendly as possible. Hopefully there will be something there that appeals to you. Cheers


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 Sasquatch wrote:
I do think there is a place for card terrain but with all of the plastic, resin, and mdf stuff out there I think you need to find the right niche.

For me that niche seems to be entry level. Cheap, easy to put together and pre coloured.

Me personaly if I'm looking at a complex build and I have to paint what I've built I'd rather go for another material because of durability concerns.

But if I could put together a quick cheap nice looking table of terrain for a reasonable price, especially for something like necromunda or infinity which are so terrain heavy then I'd be very tempted. This would be something I'd look at as a disposable purchase of sorts. Until I can slowly replace the stuff with either bits I've made or stuff that's more expensive but higher quality in terms of detail and materials.

HI, thanks for your response. All good points raised. Some of what you mentioned is exactly what we're currently aiming for, so stay tuned.


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 Alpharius wrote:
Completed - and very interested in seeing what you come up with!

Thanks for the support!


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stroller wrote:
Done. However, for card terrain, I clicked on the lowest prices, simply because an answer was required. My actual answer in both cases would be "less than this".

Hi, thanks for helping out. Price is a main concern for us, so we'll see what we can do.


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 jeff white wrote:
done

Thanks for the assist!


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 War Drone wrote:
Completed the form more out of a general passion for SF terrain than any particular love for card-based systems.

TBH, I'd "imagine" Battle Systems would be hard to top, but I've never seen their stuff in real life ... so open mind and all that.

Thanks for filling out the survey. I foresee a few card based terrain systems in the market over the coming years, which I think is awesome. I imagine they'll have enough variety for everyone to find at least one they like. Cheers.

fresus wrote:
Card terrain doesn't look nearly as good as standard stuff.

Question - what is 'standard stuff'?

There's a huge range of materials on the market for terrain. MDF/HDF has gotten very popular, particularly with skirmish games. It has the same issues as cardstock in that it's flat and detail needs to be built up with etching or layers. You've got foamed PVC, which can have texture pressed into it. All three cardstock, MDF/HDF and foamed PVC can be pre coloured via printing or painting. You've also got high impact foam, vacuum pressed foam, resin, acrylic sheet and HIPS (hard plastic).

The terrain manufacturing industry is more fractured in material used than the miniature industry.

 -Loki- wrote:

fresus wrote:
Card terrain doesn't look nearly as good as standard stuff.

Question - what is 'standard stuff'?

There's a huge range of materials on the market for terrain. MDF/HDF has gotten very popular, particularly with skirmish games. It has the same issues as cardstock in that it's flat and detail needs to be built up with etching or layers. You've got foamed PVC, which can have texture pressed into it. All three cardstock, MDF/HDF and foamed PVC can be pre coloured via printing or painting. You've also got high impact foam, vacuum pressed foam, resin, acrylic sheet and HIPS (hard plastic).

The terrain manufacturing industry is more fractured in material used than the miniature industry.

Hi Loki. All good points. The materials that could be used are many and varied as you rightly mentioned.

To clarify for this project though, at this stage an inner layer of 2mm card stock book ended by printed paper will be the material used for the card pieces. Many of the materials mentioned above were deliberated at length in the initial concept phase but card and paper both ended up having a lot more benefits and aligned with our vision of producing a price friendly product.

BabelSnake wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

fresus wrote:
Card terrain doesn't look nearly as good as standard stuff.

Question - what is 'standard stuff'?

There's a huge range of materials on the market for terrain. MDF/HDF has gotten very popular, particularly with skirmish games. It has the same issues as cardstock in that it's flat and detail needs to be built up with etching or layers. You've got foamed PVC, which can have texture pressed into it. All three cardstock, MDF/HDF and foamed PVC can be pre coloured via printing or painting. You've also got high impact foam, vacuum pressed foam, resin, acrylic sheet and HIPS (hard plastic).

The terrain manufacturing industry is more fractured in material used than the miniature industry.

Hi Loki. All good points. The materials that could be used are many and varied as you rightly mentioned.

To clarify for this project though, at this stage an inner layer of 2mm card stock book ended by printed paper will be the material used for the card pieces. Many of the materials mentioned above were deliberated at length in the initial concept phase but card and paper both ended up having a lot more benefits and aligned with our vision of producing a price friendly product.

I was replying to fresus because of the 'standard stuff' comment. There really isn't 'standard stuff' in terrain making.

