Helbrute vs Maulerfiend

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**mrstimpson**

In a vacuum, what do you guys think about these two units verses each other with these loadouts?

Helbrute (156)
Helbrute Fist x2
Heavy Flamer x2

Maulerfiend (152)
Lasher tendrils

I feel like they both fill similar rolls and have comprable damage output, but I'm not sure what one would pull ahead in the efficiency department. I have three of each in the cabinet waiting to be played so I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on these two units. If you were to take 2-3 of them, what ones would you take and why?

**techsoldaten**

The most important difference between the two is the battlefield role. A Helbrute is an elite, a Maulerfiend is a Heavy Support choice. The later competes with Obliterators, Havocs, Predators, etc in a detachment, and that's not always a good thing.

All other things being equal, I would take a Maulerfiend for the 5+ Daemon save, the regeneration, and the extra close combat attacks. I like Heavy Flamers but they don't do enough to justify their presence.

Practically, I have little use for a Maulerfiend, it doesn't fit in my lists. I use Lascannon + Scourge Helbrutes.

**mrstimpson**

The battlefield role aspect is huge, I agree. I normally run a few autocannon havoc squads with helbrutes, so it's hard for me to justify squeezing in maulerfiends, but they are such lovely models.

**Nym**

A maulerfiend is at least 50% more durable than the Helbrute and moves faster. It also benefits from a very cheap stratagem to increase its damage output.

A Helbrute doesn't degrade and deals more damage against most ennemies, but using the Heavy Flamers often ruins its charge possibilities.

I think the CC Helbrute in this edition need to be cheap (no HF) and used in support of vastly more threatening units, or he's just worthless.

**mrstimpson**

I guess one thing that bears mentioning is that Helbrutes have a much smaller physical footprint. Depending on the situation, that can either be a boon or bane.

I can understand the idea behind keeping them cheep, but looking through the codex I find a pretty large lack of units that can carry the weapon. And in the case of Iron Warriors, they ignore cover. Is the heavy flamer worth bringing along with the IW trait considered? I may just be overvaluing the weapon in my own head.

**Slayer-Fan123**

If you want to do melee, you need speed above all else. The Maulerfiend can provide that whilst the Helbrute can't.

**mrstimpson**

From the sounds of it, Helbrute Fist and their Heavy Flamers need a drastic decrease in price to be even remotely considered over a Maulerfiend by most people's standards.

They're too slow to get into combat reliably, too expensive/not as durable in comparison to other similar units that serve the same purpose, but they do have the boon of not sharing the same role as some of our best units.

I feel like if there's anything it has over the Maulerfiend, it's the Heavy Flamers and being able to utilize the shooting phase with them. But, it's a pretty damn expensive weapon platform for just Heavy Flamers. Especially when you consider the points you pay for the fists.

For me, everything goes back to a price reduction on the fists being somewhat of a necessity before they can be considered over other options.

**EverlastingNewb**

I play with 3 Lasherfiends in most of my games & have tried Fister-brutes a couple of times.

The huge upside of the Fister-Brute is, that it gets the Legion traits. Advance & charge for Renegade is really good. With this trait, they're - on average - faster than Mauler's.

Maulerfiends on the other hand, as mentioned already, are more durable. They're Daemons so they do get an Invuln, they regen & they have more attacks - all of which deal at least 2 dmg.

If you'd remove the 'vacuum', i think the maulers do have the edge due to the 'daemon' keyword. The Synergies are just really good with Daemon detachments. My Favourit is the Slaanesh Mauler that advances & charges while in range of a Herald.

**vaklor4**

..Heavy flamers? It's just a standard flamer, not heavy. BIG difference.

Also, Helbrutes with 2 fists are far superior to Maulerfiends. Ditch the flamers, they aren't worth it. Just have 2 fists for a clean 121.

Maulerfiends on the other hand take up a larger footprint on the battlefield, their stats degrade over time, and they are more anti-elite/infantry, where the helbrute is a tank killer.

So, you can certainly play both in an army, they serve different roles in my opinion. But in general, Helbrutes for the win.

**ZergSmasher**

vaklor4 wrote:
..Heavy flamers? It's just a standard flamer, not heavy. BIG difference.

Also, Helbrutes with 2 fists are far superior to Maulerfiends. Ditch the flamers, they aren't worth it. Just have 2 fists for a clean 121.

Maulerfiends on the other hand take up a larger footprint on the battlefield, their stats degrade over time, and they are more anti-elite/infantry, where the helbrute is a tank killer.

So, you can certainly play both in an army, they serve different roles in my opinion. But in general, Helbrutes for the win.

