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Hey,
Currently I'm milling through ideas as to how Eldar can take on 6-8 flying hive tyrants. As far as I can see, there's no real competitive Eldar list that has any answers to hive tyrant spam and without a strong counter, Eldar wont not need a nerf to be placed back into mid-table obscurity. So my questions is has any body got any sensible ideas on a good counter to nids?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/03 21:34:34
Add a 2 man warlock council to your reaper base for 36" jinx casts (for a cp)? They're less tough when it's a 4+/5++. Those poor locks won't live long though, they don't have character protection and flyrants are fast and shoot.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Add a 2 man warlock council to your reaper base for 36" jinx casts (for a cp)? They're less tough when it's a 4+/5++. Those poor locks won't live long though, they don't have character protection and flyrants are fast and shoot.
Just to be clear this is the type of list I'm talking about ...
I mean, this is why Dark Reapers are popular, right? They're ideal for killing big things with great armor and good invuln saves. But just in general, the standard good Eldar units do well against Tyrants.
A regular 27 point Dark Reaper with no support expects to make back 38% of its points when shooting a 184 point Hive Tyrant. An Exarch with a tempest launcher is a little more efficient than that even. So with equal points in Reapers you expect to knock down almost half of the Tyrants on the turn they drop in.
With support, the Reapers do even better. If you can land Jinx, you shoot one Tyrant 33% more efficiently. Doom or Guide buff shooting by 33% each (Doom buffs Exarchs by 67%). A big Ynnari unit gets to shoot twice. A big unit gets to shoot one of the Tyrants as soon as it deep strikes in, with a Farseer close by.
The other two solid multi-model units do well too. Guardians do almost as well as Reapers, though of course they need to be in range. You probably have some as a screen anyway. They benefit a ton from Doom.
Shining Spears are actually insanely efficient here, though they're tricky since you absolutely need the Tyrant to be dead before it can strike back in CC. A regular Spear kills 51% of its cost in Tyrant when it shoots and charges from 6". Their Exarch is just stupid -- he expects to make back 150% of his cost when he shoots and charges. That is, a 95 point Spear unit expects to knock 5 wounds off of a Tyrant (77 points) if it starts the turn 18" away (or farther with Quicken).
When you bring the standard good Eldar units, you do just fine as long as the Tyrants can't alpha strike you, and that's what Guardians and Rangers are for. This is why the standard competitive Eldar lists are tons of Reapers and Spears and maybe a big Guardian blob with some Rangers.
Edit: Maybe you also have some Wave Serpents. Those are also pretty good here. They don't shoot well but they can put out some emergency mortal wounds to finish off something, and since the list you posted has Mawlocs they're pretty good for tying those up in CC.
Really the only generally-strong Eldar unit that isn't very good against this kind of list is the Hemlock. Tyrants with one set of rending claws are pretty efficient against it, and they'll definitely be in range to charge after the Hemlock shoots once. On the other hand, it's tricky for the Tyrants to go after for the same reason that Spears don't like to charge Tyrants -- if they don't kill the Hemlock when they charge it, they're probably in trouble, so it'll distract at least 2 Tyrants for a turn. And it at least gets to auto-hit on Overwatch.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:41:29
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, this is why Dark Reapers are popular, right? They're ideal for killing big things with great armor and good invuln saves. But just in general, the standard good Eldar units do well against Tyrants.
A regular 27 point Dark Reaper with no support expects to make back 38% of its points when shooting a 184 point Hive Tyrant. An Exarch with a tempest launcher is a little more efficient than that even. So with equal points in Reapers you expect to knock down almost half of the Tyrants on the turn they drop in.
With support, the Reapers do even better. If you can land Jinx, you shoot one Tyrant 33% more efficiently. Doom or Guide buff shooting by 33% each (Doom buffs Exarchs by 67%). A big Ynnari unit gets to shoot twice. A big unit gets to shoot one of the Tyrants as soon as it deep strikes in, with a Farseer close by.
The other two solid multi-model units do well too. Guardians do almost as well as Reapers, though of course they need to be in range. You probably have some as a screen anyway. They benefit a ton from Doom.
