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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




This conversion removes the IGOUGO system from 8th Edition 40K. To better facilitate player interaction, it’s replaced with the Orders and Action/Reaction system of Konflikt ’47 adjusted to fit with the 40K phase structure.

All unit stats, abilities and army special rules of 8th Edition 40K work within the framework of this conversion. Too good to be true? Toss one at me. A future release will compile all of them together.

The Orders system in this conversion has been tested over many, many games scaled up to 1500 points or so. It works.

Unlike my group’s earlier conversion 'Beyond the Gates of 40K', Konflikt 40K retains the D6 system and remains very close to the original rules.

Gone are the days of eating Alpha strikes with nothing to do but remove your models and curse that you didn’t get first turn. Both players are involved at all times, activating their units and choosing actions and reactions. Getting shot at? Shoot back or duck for cover. Getting charged? Blast them as they close or run for your lives.

Also included are terrain rules that have an actual effect on gameplay with photos of minis and terrain to illustrate those rules.

Grab a cup of coffee, have a read and let me know what you think.

Konflikt 40K - 24.03.18
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11YBeUrlhDRehsGc43W8jpdygPMlEeWVW

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 02:28:13


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






We'll try it out as soon as we have time. Though, i'm not sure about the bag thing. It kind of promotes multiple shooty deathstars with a lot of msu batteries for tokens. This way you can manipulate order of action.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 19:45:37


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

I must be like the only person that actually enjoys 40k around here.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Marmatag wrote:
I must be like the only person that actually enjoys 40k around here.


In Proposed Rules, certainly. It's fair to assume that the segment of the forum dedicated to tweaking and modifying the rules of 40k isn't going to be populated by people who think the game is perfect as written.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






Will play test this with a friend one of these days. I will let you know when I did.




   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






So no unit can move and shoot? Seems legit.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So no unit can move and shoot? Seems legit.

What wording loophole have you found now that doesn't allow a unit to move and shoot?

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 BaconCatBug wrote:
So no unit can move and shoot? Seems legit.


Read it again.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Oh so the Move order lets you shoot. So intuitive! Much sense! Wow! /s

This system falls into the same trap all Alternating Systems do, it halves the number of attacks a unit makes when Fighting since you don't get to do it on your opponents turn. You can't just double the A value of everything because that leads to issues with weapons that give bonus attacks. You need to have a second phase where everyone gets to attack again or you irreparably destroy what little ballance 40k has, and with Melee being so bloody useless as it is...

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/03/25 01:08:06


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oh so the Move order lets you shoot. So intuitive! Much sense! Wow! /s

This system falls into the same trap all Alternating Systems do, it halves the number of attacks a unit makes when Fighting since you don't get to do it on your opponents turn. You can't just double the A value of everything because that leads to issues with weapons that give bonus attacks. You need to have a second phase where everyone gets to attack again or you irreparably destroy what little ballance 40k has, and with Melee being so bloody useless as it is...


All three move orders allow shooting.

Attacker and defender both fight when one or the other is activated within 1" of each other. Ex: Opponent activates a unit and charges you, both fight. Opponent activates a unit within 1" of one of yours and gives it a Fight order, your unit fights as well.

The second part I can understand your confusion as I made a copy/paste error with an earlier version. Fixed now.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Mithras001 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oh so the Move order lets you shoot. So intuitive! Much sense! Wow! /s

This system falls into the same trap all Alternating Systems do, it halves the number of attacks a unit makes when Fighting since you don't get to do it on your opponents turn. You can't just double the A value of everything because that leads to issues with weapons that give bonus attacks. You need to have a second phase where everyone gets to attack again or you irreparably destroy what little ballance 40k has, and with Melee being so bloody useless as it is...


All three move orders allow shooting.

Attacker and defender both fight when one or the other is activated within 1" of each other. Ex: Opponent activates a unit and charges you, both fight. Opponent activates a unit within 1" of one of yours and gives it a Fight order, your unit fights as well.

The second part I can understand your confusion as I made a copy/paste error with an earlier version. Fixed now.
But that has the issue of x-tupling the number of attacks... If I activate my 3 Characters against a unit of Fire Warriors, you get attack 3 times to my units once. Unless you're limiting it to only twice, but then that leads to the issue where I potentially can't attack a different unit than the one that is "activated" because my turns get used up vs Chaff that the opponent activates instead.

I mean, if you're making it so a unit can potentially fight an infinite amount of times, once every time the enemy activates, I could see that working to improve melee but I feel it might backfire with something like, Genestealers. They get to attack 40 times each time they activate already, adding an extra 40 or 80 attacks is going overboard.