First up, Helbrutes can indeed take Heavy Flamers, not standard ones. Also, why go 2 fists on a 'brute? I'd say go fist/scourge for maximum attacks. Granted, you pay more for that, but more attacks...

Personally, I'd say go with both in some lists. The synergy with Slaanesh Daemons means a Slaanesh Maulerfiend goes well with Renegade Helbrutes. They can both advance and charge. Maximum threat saturation that way. Bonus points for having a third detachment consisting of Alpha Legion Helbrutes with shooty weapons, plus a cheap Lord to give them reroll-1's to hit. Dangit, now I want to run a full mech list!

**vaklor4**

ZergSmasher wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
..Heavy flamers? It's just a standard flamer, not heavy. BIG difference.

Also, Helbrutes with 2 fists are far superior to Maulerfiends. Ditch the flamers, they aren't worth it. Just have 2 fists for a clean 121.

Maulerfiends on the other hand take up a larger footprint on the battlefield, their stats degrade over time, and they are more anti-elite/infantry, where the helbrute is a tank killer.

So, you can certainly play both in an army, they serve different roles in my opinion. But in general, Helbrutes for the win.

First up, Helbrutes can indeed take Heavy Flamers, not standard ones. Also, why go 2 fists on a 'brute? I'd say go fist/scourge for maximum attacks. Granted, you pay more for that, but more attacks...

Personally, I'd say go with both in some lists. The synergy with Slaanesh Daemons means a Slaanesh Maulerfiend goes well with Renegade Helbrutes. They can both advance and charge. Maximum threat saturation that way. Bonus points for having a third detachment consisting of Alpha Legion Helbrutes with shooty weapons, plus a cheap Lord to give them reroll-1's to hit. Dangit, now I want to run a full mech list!

Either way, I still wouldn't take the heavy flamers. IF you're looking for some ranged in those fists, just take the combis. Flamers in any form aside from the super heavy variety like Bale are just over costed for their performance. Additionally, you're charging the same turn you get in range with a flamer anyways, where as Combis are firing off the entire way up the board, and don't take that -1 penalty from heavy.

**NurglesR0T**

Helbrute will be more accurate but Maulerfiend is much more resilient. 5++ and wound regen each turn helps them live past a turn of a shooting.

Both can be a good distraction though

**Nightlord1987**

Helbrute gets a Legion Trait, if its one worth taking, Helbrute gains a spot just off of that alone. In all other instances, I rather take a daemon engine and synergise with Heralds, Psychic powers, and CD Daemon Princes.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Helbrute gets a Legion Trait, if its one worth taking, Helbrute gains a spot just off of that alone. In all other instances, I rather take a daemon engine and synergise with Heralds, Psychic powers, and CD Daemon Princes.

So the question is which trait is worth taking to really make it worth it over the Maulerfiend?

**vaklor4**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
Helbrute gets a Legion Trait, if its one worth taking, Helbrute gains a spot just off of that alone. In all other instances, I rather take a daemon engine and synergise with Heralds, Psychic powers, and CD Daemon Princes.

So the question is which trait is worth taking to really make it worth it over the Maulerfiend?

World Eater's is pretty ok, Alpha Legion is obviously the best choice, giving it -1 to hit from the artillery that can kill it in one volley.

Another very important thing to note is that it doesn't have a wound chart. The helbrute stays mobile and scary for all 8 wounds, where as by the last 3 the Maulerfiend is far from useful.

**Red Corsair**

Take both.

The hellbrute is best with two guns, in cover if possible. He wonn't degrade and if they shoot him and don't finish him, he has a 16% chance at a free shooting phase.

The Mauler fiend is more durable by far and much faster, he also has no gun meaning you can advance him turn one without any regret.

Further, they both have a very good strategem that is cheap. 1CP. Taking multiples of one or the other limits the use, but having both means again they won't compete.

In my Emperors children I run two helbrutes with double blastmasters, one has a missile L the other a fist (WYSIWYG) though scourge is better. I also take a single Mauler. He runs down the pipe and my opponents usually HAVE to deal with him. With delightful agonies an or warp time this guy is a massive PITA to ignore. He can be screened out easily, but that;s OK because he usually owns the middle of the table until he dies, which is about 50 50 believe it or not.

I think the bigger question, at least for me, is Mauler fiend or Defiler?

The defiler is only 10 points more in his cheapest configuration but he has +2 wounds and deals out d6 damage on his fists. He also can shoot to some degree, which I never expect to deal any damage and he always surprises me by doing some lol.

**mrstimpson**

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

I'd love to try out a Defiler, but I have to figure out what I want to convert into one to keep with my Iron Warriors theme and just so I'm happy with the model.