Shining Spears are actually insanely efficient here, though they're tricky since you absolutely need the Tyrant to be dead before it can strike back in CC. A regular Spear kills 51% of its cost in Tyrant when it shoots and charges from 6". Their Exarch is just stupid -- he expects to make back 150% of his cost when he shoots and charges. That is, a 95 point Spear unit expects to knock 5 wounds off of a Tyrant (77 points) if it starts the turn 18" away (or farther with Quicken).
When you bring the standard good Eldar units, you do just fine as long as the Tyrants can't alpha strike you, and that's what Guardians and Rangers are for. This is why the standard competitive Eldar lists are tons of Reapers and Spears and maybe a big Guardian blob with some Rangers.
Edit: Maybe you also have some Wave Serpents. Those are also pretty good here. They don't shoot well but they can put out some emergency mortal wounds to finish off something, and since the list you posted has Mawlocs they're pretty good for tying those up in CC.
Really the only generally-strong Eldar unit that isn't very good against this kind of list is the Hemlock. Tyrants with one set of rending claws are pretty efficient against it, and they'll definitely be in range to charge after the Hemlock shoots once. On the other hand, it's tricky for the Tyrants to go after for the same reason that Spears don't like to charge Tyrants -- if they don't kill the Hemlock when they charge it, they're probably in trouble, so it'll distract at least 2 Tyrants for a turn. And it at least gets to auto-hit on Overwatch.
Hey, thanks for the response. In theory you'd be right, unfortunately having so many tough targets drop down turn 1 makes it a natural counter to the current Eldar meta and more or less an instant lose . A unit of 10 reapers is going to do 6.5 damage to a normal hive tyrant, so in order to take down 1 hive tyrant, you'll need around 20 dark reapers.
I think shining spears spam could work, they have the maths on their side (around 3 tyrants a turn per 24 shining spears) but it then you'd also have to consider the support units from the nid list, the spores and Mawlocs, both units able to do serious amounts of damage to a unit of shining spears.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 01:34:20
The only good counter against 4++ or better is spam mortal wounds. I don't know how many choices in dishing mortal wounds Eldar have, hope it is not limited in psychic powers cause Nidz can easily shut that down.
Against multiple hive tyrants, with 4+ invulnerable saves? Not a viable counter unless you spam them.
If your adversary is just spamming one unit type like we're playing bad Starcraft, the correct counter is to spam the counter to that one unit.
No balenced army is going to beat spam, because only like 10% of your army will be it's counter, and some of your army will be hard countered by it.
You can't make a tac list to beat 8 Flyrants. You make an Anti Flyrant list.
But it honestly sounds like a game I wouldn't bother playing outside a torny.
Hey, thanks for the response. In theory you'd be right, unfortunately having so many tough targets drop down turn 1 makes it a natural counter to the current Eldar meta and more or less an instant lose . A unit of 10 reapers is going to do 6.5 damage to a normal hive tyrant, so in order to take down 1 hive tyrant, you'll need around 20 dark reapers.
I think shining spears spam could work, they have the maths on their side (around 3 tyrants a turn per 24 shining spears) but it then you'd also have to consider the support units from the nid list, the spores and Mawlocs, both units able to do serious amounts of damage to a unit of shining spears.
I don't understand why you say it's an insta-lose. You don't have to kill all the Tyrants in 1 turn. They can't do much damage to you on the turn in which they drop in anyway -- the only things they can land within 12" of should be Guardians, Rangers, or maybe Serpents (or Warriors if souping, but I'm just assuming Craftworld in this post). I'm assuming we're mostly talking about Devourer/MRC Tyrants here; they can try to shoot your guys but won't do much, and shooting/Smiting your screens just means that they're more likely to fail their charges. So you should be getting at least one turn with all of your Dark Reapers (plus one volley from a big unit with Forewarned), less only any that got killed by Mawlocs.