Keen to see what you come up with. The last guy making this kind of carstock terrain that can pull apart and be put back together was doing it specifically with Infinity in mind and ended up calling it quits, IIRC, when it starting taking too much of his time. He had a couple of kickstarters I wish I got in on because a table worth of terrain that can collapse and be put away is a huge boon for Infinity.

Yes your right, standard stuff doesn't really mean anything.
In this instance, I meant terrain in which walls have a thickness. When you see a ruin made from card stock with pretty much no thickness, it slightly breaks the immersion, because it looks too unrealistic. And this is something you immediately notice from far away, no matter how good the cards look. The lack of details on the surface isn't as problematic to me, as long as there is a good quality image printed on the cards. From a distance I can't really see if the details are printed on a flat thing, or if there is an actual texture.

That's also why I think card terrain is much better for complete buildings (a block with no window or opening), since that way you can't see that the material has no thickness. Incidentally, that's also a good type of terrain for 40K 8th edition, since it blocks LoS completely.

That depends what they’re ruins of.

If they’re ruins of a stone building, like a castle wall, sure cardstock doesn’t look great. If it’s a burned out wooden house, or sci fi building, the walls will be thinner, and cardstock is fine. 2mm is the same as a lot of places use for MDF terrain for Wild West, Victorian era, sci fi, etc. it’s fine for those.

There's a couple of tricks we're implementing to overcome the whole thin wall dilemma. Closer to release we'll start releasing images which will begin to give you all a better idea.

Card buildings were the norm in the beginning, although basic can look good

Who remembers the ork Dreadnought?

The original card structures sell well on eBay, I missed out on a mint fire base that was still boxed

I have very little interest in most printed card terrain. It doesn't look that convincing and there's tons of it avaialble already online as print-yourself for free or cheap. and However I do like the laser cut, and often multi-layer products offered by companies like DRD and especially Laser Cut Card.

DRD has very interesting card base toppers that look great and are super easy to work with. I built most of my buildigns out of other materials, but LaserCutCard has really compelling buildings, vehicles and accessories that look good (usually multilayerd) and really are a savings over similar products from other materials.

Completed.

Although, in the long run I want to handmake my own terrain, I would, for the sake of getting games up and running fast, consider buying card terrain for the right price and if I liked the look.

stroller wrote:
Done. However, for card terrain, I clicked on the lowest prices, simply because an answer was required. My actual answer in both cases would be "less than this".

Agreed. Card will have to be cheaper than MDF.

Although I will paint it, the TT Combat sci-fi gothic set I just bought would fill out much more than the first of your questions asks, and was only £20 delivered.

 RedMesa2391 wrote:
Completed.

Although, in the long run I want to handmake my own terrain, I would, for the sake of getting games up and running fast, consider buying card terrain for the right price and if I liked the look.

Cheers. Thanks for the help on that.

One of the main reasons I was developing this was that I had loved scratch building terrain in the past but find little time to do it now. I needed an option which could be put together quick for a battle and save on time investment.


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Rybrook wrote:
Card buildings were the norm in the beginning, although basic can look good

Thanks for weighing in on that. I agree, for most situations, basic can look good and work well.


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Herbington wrote:

stroller wrote:
Done. However, for card terrain, I clicked on the lowest prices, simply because an answer was required. My actual answer in both cases would be "less than this".

Agreed. Card will have to be cheaper than MDF.

Although I will paint it, the TT Combat sci-fi gothic set I just bought would fill out much more than the first of your questions asks, and was only £20 delivered.

Price is a real driving factor for this project and something I'm really pushing for to get the best value for money possible. While invariably it will be put up against all options, when comparing, I'd venture to do so against others of similar materials and options. Apples to Oranges and all that.

The elephant in the room is MDF. Done right it can be superb (4Ground probably doing the best stuff thus far).

Card terrain needs to undercut the cost by a good 20-30%. Another concern is that the "next" evolution of MDF is MDF terrain with graphic/layers glued to them (some companies are doing this).

Card has a few pros:
+Cheap (or it should be)
+Robust if made from the right material.
+Lightweight (ish)
+Can have graphics printed onto it and delivery very good facades.

With regard to the survey, a 14"x14"9" building --- if not overly elaborate would need to be $17-20. I can get some really excellent MDF kits (which I'd prefer) for $5-10 more than that.

My favourite card terrain was all of the stuff GW did with it in the late 90's. The plastic sprues which were combined with the card terrain made some really robust and cool stuff.



This stuff is still floating around on tables.



One thing I'd suggest with cardboard terrain is to skip the "tiny" stuff for now and concentrate on big, quality buildings. I know that company who did the lovely modular cardboard Kickstarters went heavy into all kinds of tiny things. That's probably not necessary to start. Large buildings which block line of sight, etc. would be preferable.