And that's not counting the fact that this system has the potential, however small, of allowing one player by random chance to activate all their units at once. That is a bad idea in any situation. If it instead used tokens to determine a player, then let the other player have their turn, followed by another drawing, I could see that work.

Regarding reactions: It uses their activation for the turn, does it remove a token from the bag also? Or can you end up with un-drawn tokens at the end of each turn?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/25 03:05:47


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I can agree with the x-toupling the number of attacks. But I honestly just don't think it's an issue to have them attack only 1 time on their own activation with no point change.

For starters, fights rarely if ever last 2 turns. Either the opponent backs out of the fight so other things can shoot them or the fight is so deadly that everything dies anyway.

Second, it's so weird that melee fights on both you and your opponents turn anyway. Why is melee hitting twice as often? It's already incredibly brutal with the majority of melee weapons having higher average AP than their shooting counterparts to make sure the wounds get through,

If a unit only fights in it's own activation then good. I works fine. When it gets activated next it has a choice, Fall back or fight.


I am also not a huge fan of the draw bag. Others are. I just alternate instead of using the draw bag.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/25 04:05:30



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




In the example of 3 Characters (in a single activation) vs Fire Warriors, the combat is handled as a normal multiple combat as in 8th. The Fire Warriors would not get their allotment of attacks against each target. If they were assaulted in three separate activations throughout the turn then yes, each time they were attacked they also fight back. I don't know on what plane of existence those Fire Warriors would be around to face a 2nd, let alone a 3rd assault, but it's not this one.

We do this because it's no fun to stand around and eat attacks without being able to put your own boot in, even if you do have to go second with just the survivors. But also to stop situations where a single 15 point cyberwolf assaults your big, bad melee unit who, of course, promptly eat the cyberwolf for lunch. If that fight used up their activation for the turn, their one fight for the turn, your opponent is now free to assault or shoot up your unit without fear of retaliation or reaction. Sure, genestealers and plenty of other units have crazy amount of initial attacks but nothing survives into following combats at full strength.

Activation by blind, random draw is one of the great bones of contention for the ages. I've seen players teetering on the edge of a table-flip spasm because their opponent drew a handful of activations in a row yet be all smiles when fortune favours them. What can I say, we enjoy the element of chance random draws bring.

It is no difficult thing to simply make the activations alternate back and forth. If one side has more activations than the other, allow passes until balance is restored.

Regarding reactions: yes, a Reaction removes the unit's token if they had not been activated prior to it.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Fine, replace Fire Warriors with Genestealers. Suddenly my 3 characters are taking a total of 120 attacks instead of 40 split between them.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fine, replace Fire Warriors with Genestealers. Suddenly my 3 characters are taking a total of 120 attacks instead of 40 split between them.


Man, your answer is right there in the first sentence of my reply.

Once again: If those 3 units are activated together (a character activated his two character buddies who were within 6" of him) the combat would proceed just as in 8th ie. the attacks from the Fire Warriors/Genestealers would be split among their attackers.

If those same three characters were activated individually over the course of the the turn, the Fire Warriors/Genestealers would get to attack back each time.

   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






Mithras001 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fine, replace Fire Warriors with Genestealers. Suddenly my 3 characters are taking a total of 120 attacks instead of 40 split between them.


Man, your answer is right there in the first sentence of my reply.

Once again: If those 3 units are activated together (a character activated his two character buddies who were within 6" of him) the combat would proceed just as in 8th ie. the attacks from the Fire Warriors/Genestealers would be split among their attackers.

If those same three characters were activated individually over the course of the the turn, the Fire Warriors/Genestealers would get to attack back each time.



Your rules say:
CHARACTERS AND ORDERS When activating Characters, up to 2 friendly units within 6” of them may also be activated and given orders as normal


So I can understand BaconCatBug's reaction. I would even say that RAW, he is right. Maybe that should be more clear in the rules that it is a group activation and that it has mutual fight (and I suppose all other) phases? (so like a nornal 40k turn, limited to the orders given)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/26 16:46:10


 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






I suppose the character rule does not stack (when activating multiple characters)?
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






The way i worded it when i suggested it in a previous version was


"When you activate a unit you may also activate a CHARACTER unit within 3" of the chosen unit and issue it an order as well. You may do the same with a unit that can protect any unit being activated. No more than 1 character and 1 protector can be activated in this way."


So necron warriors, a cryptek and lychguard.