It's very unlikely that all of them make their charge too, so with good deployment the Reapers are going to be able to fall back from the farthest ones while concentrating fire on the closest ones, denying charges from the still-living ones on Tyranid turn 2. Your surviving screens can also run around to block movement -- they have Fly but they still have to end their move more than 1" from your stuff, so you can prevent them from taking full advantage of their 16" move to get closer to the Reapers. A single Guardian can cut almost 5" off of a Flyrant's movement by positioning himself 12" away. 3 Guardians can probably push one back at least 8". You can also sacrifice Warlocks for this if necessary. This means that you should be safe from Tyrants that dropped in 14" from any Reapers (which should be all of them) and then failed their turn 1 charge (at least 1/3 of them, probably) -- you move the Reapers 6" away to 20" and then body block the outer limits of the Flyrant's movement so that it can only move 8". You can probably even get away from some of the Flyrants that made their charge, though these would have had to come in more like 24" away from your Reapers (but this is often what they'll do if you're screening pretty far forward and hiding all the Reapers way in the back). Any Reapers which started in Serpents are also going to have a lot of extra effective movement. You also have one use of Fire and Fade.
Then your main concern is killing the relatively few Tyrants that could charge Reapers on turn 2. Ideally you don't need to commit the Spears yet so you can use them to clean up the Mawlocs, but if you can use the Spears to guarantee a kill on an isolated close-in Tyrant, that's also pretty good. They're hard for the Tyrants to shoot to death and charging them means spending another turn far away from the Reapers.
The upshot is that you should be getting at least 2 turns of shooting with almost all of your original Reapers, and 3 turns with the big Forewarned unit. Almost all of this shooting should be buffed by an Autarch and Runes of Witnessing (which amounts to a 36% damage buff). Every Spear unit should be able to shoot and charge at least once, less maybe a few casualties due to Tyrant shooting (but the Exarchs are doing most of the work anyway). That should take enough out of them that they're no longer wiping you out when they do hit you on turn 3, and you win the long game from there.
You're not crushing them -- Tyrants are really good -- but I think the stereotypical competitive Eldar list is favored in the matchup.
Much later edit: Coming back to this, the Mawlocs and Spores are really not a threat at all. First, I assumed that most of the trash units were in the list just to be deployed on the table and enable deep striking -- there are 10 deep strikers with the Tyrants and Mawlocs, and then 9 Mucolids and 3 Rippers. But anyway, deep-striking Mucolids are pretty useless. They come down more than 12" from your stuff and a single shuriken catapult probably kills one before it pops. But you won't even have to shoot them because the whole game plan here is to fall back while killing Tyrants, and spores are really slow.
Mawlocs are actually terrible at killing armored targets. Even with toxin sacs, a Mawloc on average does not even kill a single Shining Spear in a round of combat. Wave Serpents just laugh at them, so failing everything else you can charge them with Serpents to keep them away from your other stuff until a couple Tyrants waste their charges on the Serpent. But a 3-man unit of Spears expects to kill a Mawloc in a single turn, so if you deploy well and the Mawlocs come in on turn 1, you're going to have a free turn with the Spears to mop them up.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 15:32:27
Well flyrants can null-depoly and they really dont need to kill any reapers, just lock them in combat. If there were only 7 tyrants, you could block them out with rangers and serpents, but the Mawlocs mean you'd have to kill them first before you kill the Tyrants. Giving them an extra turn to push ahead.
You can't hide in a corner all game, losing board control means scoring objectives will be very difficult .
There's no point debating the theory of the lists if haven't actually seen the 2 armies face each other.
Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms with Shining spears support. Prisms givers you some solid firepower, spears gives you a solid counter- assault unit and still good vs other armies, Wave serpents gives you board control and extremely tough to kill for the flyrants.
There you go
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The nids hive tyrants list first popped up as a suggested repsponce to reaper spam. It turned out to be an effective counter strategy. It is a rock to your scissors. If you wanne counter it do not play scissors.
The missions at adepticon also benefitted these lists a lot. While they did eccist a strong warness of hive tyrant lists among nid players, it really caught the publics eye at adepticon.
To summerice: Do not play reaper spam into it's counter.
PS: You can wait for the next game patch. But there reapers will probably be nerfed.
