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So I was looking at Codex Demons and Codex Thousand Sons and I notice the Demon Princes are different.

A demon prince of tzeentch in the demon codex can cast 1 spell per turn while the Demon Prince of Tzeentch in the TS codex can cast 2 spells per turn. I checked the FAQ and I saw nothing about this.

Is this right? Why is it this way?

It's right. GW Clearly did it on purpose.

It's awful.

Why is it awful? Giving TSons princes a benefit for being TSons is bad?

Is there a lore reason for this?

And it seems weird if you bring a TS/Demons list and the two identical demon princes of tzeentch are different. They serve the same god, but one is a better caster for some reason.

Yeah because one came from specifically from the Thousand Sons legion - i.e. a legion of sorcerers.

He also has one better invul save and can select spells from one extra lore. For no points cost difference. And for no apparent reason.

Then if you dig in a little deeper you will see that also the Thousand Sons Rubrics have different entry than the CSM Rubrics as well. TS ones are Troops, CSM ones are Elites. TS ones can get a soulreaper cannon at 10 models, CSM can get a soulreaper cannon at 5 models.

General consensus seems to be that the TS codex was half assed and written by authors without actual eyes. The FAQs were written probably by a well informed team of chopsticks. They knew all about the issues because the internets really went crazy pointing the inconsistencies, but being the inanimate objects they are and with no hands available, they could not include the changes in the FAQ.

Different codexes.

Daemon Princes of Tzeentch is the only way for Thousand Sons to get powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch (without bringing Magnus), while Daemon-Daemon Princes already have plenty of ways to get it, and already kinda drown in powers.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
He also has one better invul save and can select spells from one extra lore. For no points cost difference. And for no apparent reason.

Then if you dig in a little deeper you will see that also the Thousand Sons Rubrics have different entry than the CSM Rubrics as well. TS ones are Troops, CSM ones are Elites. TS ones can get a soulreaper cannon at 10 models, CSM can get a soulreaper cannon at 5 models.

General consensus seems to be that the TS codex was half assed and written by authors without actual eyes. The FAQs were written probably by a well informed team of chopsticks. They knew all about the issues because the internets really went crazy pointing the inconsistencies, but being the inanimate objects they are and with no hands available, they could not include the changes in the FAQ.

Per usual with your rant - different things mean different things. The TSons Prince is a different unit from the Demons Prince, much the same as a CSM Prince is a different prince from the Death Guard Prince. Also they have the same invuln. save - ephemeral form gives the Demons prince a 4+ as well (actually improvable to a 2+).

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Why is it awful? Giving TSons princes a benefit for being TSons is bad?

One are Princes, sons of Magnus.

The other are Princes, Daemons of the literal god of magic and trickery.

Magnus is Tzeentchs Primarch. There's little justification for him, somehow, just arbitrarily having stronger psychic princes.

Edit: Their benefit should be their chapter tactic, which increases their casting range. It shouldn't, however, be an arbitrary increase in their amount of spells.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Why is it awful? Giving TSons princes a benefit for being TSons is bad?

One are Princes, sons of Magnus.

The other are Princes, Daemons of the literal god of magic and trickery.

Magnus is Tzeentchs Primarch. There's little justification for him, somehow, just arbitrarily having stronger psychic princes.

Edit: Their benefit should be their chapter tactic, which increases their casting range. It shouldn't, however, be an arbitrary increase in their amount of spells.

From a fluff perspective those princes come from a huge range of spaces - some were likely mortal sorcerers at some point who rose to demonhood (just as one example). Ultimately it is something that sets apart TSons princes - who mechanically provide the only access to demon powers in the TSons book. This feels a lot like 'I'm upset you got something I didn't.

It's... exactly that? The purpose of the post was an individual asking if this, functionally identical unit, was missing something or an FAQ due to them having a significant difference they could not understand.

Similar to Death Guard Princes not having wings listed on their points sheet, and then corrected by a FAQ.

Their confusion is justified by the fact that there is no reason why a TSons Prince has a stronger psychic phase, outside of just using "because lol".

Which, it's fine that that's the reason, but the Daemon player has every right to be confused from both a gameplay and lore perspective.

