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Greetings chaps, I've come here today with a bit of a dilemma. You see I read and enjoy homebrews of Chaos aligned factions, however, there seems to a reoccurring issue; Where do they get gene-seed? Personally I don't care about those minute details, I'm there for story and, hopefully, something on the gray spectrum. Despite that you'll have people comment about gene-seed, say their numbers can't be above how many hundred, yadda yadda yadda. To me, it feels like there's this inert desire to thwart the presumed bad guys be it lore or homebrew. However, I could be wrong and said commenter could just be asking general questions. Either or I'm beginning to see a pattern of stagnation. People will question equipment, gene-seed, consistently grill and grill. And again I'm not ruling out the fact some might be genuinely curious it's becoming rather bothersome to scroll through.
So I've sat on this for a few days debating with myself whether or not gene-seed and equipment are in such scarce supplies. At first glance it would seem so, however, we're comparing them to the structured Imperium on a constant basis. They could easily begin building legions, dedicating forge temples to Astartes equipment, ect ect... But what about the Traitors?
You see they're not restrained by Imperium mandates. Where a Chapter may only be allowed one-thousand active Marines, more in special cases, Traitors don't have that restriction. And this doesn't only apply to the Traitor Marines but other Traitor Factions, as well. So lets say a Mechanicus Adapt has a fantastic idea but it includes a pinch of innovation; it'll remain an idea for eternity. Now lets take a Dark Mechanicus Adept has the same idea; it'll happen. There might be some bumps around the road, such as Warp non-sense but I doubt it'll be explicitly terrible. The Dark Adapt removes a power cell from a las-rifle, inspects its construction, discovers a pinch of innovation can get it a better charge and thus, new power cells.
Presented there is a decent example of the differences between Imperium dogma compared to Traitor ingenuity; they have a lot more wiggle room.
Before I get the Warp spiel about it immediately possessing innovation I feel compelled to address something; it's a reflection of our thoughts and emotions. The Adapt building the new cell doesn't do so with inherent malicious intent, more-so curiosity. He/She'll innovate and create, furthering himself from his religious dogma. The Warp entities that may or may not appear is up for interpretation. I think, and this could be a stretch, the machine spirits in question wouldn't be entirely opposed to this. We often read about them being murderous pricks, so a larger tank barrel to murder isn't necessarily a bad thing. And the Daemons, mmm... That's another matter. Again, I don't believe they'll be these shark toothed monsters ripping out his/her eyes. Where he/she's acting upon innovation I'm leaning towards a Tzeetchian daemon or variant, something that'll inspire the adapt. His/her ambition would have a very minute flicker in the warp- small but one none the less.
I've related more to Mechanicum in terms of differences and Warp effect but it was just easier. Still, those examples there are to illustrate my case for why Traitor Marines could be more numerous and less constricted.
An example in an Ultramarines Novel depicts a creation known as the Daemonculaba. This rather morbid fusion of warp powers and material science allowed the Iron Warriors to create new Marines, it's also a demonstration of Traitor Ingenuity. What this represents is different avenues of Astarte's creation beyond the norm. Granted, most creations may not be perfect replica's of Loyal Astarte's but Astarte's none the less.
So, with that in mind lets explore a few possibilities I've come up with myself.
Pseudo-Rubric Marines
Spoiler:
The first is perhaps a poor, grimmer replica of Rubric Marines. The idea here is a mass production of gene-seed, cloning genetic material from previous Astarte's to reverse engineer their biology. We'd have an ambitious Biologus (Spelling?) replicating the implantations while manufacturing grown gene-seed. These wouldn't be nearly perfect but suitable replica's to serve a purpose. What must be stated is we don't know exactly if the Emperor discovered the knowledge to create Astarte's from the Warp Gods or not, so lets throw in some kinks. I'm personally of the opinion no man/woman/xeno's should surpass the Emperor's creations. (Still in deep denial of Primaris Space Marines and refuse to accept them)
Gene-seed grown on mass would eventually wither away over time, never producing resilient progenoid glands. Lets snow ball it and say they live a few hundred years give'er take before organ failures begin to kick in. We'd have apothocaries or other specialists begin implanting artificial lungs, amputating clubbed hands, diligently trying to rectify these issues. All the while, said Astarte's are enduring agony and despair, eventually becoming entombed in their suits.