Firewarriors, fireblade, and drones.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point being to keep aoe auras an effects in play while alternating activations without creating deathstars of giant unit activations.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 02:04:53



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






well it needs some clearing up. at the moment the way it is written :"can be given orders as normal" could activate entire armies in one go. As every character would activate 2 extra units Just a matter of spreading your characters every 6". and I am certain that this is not the intention of the rule.

Another one:
DENY THE WITCH TESTS
Psykers attempting to resist a psychic power can do so without it counting as an order activation for their turn.

What with models that can deny but are not psykers. Do they need to activate to deny?

I know I am picking on details. But for a ruleset to work these kind of bugs must be fixed.

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






So can we get confirmation if a character activating a character allows the activated character to activate other units? If that's the case it's just going to cause deathstars or cheap HQ tax to activate your whole army. It would basically mean "Basilisks cost 30pt more each and you can fire them all at once."

If it's limited so it can't cascade like that, it would be fine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 15:51:58


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





I like these rules, but I'm seeing a hole. There's nothing that prevents a unit from Escaping if it's within 1" of an enemy. So Marines charge Guardsmen, no reaction, fight, Guardsmen fight back, combat still goes on. Guardsmen does not activate. Second marine squad charges guardsmen, guardsmen activates to Escape, guardsmen Advances away from combat.

Not sure if this is intended, but it seems like it isn't. I'd restrict the "Escape" reaction to Fall Back distance if used within 1" of an enemy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So can we get confirmation if a character activating a character allows the activated character to activate other units? If that's the case it's just going to cause deathstars or cheap HQ tax to activate your whole army. It would basically mean "Basilisks cost 30pt more each and you can fire them all at once."

If it's limited so it can't cascade like that, it would be fine.


I think changing the ruling to read: "When activating Characters, up to 2 friendly units within 6” of them may also be activated and given orders as normal. These extra activations cannot create additional activations" would fix it. If you're going to play it, however, just play it how you see fit. These are house rules, so they're going to need a little bit of tweaking and shouldn't be taken as totally RAW when there's conflict with your opponent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 19:26:34


Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






Is paying one command point to activate twice when fired at when you have already activated not a little cheap? I mean i gladly pay 1 cp to activate my knight a second time. Step 1 fire at an enemy and then fire back when fired at? It makes very shooty units (that are priority targets) double there output.
This should be at least 3 CP imho (in comparison with the world eater stratagem that costs 3 cp to activate in combat again at the end of the fight phase)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to not make close combat armies useless the "escape" reaction should have a serious downside or be quite expensive. (1 CP to put a glass canon most likely out in the open and most likely dead one activation later is really way to cheap)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 11:50:19


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Character Activation
No, it doesn’t stack. It doesn’t stack with protector units, either. Maximum of two other activations at a time in whatever unit combination.

Deny the Witch tests
Doesn’t matter who is capable of doing it, it doesn’t use up their activation and can still be freely done if they’ve already been activated earlier in the turn.

Escaping From a Fight
If Unit A is within 1” of enemy Unit B and is charged by enemy Unit C, Unit A cannot use an Escape reaction, it can only Fall Back on its own activation.

Command Points for Reactions
We’ve found no issue with it. There’s plenty of other fun things to spend CP on so making the cost higher puts a damper on that. Also, the beauty of Warlord Games’ Action/Reaction system is that no unit is acting in its own little bubble, free from consequence. Every unit is capable of reacting to incoming fire. Sure, there’s a lot of shooting going on back and forth but fortunately there’s a nice set of Cover rules that make a difference i.e. grab some cover before deciding to start a firefight with a Knight.

The Escape Reaction
The downside is that using a reaction burns the unit’s activation for the turn or costs CP.

In the end, SputnikDX is correct: These are a set of house rules. Change what you will to suit your own group.
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran






So I played another game with these rules today and had great fun. We are making a campaign out of it. I am not sure if I ever will go back to regular 40k. The scenery makes sense, and the game becomes way more interesting and tactical.
Big thanks!!!

This came up though:
For (my opponents) necrons: When do start of turn effects like reanimation protocols activate? At the start of the units activation? Or at the start of the game turn?
We decided on the start of the units activation as it makes it a bit more of a tactical decision but not entirely sure if that is the case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 21:54:10


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Unit activation is when we have been doing it.

Glad the terrain rules are working for ya.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 minisnatcher wrote:
So I played another game with these rules today and had great fun. We are making a campaign out of it. I am not sure if I ever will go back to regular 40k. The scenery makes sense, and the game becomes way more interesting and tactical.
Big thanks!!!

This came up though:
For (my opponents) necrons: When do start of turn effects like reanimation protocols activate? At the start of the units activation? Or at the start of the game turn?
We decided on the start of the units activation as it makes it a bit more of a tactical decision but not entirely sure if that is the case.