Will do it

Card terrain is garbage across the board. Cheapens the game

Considering the garbage I see on most wargaming tables, I'd take properly assembled cardboard over most of it. Would I use it on my tables? No, but as an option for people who don't do much in the way of hobbying - it's an excellent option.

Card terrain is an excellent option for many people. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have either the money, time, or talent to make terrain of their own. And card terrain has one key advantage over mdf, plastic, and resin terrain: it's already "painted".

Yeah card is honestly a pretty good option for those just starting out. they wont last terribly long but they will function for the most part.
as well scale an function is important.

for smaller scale games like DZC its perfect. im sure it would be great for games like team yankee and epic.

less so for 40k or AOs where people run around on top and inside most pieces. (if they are unsupported or too thin)

I like all of Dave Graffam's stuff, especially the fantasy selection, and his modular Necromunda-style scenery is awesome. Hardly in the realm of 'Garbage'.

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah card is honestly a pretty good option for those just starting out. they wont last terribly long but they will function for the most part.
as well scale an function is important.

for smaller scale games like DZC its perfect. im sure it would be great for games like team yankee and epic.

less so for 40k or AOs where people run around on top and inside most pieces. (if they are unsupported or too thin)

I've got card terrain dating back to 1993, and it's still fine (the card ruins from 2nd edition 40k). It's storage that's the issue, rather than use, I find. For example, all the damage to the old Necromunda buildings came during assembly and disassembly; if you leave them assembled, they're better off. Those buildings will hold anything up to and including a metal dreadnought (even the walkways, with a little reinforcing). The thinner card buildings that came in White Dwarf are flimsier, but even those will last if reinforced and based.


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 AegisGrimm wrote:
I like all of Dave Graffam's stuff, especially the fantasy selection, and his modular Necromunda-style scenery is awesome. Hardly in the realm of 'Garbage'.

Are those photos of actual products, or renders?

Both of those buildings would be vastly improved (albeit more expensive and more complex to assemble) if they had multiple layers. The fantasy building, for example; the timbers in the wall could stand proud of the plaster; same with the corner stones, and overlapping rows of tiles rather than a flat roof.

 Elbows wrote:
The elephant in the room is MDF. Done right it can be superb (4Ground probably doing the best stuff thus far).

Agreed on all accounts. MDF can be an awesome material for terrain. As you go on to rightfully point out, card does have its own advantages also.

I think it's just a matter of fitting to purpose. What surprised me when first playing games was that "shock horror!" not everyone painted their miniatures and made scratch built terrain. I came to see pretty quickly that there is a large section of players who either lack the time, money or skill required to do that but really would like to play a game with some interesting terrain pieces.

I see a place for card, MDF, scratch built and a myriad of other options, just a matter of what you need at the time.


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Card terrain is an excellent option for many people. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have either the money, time, or talent to make terrain of their own. And card terrain has one key advantage over mdf, plastic, and resin terrain: it's already "painted".

Thanks. That's pretty much what I was trying to get at above.


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 AegisGrimm wrote:
I like all of Dave Graffam's stuff, especially the fantasy selection, and his modular Necromunda-style scenery is awesome. Hardly in the realm of 'Garbage'.

Indeed. That looks great!


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I've got card terrain dating back to 1993, and it's still fine (the card ruins from 2nd edition 40k). It's storage that's the issue, rather than use, I find. For example, all the damage to the old Necromunda buildings came during assembly and disassembly; if you leave them assembled, they're better off. Those buildings will hold anything up to and including a metal dreadnought (even the walkways, with a little reinforcing). The thinner card buildings that came in White Dwarf are flimsier, but even those will last if reinforced and based.

Yeah. I've also seen a few older items which have lasted the test of play and time and agree that storage and disassembly play a big factor. Working on a method with this project to help enhance the cards life through repeated use. So far looks promising.

Actually Dave Graffam's terrain looks sweet for printable terrain.

My apologies from calling it print garbage, I'm used to seeing stuff that Warmachine players print up and use on cardboard locally. I'm also the kid who decided to do a full resin demo table last year that was $1k~.

I'm not sure if these are backed with foamcore. I have a really nice printer at my office, but I assume this would be a bit pricey to print at home? Maybe a printer cartridge for the whole table so its still cheap.

It's that model railway track plonked down in the middle there that lets the look of the table down, not the buildings.

Card terrain is fine, you just need to stick it down on a base.

I did that with my mordheim pieces and it’s still going strong all these years later.