Lets say with all these nasty surgeries, organ failures and mutations the inevitable end is still in sight; perhaps not. This is where we include a dash of Warp magic the Traitors so very much relish and depend on. The Astarte's mute agony and despair has, like all thoughts and emotions, had a flicker in the warp. We'll add to the equation and bring the Power Armors machine spirit into this. Said machine spirit has carried this being now entombed in it, felt his every emotion and knows its eventual end is close at hand. However, this doesn't need to be the case. What if there was a symbiosis similar to what Lorgar talked about, between humans and daemons? What if the Power Armor eventually became the Astarte's, maybe even being convinced it was the Astarte's. Inside would be a withered husk of a man yet it'd act and function as if alive and well.
Maybe a stretch in some ways but, to me, perfectly feasible.
Another path towards gene-seed is more singular, through devotion.
Hatchery of Nurgle
Spoiler:
Nurgle is an odd god at the best of times. He feels compelled to share his gifts with the universe and see us thrive in delusional bliss. Unlike that sadist Khorne or that deviant Slaanesh, he genuinely cares and loves his followers, and in saying that, there's always those who'd wish harm upon his followers. He'd eagerly send his daemons but that's a whole other dilemma. The veil between the materium and immaterium needs to be thinned and tampered with which isn't always the case. So how do you defend your most pious of followers, those masses who've taken your gifts with glee and tell stories to their children about Grand Father's love? Welp, we visit his chosen legion The Death Guard.
We can all agree that Astarte's are recognized as some of the galaxies hardest hitting guys around. I can't think of anything man made (I think that's an apt phrase?) that tops them.(Still denying Primaris!) We get a few Plague Marines, a sprinkle of warp magic and create a sort of hatchery. Where Nurgle promotes life in all forms, even the more disgusting ones, it plays to his strength. Perhaps a little botanical, even insect-like but we're exploring here.
Anyway, the zealous followers of Nurgle might give up their young to the Hatchery. They trust in their chosen deity, love him and revere him as a savior. These families giving up their children believe they'll be the chosen sons of Nurgle. Say a Plague Marine inspects the young, ensures the family they originate from are truly devote and selects via physical capability and faith. These children will be entered into a sort of cocoon where something similar to a butterfly will emerge... A very ugly, smelly but equally terrifying butterfly with no wings. The child will be remade into a similar being as the chosen Plague Marines used to provide the genetic material for this hatchery. Say those Marines had a defining set of antlers, specific disease, they'd inherit it and possibly other features.
Again, these aren't actual Marines. No man can replicate the Emperor's work and I doubt the gods can either. So the flaws in these Marines wouldn't physical as it'd be more mental. They weren't conditioned from the start, only created through a sort of metamorphosis. These Plague Marines would undoubtedly be more human, more prone to acts of compassion, hesitant to immediately slay an innocent, maybe even lack the killer instinct Loyal Astarte's have driven into their psyche. I do think these grown Marines would eventually become jaded to this but only veterans would, and even then, some might never achieve that killer instinct... Oh and don't forget they're huge and fat and waddle across the battle field.
With everything said and done I'm not intentionally trying to flaunt my creative, I'm only trying to inspire creativity. Strike at me if you will but god damn I'm tired of people chewing out Chaos homebrews. The Imperium is fractured broken bureaucratical hell hole, so god knows what's happening out there. Of the millions, if not billions of distress calls being sent out I'll wager 1% is being addressed and that's being generous. So Chaos lovers abuse that, use it, explore the impossible Warp non-sense and lavish in the limitless ingenuity we're so graciously blessed with.
I implore anyone to share and discuss other possibilities of creating Traitor Marines, whether it be through material means, immaterial means or a mixture of both!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 20:26:46
Through Fabius, Chaos is creating a lot of chaos marines through various methods:
1) Cloning. The clones are corrupt, but that's a bonus for them
2) Traditional gene-seed harvesting - it's corrupt, but again not a flaw for them
3) Incubators. He genes up a captured woman, implants a gene-clone, and lets it grow until it explodes out of the host. Not pretty but seems to be one of the main methods for getting a good success rate.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
production of chaos space marines is hampered by the whole warping nature of chaos, geneseed isn't always umm... recoverable so there is that limiting factor.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
See that's the issue right there, you're not looking outside the box. What I'm trying to illustrate is there's more ways than one to create Traitor Marines even if they're not perfect.
I'm not sure if I fully understand your post. Do you want to collect ideas about how new Traitor Marines are produced or do you want to collect existing fluff about it?