Honestly, the CSM dex botched the reason to take marks; theres no benefit really to any specific mark other than keywords and fluff.

Codex DG and T-Sons fixed this; DG princes have DR and T-sons have +1 invun and 1 more spell.

My complaint here, however, is that Codex Demons doesn't quite go as far as the DG or Tsons dex's in making the DP's awesome. Tsons DP's are way better than Codex Demons or CSM, and DG DP's are arguably better than CSM or Demons (depends on the power you want, but DG princes allow DG infantry AND Nurgle demons to reroll).

Really its all very confusing... also supposedly all the DP's are supposed to have the Warp Bolter option, which was convieniently left out of everything but the CSM dex, sparking debate as to whether or not you can buy it in the otehr dex's, and if its Index cost (9) or Codex: CSM cost (3).

Theres just a lot of inconsistency, which is pretty aggravating. I don't know if GW is doing this on purpose to "force" people to have multiple codices for the good options, or if its the writers not talking to one another or even reading the other codex's.

TLDR; run Codex 1k Sons princes, they are the bees knees compared to CSM and Demon options.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's... exactly that? The purpose of the post was an individual asking if this, functionally identical unit, was missing something or an FAQ due to them having a significant difference they could not understand.

Similar to Death Guard Princes not having wings listed on their points sheet, and then corrected by a FAQ.

Their confusion is justified by the fact that there is no reason why a TSons Prince has a stronger psychic phase, outside of just using "because lol".

Which, it's fine that that's the reason, but the Daemon player has every right to be confused from both a gameplay and lore perspective.

Edit: And your fluff perspective isn't great, either. TSons princes also would of come from all over at this point, especially considering a large number of them died on their home planet. They were mutated due to gifts from... Tzeentch and have likely been recruited from all over the galaxy at this point. Meanwhile, Tzeentch is literally the god of Sorcery. His princes should be equal if not extremely outclass a Tsons Prince. It's fine that GW made them different, but there's little actual justification for it beyond making the armies different. Which, again, is fine.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's... exactly that? The purpose of the post was an individual asking if this, functionally identical unit, was missing something or an FAQ due to them having a significant difference they could not understand.

Similar to Death Guard Princes not having wings listed on their points sheet, and then corrected by a FAQ.

Their confusion is justified by the fact that there is no reason why a TSons Prince has a stronger psychic phase, outside of just using "because lol".

Which, it's fine that that's the reason, but the Daemon player has every right to be confused from both a gameplay and lore perspective.

Edit: And your fluff perspective isn't great, either. TSons princes also would of come from all over at this point, especially considering a large number of them died on their home planet. They were mutated due to gifts from... Tzeentch and have likely been recruited from all over the galaxy at this point. Meanwhile, Tzeentch is literally the god of Sorcery. His princes should be equal if not extremely outclass a Tsons Prince. It's fine that GW made them different, but there's little actual justification for it beyond making the armies different. Which, again, is fine.

So its fine but also awful?

There is a difference. The CD has Daemon Prince of Chaos, thick then you give an allegiance to, gaining attributes.

The TS has Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, just like the Death Guard codex has Daemon Prince of Nurgle.

They're different data sheets.

Considering the CD princes are still better than most of the non God Legion ones (IW Prince gets a great relic, but a useless attribute), the TS and DG Princes still made out ahead.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's... exactly that? The purpose of the post was an individual asking if this, functionally identical unit, was missing something or an FAQ due to them having a significant difference they could not understand.

Similar to Death Guard Princes not having wings listed on their points sheet, and then corrected by a FAQ.

Their confusion is justified by the fact that there is no reason why a TSons Prince has a stronger psychic phase, outside of just using "because lol".

Which, it's fine that that's the reason, but the Daemon player has every right to be confused from both a gameplay and lore perspective.

Edit: And your fluff perspective isn't great, either. TSons princes also would of come from all over at this point, especially considering a large number of them died on their home planet. They were mutated due to gifts from... Tzeentch and have likely been recruited from all over the galaxy at this point. Meanwhile, Tzeentch is literally the god of Sorcery. His princes should be equal if not extremely outclass a Tsons Prince. It's fine that GW made them different, but there's little actual justification for it beyond making the armies different. Which, again, is fine.