Edit: I re-read the OP. Dear poster I think you are delucional if you think reapers do not deserve a nerf just because they cave a counter. They are so format warping that lists revolve around them. Either you play them or you plan against them. For the competetive scene this leaves only a few established lists good. 90% of units and many whole codexes come no where near the baseline as long as the celing of units is that high. GW will look to bring the celing down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 10:44:57
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Crimson Hunter Exarchs. Reroll hits of 1 and all failed wounds, 4 strength 8 weapons, d6 on the two bright lances and 3dmg on the pulse laser. Each CH should do 4.5dmg a round for 175pts, about on par with dark reapers but much much more durable.
Even the hemlock is a pretty good choice averaging 6 wounds with the d-scythes plus smite or jinx.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 17:32:09
darkarchonlord wrote: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Crimson Hunter Exarchs. Reroll hits of 1 and all failed wounds, 4 strength 8 weapons, d6 on the two bright lances and 3dmg on the pulse laser. Each CH should do 4.5dmg a round for 175pts, about on par with dark reapers but much much more durable.
Even the hemlock is a pretty good choice averaging 6 wounds with the d-scythes plus smite or jinx.
This is only true if the Tyrants are purely shooty. If the Tyrants have MRCs then the flyers are very vulnerable to them. They'll be happy to charge a Hemlock and tear it to pieces.
Dionysodorus wrote: They'll be happy to charge a Hemlock and tear it to pieces.
Wouldn't that be a mistake for the Tyrants? 2D3 auto hits for overwatch might actually kill a Tyrant, especially if it was already wounded for the Hemlock getting close to it in the first place. Certainly not a guarantee and the Hemlokc may still have a bad day, but getting charged is actually a main reason I use Hemlocks as screening units. They block movement and the units that can charge them often don't want the overwatch.
If I knew I was going up against 7 Tyrants, I'd load my list with 1 Battalion with 2 Skyrunner Autarch w/ Reaper launchers and Banshee masks, 3 Ranger units and the rest of the army would be Flyer detachments of CHE and Hemlocks. I think you can fit 4 of each. The Hemlocks and Rangers screen and the CHE focus on dropping whatever the Hemlocks don't kill. I am confident this list could drop 4, maybe 5, Tyrants per turn The Autarch shoot pot shots and charge weakened units.
It wouldn't win a tourney due to lack so ground forces, but it should negate Tyrant spam
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 21:26:18
Dionysodorus wrote: They'll be happy to charge a Hemlock and tear it to pieces.
Wouldn't that be a mistake for the Tyrants? 2D3 auto hits for overwatch might actually kill a Tyrant, especially if it was already wounded for the Hemlock getting close to it in the first place.
Certainly not a guarantee and the Hemlokc may still have a bad day, but getting charged is actually a main reason I use Hemlocks as screening units.
They block movement and the units that can charge them often don't want the overwatch.
If I knew I was going up against 7 Tyrants, I'd load my list with 1 Battalion with 2 Skyrunner Autarch w/ Reaper launchers and Banshee masks, 3 Ranger units and the rest of the army would be Flyer detachments of CHE and Hemlocks. I think you can fit 4 of each.
The Hemlocks and Rangers screen and the CHE focus on dropping whatever the Hemlocks don't kill.
The Autarch shoot pot shots and charge weakened units.
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A Hemlock shooting a Leviathan flyrant (normally or in Overwatch) only expects 2.22 wounds. That 4++ makes them very durable. Meanwhile a flyrant with MRCs expects 4.63 wounds on a Hemlock in CC (and another 1 from shooting). So they have a pretty easy time ganging up on Hemlocks and bringing them down. And SitW and flyrant denial make it very hard for the Hemlocks to Smite.
Crimson Hunters are a much better bet here, especially if you can keep them from getting charged without giving up any shooting (and this is probably possible). Your worry going very flyer-heavy would just be objectives and tabling, I guess, though maybe the flyrants could split up and guarantee charges on some of the flyers.
Dionysodorus wrote: A Hemlock shooting a Leviathan flyrant (normally or in Overwatch) only expects 2.22 wounds. That 4++ makes them very durable. Meanwhile a flyrant with MRCs expects 4.63 wounds on a Hemlock in CC (and another 1 from shooting). So they have a pretty easy time ganging up on Hemlocks and bringing them down. And SitW and flyrant denial make it very hard for the Hemlocks to Smite.
