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Evening everyone.

Just wanted to get a discussion regarding the Thousand Sons now that the book has been out for a little while.

What's everyone thoughts on how they are doing so far and if overall the book is solid and can be played in a competitive setting.

Also wanted to ask in terms of making a list for Thousand Sons, what is the best direction to go in for troops, and what unit size would be best?

Cheers

Codex tzeench deamonkin is doing ok, not amazing but works, sadly the thousand sons themselves are severely lacking.

You mean codex zangors, I do feel for thousand sons players who basically got told to replace their thousand sons, with an AOS army.

lol, I understand there is some hate for the tzangor elements, though my self I quite like the models overall.

While the codex is indeed tzangoor focus, I personally find that the actual TS section is pretty good.

Several strong units, tons of magic, multiple powerful stratagems, strong relics, strong traits

Its all around just GOOD.

Once you factor in goats, it becomes a seriously brutal codex.

I'm pleased with the codex overall. As BoomWolf said, there are alot of minor things about it that I like, that together makes for a solid codex:

- Warlord Traits? Really good.
- Relics? Really good.
- "Army tactics"? Good.
- Stratagems? Good.
- Psychic powers? Good.

In stark contrast with my Salamanders where I like their chapter tactics, but find the warlord traits/relics/psychic powers and stratagems to all be rather "meh".

Regular Rubric Marines are rather lackluster, but the codex still has many strong units (Daemon Princes, Ahriman, Tzaangors, Enlightened, Skyfires, Spawns, Scarab Occult Terminators, Mutaliths, etc.)

I will let you know after tomorrow lol. Taking a Tson army to a local tourney, no tzaangors of any kind. Rubrics, cultists, sorcerers, and spawns are the main body's of my army.

I like our options and our abilities, without of without the bird people. Sure the tzaangors seem to be the "pretty new focus" but they still work just fine without them.

Just wish rubrics were a bit cheaper. But what can you do :p

It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

Interesting replies.

If you was making a strong 2k list what do you think the must have units are to take?.

I'm assuming for anti tank maybe 3 predators with lascannon, and then troop wise 1 blob of say 25 or 30 tzangors, the remaining 2 cultists Or?

There are no must-have units really, it depends on your game plan.

The closest thing to mandatory I can think of is ahriman. and deamon princes. and termi sorcerers.
Basically, we are spoiled for good HQs.

I have mixed feelings on this codex release. Its no secret that MANY players dislike the tzaangor focus. I am one of them. Ill make a pro's and con's list for ease of reading.

Pro : Great HQ options. However there seems to be a internal balance issue between demon princes and exalted sorc's. There is just no real reason to take exalted sorcs in this codex unless you really need the 40 points it saves or 10 cultists.
Good access to chaos heavy choices. More on this in the cons.
Good stratagems changes how you play the army. Once more this is a double edged sword and more in the cons.
Access to three psyker lists. This will be even more important if the smite nerf comes to pass.
Very good assault options. I myself favor Enlightened over the basic Tzaangor bomb due to auto wounds. Enlightened Tzaangors can threaten light to medium vehicles as well as infantry.
Spawn now do serious work with the new 1cp stratagem. I love spawn models so this is a big bonus for me.
Solid soup ingredients in the form of anything but power armor.

Cons : Magnus is shelved in anything but a casual format. His nerfing along with the gutting of the changeling (demons) have made him to much of a liability when going second vs a alpha strike list. We will have to wait a few years to see if he is worth using again (next codex drop).
Our power armor is the weakest part of our codex. That is right. The weakest units we have are also the most iconic units. Leave the power armor at home for tourneys.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
Perils on aspiring sorcs on rubrics makes using powers to be a very big risk. Which negates the buff they got in the form of being an actual caster.
Heavy focus on goatmen has left a lot of early adopters of the faction in a situation where they basically need to replace their army if they want a competitive list.
If you do decide to take Rubrics you may want to add in a alpha legion detachment as the Basic CSM rubrics are better than ours by a good margin (very very sad). Just paint them as your army color and ignore the fact they are not 1ksons. We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

So all in all I think its a great army. Great looking models and fun and effective rules. The codex works up unto the hardcore tournament level of play. But if you are a chaos player you should be resigned to the fact that we will most likely never be a top tier tournament faction. If these things are fine by you then I would suggest starting this army. I love playing mine but I am not a tournament player. The only real downside was the Magnus nerf which means I will use the model in only the most fluffy of lists.

Oh and we do very well when souped with demons. What I would find interesting is how the codex does with unfluffy demon inclusions, ie adding in Nurgle Demons. But that is blasphemy in its most base form. I hope this helped.

I was thinking of picking up rubrics, but if the main guys of the codex aren't that great than maybe I'll wait

Read the book and make up your own mind. Don't let the hyperbole of the internet decide for you.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Read the book and make up your own mind. Don't let the hyperbole of the internet decide for you.

This is exactly what my stance was. Then I read the book and decided based on my own reasoning that despite my best hopes otherwise it really is Codex: Tzaangors.

I think there are some solid lists out there, obviously Tzaangor focused, if you ally with Daemons. Mono-faction is OK but lacks any shining stars, except the DP but that won't carry an army. I'm still happy with the book, it's just sad that Rubrics remain Forgotten Sons of Magnus.

Secondly, you won't hear very much, if anything IMO, on 1KS in the meta. The army is swingy due to the Elite status. Invulns aren't worth their points in this edition, IMO, and we are costly.

Third, most reviews of the codex don't seem to show that excitement we typically see, even Lawrence as an example, when a faction adds something unique, or powerful, to the meta. Not saying I'm in with Kool-Aid for the online scene, but their reaction matches my own pretty neatly. Cool, fluffy, not a monofaction tournament army for the most part, and don't take Rubrics. SOT are the better option, especially with the Dark Crystal.