So its fine but also awful?

I can disagree with the purpose of something and still understand why it's done, yeah.

GW Is free to make whatever decision they'd like with an army, and my opinion on how they do it does not restrict them in any way.

I think it's awful that the Tzeentch Princes are worse. That's fine. My opinion doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Is this somehow a foreign concept to you?

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I can disagree with the purpose of something and still understand why it's done, yeah.

GW Is free to make whatever decision they'd like with an army, and my opinion on how they do it does not restrict them in any way.

I think it's awful that the Tzeentch Princes are worse. That's fine. My opinion doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Is this somehow a foreign concept to you?

No because it still feels awful back pedal'y to me. It was awful until it was pointed out that sometimes things are done to give different armies distinct flavors and strengths and then it was fine.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I can disagree with the purpose of something and still understand why it's done, yeah.

GW Is free to make whatever decision they'd like with an army, and my opinion on how they do it does not restrict them in any way.

I think it's awful that the Tzeentch Princes are worse. That's fine. My opinion doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Is this somehow a foreign concept to you?

No because it still feels awful back pedal'y to me. It was awful until it was pointed out that sometimes things are done to give different armies distinct flavors and strengths and then it was fine.

Incorrect. I'm not back pedaling. I'm just accepting it. I still think it's awful. That doesn't change. Something can be bad and still be okay. It isn't hard to recognize that my individual opinion on how someone or a company does something does not necessarily mean that my opinion should hold any weight. It's simply an opinion.

Death is awful. It's okay that it happens.

I think your opinion that somehow TSons Princes should be stronger than Tzeentch Princes is an incorrect stance. I disagree with it. I'm not going to force you to change your mind; you're entirely allowed to, as an adult or an individual entity, to have whatever opinion you'd like. I just disagree. It doesn't change anything.

Another problem with it is that it means the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch pushes the Exalted Sorcerer into irrelevancy.

You can fix this issue by just pledging allegiance to a superior god, Slaanesh!

I think some of the differences, I'm assuming, is access to relics? A DP of Slaanesh in CSM doesn't get access to the Soulstealer correct?

Pretty sure you could give a DP of Tzeentch from the Daemons codex the impossible robe as well, which you can't do with Thousand Sons?

It feels like the DPs for Daemons for Tzeentch are maybe meant to support, with the 2cp strat 6" bubble. DP seems like a prime candidate for that or a LOC I suppose but you get the idea. A lot of the stuff in the TS Codex seemed to focus on being a beat stick. I could be wrong though.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Another problem with it is that it means the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch pushes the Exalted Sorcerer into irrelevancy.

Yeah, no kidding.

With my Eldar I want Autarchs, Farseers and Spiritseers.
With my Salamanders I want Captains, Lieutenants and on occasion Librarians.
With my World Eater I want Daemon Princes and Exalted Champions.
With my Imperial Guard I want Tank Commanders, Company Commanders and Primaris Psykers.
If I start Necrons I'd want Overlords, Crypteks and Lords.

With my Thousand Sons I want Daemon Princes...and then I wonder what an Exalted brings to the table that a Daemon Prince doesn't.

When you want different HQ's because they offer different things, that's a good sign.
When you look at your HQ's and quickly realize that they all do the same thing, except one does it better than the rest, that's a bad sign.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Another problem with it is that it means the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch pushes the Exalted Sorcerer into irrelevancy.

Yeah, no kidding.
........
........
With my Thousand Sons I want Daemon Princes...and then I wonder what an Exalted brings to the table that a Daemon Prince doesn't.

yeah, Daemon Prince pays only 40pts more to get +3W, +2T, +1S and tons more attacks while have same ability in psychic

lol, that is the reason why every Thounsand Sons Exalted Soccerors want to asscend into a Daemon Prince, blahahahaha

I know its a bit deep in the convo now, but the arguement that rubrics are elite in the CSM codex is just stupid considering WE, EC and DG all ALSO get their elites as troops when fielded in the cult legion.