Crimson Hunters are a much better bet here, especially if you can keep them from getting charged without giving up any shooting (and this is probably possible). Your worry going very flyer-heavy would just be objectives and tabling, I guess, though maybe the flyrants could split up and guarantee charges on some of the flyers.
I agree overall, which is why I'd suggest using both Hemlocks and CHE. The CHE stay back and focus Tyrants until they have 1-2 wounds left. The Hemlocks position themselves in a way that the Tyrants could not fly over them, but are just in range to be shoot. The idea would be to kill 2-3 Tyrants and cripple several others. When they try to charge, those average 2.22 wounds could very well kill them. At the very least, the Tyrants will not be able to gang up on more than 2 Hemlocks. That would leave the 4 CHE and 2 Hemlock untouched for the next turn.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 21:52:56
Not sure what kind of response OP wants - Dionysodorus already made some solid points and Galef has added some alternatives (that make sense).
Solutions have been offered you can't bury your head in the sand or reject all the solutions that are being offered and/or call the end of all things from one tournament result (tyranid weren't even represented in LVO top 16 I don't think, and the codex was out with flyrants being used by some - maybe the list wasn't fully optimized at that time???).
The scoring system makes a huge difference in tournament setting as noted in the thread.
Lastly before you hit the panic button - Flyrants are probably going to get nerfed (along with a lot of other units) presumably in the incumbent FAQ. Maybe just wait 2 weeks...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 22:12:41
orkswubwub wrote: Not sure what kind of response OP wants - Dionysodorus already made some solid points and Galef has added some alternatives (that make sense).
Solutions have been offered you can't bury your head in the sand or reject all the solutions that are being offered and/or call the end of all things from one tournament result (tyranid weren't even represented in LVO top 16 I don't think, and the codex was out with flyrants being used by some - maybe the list wasn't fully optimized at that time???).
The scoring system makes a huge difference in tournament setting as noted in the thread.
Lastly before you hit the panic button - Flyrants are probably going to get nerfed (along with a lot of other units) presumably in the incumbent FAQ. Maybe just wait 2 weeks...
This. was gonna respond to this myself hours ago, but felt Diony's answer good enough. lol, so i deleted it feeling foolish.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 04:35:34
I hope this thread is made moot by both problems being nerfed.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Dionysodorus wrote: A Hemlock shooting a Leviathan flyrant (normally or in Overwatch) only expects 2.22 wounds. That 4++ makes them very durable. Meanwhile a flyrant with MRCs expects 4.63 wounds on a Hemlock in CC (and another 1 from shooting). So they have a pretty easy time ganging up on Hemlocks and bringing them down. And SitW and flyrant denial make it very hard for the Hemlocks to Smite.
Crimson Hunters are a much better bet here, especially if you can keep them from getting charged without giving up any shooting (and this is probably possible). Your worry going very flyer-heavy would just be objectives and tabling, I guess, though maybe the flyrants could split up and guarantee charges on some of the flyers.
I agree overall, which is why I'd suggest using both Hemlocks and CHE. The CHE stay back and focus Tyrants until they have 1-2 wounds left. The Hemlocks position themselves in a way that the Tyrants could not fly over them, but are just in range to be shoot.
The idea would be to kill 2-3 Tyrants and cripple several others. When they try to charge, those average 2.22 wounds could very well kill them.
At the very least, the Tyrants will not be able to gang up on more than 2 Hemlocks. That would leave the 4 CHE and 2 Hemlock untouched for the next turn.
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What would stop the flyrants from killing the ranger squads and the Autarchs?
Dionysodorus wrote: A Hemlock shooting a Leviathan flyrant (normally or in Overwatch) only expects 2.22 wounds. That 4++ makes them very durable. Meanwhile a flyrant with MRCs expects 4.63 wounds on a Hemlock in CC (and another 1 from shooting). So they have a pretty easy time ganging up on Hemlocks and bringing them down. And SitW and flyrant denial make it very hard for the Hemlocks to Smite.