I personally think you may see some small allied detatchments, probably Patrols, to get access to the Third Eye and a DP.

I couldn't be happier.

My spells are running the show. Tzaangors do well even when not fully buffed. Scarabs and rubrics have been utra durable and very useful.

Mozzamanx wrote:
It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

I just lost a game today against Tsons and my opponent took tons of Rubrics. I found them tough to shift with their 2+ saves against bolters and such. He supported them well with Ahriman so there's that. Honestly, it has been my experience that what players on the internet say is hardly reflected in actual real life games.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

I just lost a game today against Tsons and my opponent took tons of Rubrics. I found them tough to shift with their 2+ saves against bolters and such. He supported them well with Ahriman so there's that. Honestly, it has been my experience that what players on the internet say is hardly reflected in actual real life games.

people tend to assume when discussing Marines that the enemy will have sufficant heavy weapons to use against the Marines, not every local meta runs lists that heavy on heavy weapons

In general Rubrics and Tzangs mono lists will fare decently, but yes, many top tier TS lists will feature some Tzangs, so if you really hate them you should maybe reconsider.

If you want to understand part of the problem with rubrics look at the Can the MEQ statline be saved thread and realize that rubrics suffer from the same issues but more exagerrated.

Appreciate all the comments.

I'm just trying to decide on a competitive force that's not a soup army.

The gaming group I play in is quite competitive so looking for a force which can compete

All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Table wrote:
.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
[...]
We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

VotLW is great on Rubrics/SOT's, and Webway Infiltration gives us a new way to field Rubrics.
I would've liked more stratagems for them, but saying that we have no Stratagems för Rubrics is just plain wrong.

I’ve had success deep striking a unit of rubrics with flamers

 Xeones7 wrote:
All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Pesonally, Pink deepstrikes with Tzaangor deepstrikes just in front of them, near a herald and Ahriman, are really potent...

1) your pinks deestrike on the edge of 18" away. Yout tzaangors deepstrike in front of them, in standard 9.001" distance.

2) Ahriman warptimes your tzaangor flerd up as close as possible to the bubblewrap. Danger. If up against a psyker army, try to use cabal strat for +3 to cast on this, as it's vital it goes off okay.

3) Your 90 S4 shots at +1 to wound (flickering flames from the herald) with the pinks just absolutely delete any and all bubble wrap in range.

4) your flerd charges in at the defenceless tasty underbelly of your opponent's list, tying up as many units in cc as you can.

5) You activate VotLW and Cycle of Hatred for 3 cps to get 122 attacks at S4, +1 to wound, -1AP. Extra points if you managed to get your shaman bombed forward to make them +1 to hit.

Your opponent must clear those pesky birdies up somehow, whilst your Pinks are free to lay down serious pain next round. Backed by a herald and a DP for the rerolls, they do an expected 8.75 damage to a Predator, so even if your opponent isn't bubblewrapping, they still do lots of jobs very well.

Rubrics are nothing like other MEQs.

They have good offensive power in ranged and decent melee.
They are extremely durable and can manifest and dissipate.

Contrarily to their MEQ cousins, they don't pay the full price for what they have, and instead get a nice package discount.

They are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games. Tzangoors are better for your list only if you want to invest a lot in them, that said, with support they can do really nasty things. If what you need is a self sufficent unit though, rubrics are the obvious choice.

Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

grouchoben wrote:
Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

Wrong.

For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.
Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Table wrote:
.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
[...]
We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

VotLW is great on Rubrics/SOT's, and Webway Infiltration gives us a new way to field Rubrics.
I would've liked more stratagems for them, but saying that we have no Stratagems för Rubrics is just plain wrong.

Ill correct myself. We have no stratagems that are only meant for them or benefit ranged firepower over say, circle of slaughter benefits melee. Webway and Vet and are great stratagems and depending on what you field MAY be better spent on other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xeones7 wrote:
I’ve had success deep striking a unit of rubrics with flamers

But you have to pay like, half your point total to do it. ;P


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:

 Xeones7 wrote:
All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Pesonally, Pink deepstrikes with Tzaangor deepstrikes just in front of them, near a herald and Ahriman, are really potent...

1) your pinks deestrike on the edge of 18" away. Yout tzaangors deepstrike in front of them, in standard 9.001" distance.

2) Ahriman warptimes your tzaangor flerd up as close as possible to the bubblewrap. Danger. If up against a psyker army, try to use cabal strat for +3 to cast on this, as it's vital it goes off okay.

3) Your 90 S4 shots at +1 to wound (flickering flames from the herald) with the pinks just absolutely delete any and all bubble wrap in range.

4) your flerd charges in at the defenceless tasty underbelly of your opponent's list, tying up as many units in cc as you can.

5) You activate VotLW and Cycle of Hatred for 3 cps to get 122 attacks at S4, +1 to wound, -1AP. Extra points if you managed to get your shaman bombed forward to make them +1 to hit.

Your opponent must clear those pesky birdies up somehow, whilst your Pinks are free to lay down serious pain next round. Backed by a herald and a DP for the rerolls, they do an expected 8.75 damage to a Predator, so even if your opponent isn't bubblewrapping, they still do lots of jobs very well.

Would not a terminator warlord sorc be better in this combo over Ahriman?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

Wrong.

For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.
Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

Who is taking big packs of goats and not supporting them? Even Enlightened Goats need support. If you want unsupported melee you are going to have to soup in some zerkers. And Rubrics in CC is a heap of wasted points.

Using 1d weapons against rubrics is a I don't have anything better to shot at option. 2d or up weapons or anything with high AP. Also perils really hurts msu rubrics