Apparently the Death Guard is larger in 40K than it was during the Horus Heresy despite fighting in Black Crusades and all. So it must have found a way to grow new marines. Plague Surgeons are described to steal geneseeds from fallen marines. Then there are Renegade Marines of course. Fabius Bile and the dark mechanicum as possible creators of new Chaos Marines have been mentioned already.
Besides that I think the fluff is quite vague about the fact if Chaos marines are actually dieing or if all of them get respawned in the Warp. We know it for sure about Kharn, but also in other cases immortality seems a strong motive to join Chaos and especially Nurgle.
I guess if Traitor Marines didn't respawn in the Warp there would hardly any of them left 10000 years after the heresy, especially Rubric Marines. But as we are told since 3rd edition Traitor legion Marines are the actual Marines from Heresy times (even though many of them haven't actually lived for 10K years because of warptime magic).
pm713 wrote: What's this about the death guard being bigger?
from the death guard codex.
"Even in the days before the Horus Heresy, mortarion belived in perpetual agresssive recruitment. His attritional tactics combined with the extreme enviroment in which the death guard fought, lead the heavy casualites requiring constantt replacement. The Death Guard have not relented in this doctrine since the founding of the plague planet and entire wars have been fought to seize new gene seed stocks or harvest suitable new recruits. However whereas before death guard fell in battle as quickly as Mortarian could replace them, since thier damnnation they have become unnaturally hard to kill. Thus well the death guard have certainly endured campaigns in which loses where horrifc, their numbers have increased, like a virus replicating in it's host"
so yeah. the death guard is actually m ore numerous then it was pre-heresy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 21:44:50
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Creating proper space marines who fulfill all the Imperial criteria is probably impossible for any of the remaining legions and is in any case not something they're interested in. They might have worse logitistical support but the much greater range of acceptable outcomes and technologies does mean that they should be able to compete in raw numbers.
Clones, alchemical and sorcerous enhancements, cybernetics, outright androids and robots, alien means of creating supersoldiers, etc etc. It doesn't have to be recognisable as a true marine, only be able to perform on a similar level.
Afaik many of them take promising cultists or obtain potential marines via capture/trial/whatnot and use stolen gene seed to create new marines. Other methods exist with varying degrees of success.
As for the tech innovation/development aspect, a key part missed is that the warpsmiths are more or less insane. They are don't process reality in the same way an Imperium mechanic would, which is precisely what allows them to work with warp energies in the first place. Also consider that there is far more infighting and far less sharing of information/designs than the Imperium (which is already a low standard). They've still devised a good deal of innovation along the daemon-tech angle; things like bloat drones, dinobots, etc are post-heresy developments.
I love the pseudo rubric marine stuff there. I could get on board with that. Some of the best home few fluff I've read on here. The nurgle stuff is good too don't get me wrong but the rubric one has got me interested in stealing it. Keep the ideas coming, I like them.
Other people seem to missing the point that you are thinking of believable ways round the restrictions chaos marines seem to face, as they would in order to survive and expand. Good work.
New CSMs come from two primary sources: standard recruitment and Space Marines that go Renegade.
The former is described quite often in the lore and explains why apothecaries highly valued in the Eye and Maelstrom. As an example, Huron is actively searching for Apothecaries to make new CSMs (Gildar Rift). It seems work within certain limits in the Eye, but gene-seed corruption is still a thing. That's why you have the Alpha Legion stealing an entire Chapter's gene-seed for Abaddon (The Long Game at Carcharias). There's also the Daemonculaba.
New CSMs also come from SMs turning to Chaos, such as with the Abyssal Crusade. Squads, companies, Chapters... It adds up.
Chaos Marines have various ways of replenishing their numbers. Some take candidates from the mortal crew of their warships and implant seed extracted from lost brothers. Some set out to plunder the gene-seed stocks of Imperial chapters, taking candidates from slaves and occupied worlds. Others still try and fuse warp science with the biological implantation procedure to spawn new additions (see the daemonculaba).
Many of the original traitorous legionnaires look down on all the above as being 'thin-blooded', and weaker than their original counterparts. Certainly, such methods would appear to create Marines with little discipline, skill, or training compared to the original elite Astartes. I for one would be very happy to see a solid profile differentiation made in the rulebooks between the 'Veterans of the Long War' and the twisted offspring that have resulted since.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 16:24:46