Crimson Hunters are a much better bet here, especially if you can keep them from getting charged without giving up any shooting (and this is probably possible). Your worry going very flyer-heavy would just be objectives and tabling, I guess, though maybe the flyrants could split up and guarantee charges on some of the flyers.
I agree overall, which is why I'd suggest using both Hemlocks and CHE. The CHE stay back and focus Tyrants until they have 1-2 wounds left. The Hemlocks position themselves in a way that the Tyrants could not fly over them, but are just in range to be shoot.
The idea would be to kill 2-3 Tyrants and cripple several others. When they try to charge, those average 2.22 wounds could very well kill them.
At the very least, the Tyrants will not be able to gang up on more than 2 Hemlocks. That would leave the 4 CHE and 2 Hemlock untouched for the next turn.
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What would stop the flyrants from killing the ranger squads and the Autarchs?
Nothing really. I mean, the Autarchs would have character protection and with the base size and movement of the Flyers, it should be easy to prevent the Tyrants from getting super close to them.
The Rangers will probably evaporate if the Tyrants decide to look at them, but the idea of the list is to kill the Tyrants and win by tabling. I suppose you could take a unit of Guardians and Webway them in on a later turn once the Tyrants are gone?
Flyrant spam does seem to be the thing that's worrying people most at the moment. The most I've faced so far in a game is 9, and that was a struggle. Actually it was a really great game, that I managed to scrape a draw from.
The best approach looks to me like it's going to be massive amounts of high-strength, low-ap, multi-damage firepower. I look at the Tau cyclic ion blaster as the perfect anti-flyrant gun: S8, ap-1, 3 shots, D3 damage. A commander can have 4 of them, hitting on a 2+, probably rerolling 1s.
The bad news is that Eldar don't have anything like that. I've just had a look through their weapons list and there's a ton of high-ap, low-damage weapons. This could actually be quite tricky. Vibrocannons maybe? It doesn't look like they are all that efficient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 14:11:00
Martel732 wrote: Reapers and flyrants both need significant nerfs. That's the bottom line here.
This.
Caveat as a nid player.
Flyrants dont need a point increase. They need to limit 1 per detachments like Tau Commanders. In fact that should be a general rule across all armies IMO. THe reason you see Flyrant spam is because all of the other Nid HQ units are mediocre and or point inefficient. If we saw Broodlords drop by about 20, or malanthropes down to 120 you would begin to see these again. The smite changes saw the end of neurothropes and increase cost of wings on Hive Tyrants Could be fair. Decrease Swarmy by 30 pts would probably result in him seeing more table time. GW will probably over compensate and drastically raise points of both units though so you dont need to worry to long.
This is also why playing the list to "TABLE" an opponent is not the best strategy. SO many times people build list for alpha or tabling to kill everything. This leads to Spam list. If ITC missions were done at all tourneys just take troops for Obj Secured and play the objectives. for secondaries Hive Tyrants Give up a $hit ton of points Take Big Game Hunter(pt for monsters), Headhunter(1 pt per character) and King Slayer (point per 4 wounds done on a monster). So if you kill 1 hive Tyrant you just banked 5 points. Lets say your game only goes 3 or 4 turns and you kill 1 tyrant per turn. Thats 15-20 points off secondaries. Add in your troops for objective secured and your fine.
The issue at Adepticon was the ruleset.
TO can also place limits on HQ choices to no more than say 25% of your army. We could also add a Hobby and Sportsmanship score. If someone is bringing a spam list you can score them poorly on sportsmanship.
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Wow, definition of that word has changed a lot over 20 years. Maybe it is a really good guy who wants to notch a win, and that's what he is forced to play according to the meta...
Anyways... There's clearly an answer here: MOAR REAPERZ!
Just kidding. I'm wondering how well dire avengers, guardians, and wave Serpents would do. Bury them in volume with units that they can kill, but don't have as much value as reapers and other gems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: please stop with the ham-handed Tau Commander nerf for every army. It is a bad way of fixing a model that is probably undercosted if it has that trait.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 16:16:49
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