I'm glad the rules are bringing some fun to your table. The terrain rules, provided by Lance845, go a long way to making 8th 40K a better game. We do top of turn stuff on a unit's activation as normal.

Here's a rule not included in the conversion that we've been using to bring a little more sense to 8th edition.

Only models visible to the shooting unit can be removed as a casualty. No more of the "see one model, smoke them all" nonsense. So, if more than half of a unit's models are behind Dense terrain (stuff that completely blocks line of sight), the entire unit receives the cover bonus but only those the shooters have actual LOS to can be removed. We've found this encourages an element of maneuver to the game for better shooting angles. Gunline players accustomed to setting up a tent for the duration will not enjoy this. Also, it goes without saying (but I’ll say it anyway since this is Dakka) that indirect fire weapons ignore this rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 15:33:37


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






How to translate effects that last until your next X phase? For example a Psychic Power that lasts until your next psychic phase.

Make it last until you're next ordered?
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Yup. If x unit casts a buff that lasts until their next psychic phase then it lasts until x units next activation.

Which means you have a choice to make. Wait until the end of your turn to maintain the buff as long as possible but leave the unit potentially in a bad spot/subject to the enemies actions or activate early to reposition and adjust but loose the buff from last turn.

These rules have a drastic effect on tactical choices related to who you activate and when and the counter play your opponent will bring to the table as a result.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

This makes sense since Warlord Games rules team for Bolt Action were too GW vets, and Bolt Action itself was balanced around the same idea of small arms shooting 24. I say Bolt Action because Konflict was based off the Bolt Action v1 rules, and with the d6 blast markers 40K uses its actually very similar to Bolt Action / Conflict.

As a big Bolt Action player I have a few thoughts, this is coming from my practical experience using the order system in Bolt Action.

1) I would consolidate down. Bolt Actoin's charge rules are perfectly fine for getting into close combat. This would let you clean up your "order dice" and give players a bit more consistency that people wish W40K had.
Run Order : unit can move 2x its movement. Advancing through terrain can only move up to its movement. Unit can charge by declaring a Run Order and moving into combat with opponent.
This would give players a way to move infantry up the battlefield faster, and simplify charges by making them predictable and clean.

2) I don't like that you can use a "command point" to give a reaction order. One of the key balancing factors in Bolt Action concerning reactions is that taking one uses up your order for the rest of your turn. like that down order to save some casualties from from HE rounds. 1 command point is way to low. Once a unit has an order assigned to it they need to be iced out.

3) Get rid of the Escape Reaction. Its too potent. Full ballistic skill Overwatch as a reaction is good enough for government work. Assaults need to be workable for a game like 40K.

3) I don't like the Firefight or Dash to Cover reactions either. I can see that they add some flavor but 'Down' should be the only reaction a unit can make to being shot at. Making the decision if you want to go down for the -1 to hit, or staying up and taking your lumps in exchange for keeping your units order dice in the pool is part of the tactical considerations in BA and K47. Allowing a simultaneous shootout or a free movement gives them the best of both worlds, and takes away many of the negatives of being left in the open.
Also note, that if you want to simulate a "fire fight" that is what the AMBUSH order is for. You can save your units shooting for later, or flip it to down if necessary. There are limits to Ambush (unless playing Finns lol) that are quickly apparent to anyone who has played Bolt Action or K47.

4) Add a 'Disengaging Strike' reaction to fall back. This lets Melee units starting the turn engaged with the enemy pull an Order Dice out and chop up the enemy one last time before they leave. Think of it as the melee version of overwatch.
Its not as bad as it sounds. a) if your unit charged and the opponent didn't react at all, they can freely fallback with their own order since the attacker won't have a reaction. b) this will only apply in instances where a turn begins with a unit engaged in close combat and gives melee players something to do while the enemy falls away from them. one of the big hurdles faced by melee armies in 40K is they struggle to "tie up" the enemy since an engaged unit can simply fall back and the rest of the army is free to hammer them from range. A Disengaging Strike reaction makes falling back against a unit that hasn't activated yet a dangerous proposition and makes melee a more dangerous place to be. Which it should.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/01 18:02:08


Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




@akaean

Thanks for your lengthy thoughts and taking the time to write them out.

I read it all and disagree with all. It seems you mainly object to the features from Konflikt ’47, namely the Reactions, it adds to the basic Bolt Action game.

What my group and I have hashed out works great for us. You are, of course, free to take what is presented and change it to whatever suits you and your group. Have fun out there.
   
 
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