Glad to see some support for the melee-brute. I'm sticking with pure IW just because of the paint and lore so I see how ML/LC is probably more optimal, but I've already modeled myself into a hole, so I guess that's what I have to go with.

I'll probably run two fist-hflamer Brutes and two lasherfiends when I get a chance to play next just to get some first hand experience with both and see how that goes.

**the_scotsman**

Disregard both, obtain HB/scourge defiler.

**Galas**

I'll agree with The_Scotsman in the defiler part, not in disregarding both Hellbrute and Maulerfiend because they are competent choices.

But I believe people has still a ton of prejudices about Defilers, when in reality after CA point drops they are VERY, VERY good for what you pay.

**mrstimpson**

So if I was to build a Defiler to try along side my Brutes and fiends, is a combi-bolter, twin heavy bolter, scourge loadout fine at 171pts?

**vaklor4**

mrstimpson wrote:
So if I was to build a Defiler to try along side my Brutes and fiends, is a combi-bolter, twin heavy bolter, scourge loadout fine at 171pts?

I personally wouldn't bother with the bolter, just use the flamer option.

**Nym**

vaklor4 wrote:
I personally wouldn't bother with the bolter, just use the flamer option.

The TL-Heavy flamer is more expensive, and you're not going to shoot it anyway because it screws up your charges. Heavy Bolter all the way. The cheaper the better.

**vaklor4**

Nym wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
I personally wouldn't bother with the bolter, just use the flamer option.

The TL-Heavy flamer is more expensive, and you're not going to shoot it anyway because it screws up your charges. Heavy Bolter all the way. The cheaper the better.

You dont have to shoot the thing youre charging with its rather longer range, and are you REALLY gonna trust a 5 up to hit from shooting a heavy and moving?

**Red Corsair**

mrstimpson wrote:
Thanks for all the responses, guys.

I'd love to try out a Defiler, but I have to figure out what I want to convert into one to keep with my Iron Warriors theme and just so I'm happy with the model.

Glad to see some support for the melee-brute. I'm sticking with pure IW just because of the paint and lore so I see how ML/LC is probably more optimal, but I've already modeled myself into a hole, so I guess that's what I have to go with.

I'll probably run two fist-hflamer Brutes and two lasherfiends when I get a chance to play next just to get some first hand experience with both and see how that goes.

I play a pure IW army, I built mine to be walking bipedal upright. I named him megatron because of his head lol. He does very well, not sure I agree with Galas about any stigma. I see many many chaos players in and around my area running defilers now that they are cheaper. That said, he is still a distraction unit first and you can't expect him to kill everyone he touches. It will surprise you though, at my last RTT mine managed to get into combat with a killy enemy character in every round and kill them which was funny to me. Most ludicrous assassin ever.

**Nym**

vaklor4 wrote:
You dont have to shoot the thing youre charging with its rather longer range, and are you REALLY gonna trust a 5 up to hit from shooting a heavy and moving?

You don't actually shoot with the HEavy Bolter. It's just a tax that you have to pay to get a CC Defiler. First turn you move and advance, second turn you move and charge. Shooting is optional.

**the_scotsman**

Nym wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
You dont have to shoot the thing youre charging with its rather longer range, and are you REALLY gonna trust a 5 up to hit from shooting a heavy and moving?

You don't actually shoot with the HEavy Bolter. It's just a tax that you have to pay to get a CC Defiler. First turn you move and advance, second turn you move and charge. Shooting is optional.

move advance and pop smoke, and second turn I warptime, but yeah. that's the idea.

The defiler is a freaking truck in melee. Comparing the lasher tendrils to the scourge - double strength, an extra flat damage, no degradation of strength. Dumpsterclaws are also strength 16, meaning they wound nearly every vehicle in the game on 2s rather than 3s. The one turn you actually take a pop at something, you're not "trusting" the 5+ to hit, you're treating it as a neat bonus if your cc monstrosity also pops a couple guys with his 6 HB shots or D6 battlecannon shots.

**EverlastingNewb**

the_scotsman wrote:
Nym wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
You dont have to shoot the thing youre charging with its rather longer range, and are you REALLY gonna trust a 5 up to hit from shooting a heavy and moving?

You don't actually shoot with the HEavy Bolter. It's just a tax that you have to pay to get a CC Defiler. First turn you move and advance, second turn you move and charge. Shooting is optional.

move advance and pop smoke, and second turn I warptime, but yeah. that's the idea.

The defiler is a freaking truck in melee. Comparing the lasher tendrils to the scourge - double strength, an extra flat damage, no degradation of strength. Dumpsterclaws are also strength 16, meaning they wound nearly every vehicle in the game on 2s rather than 3s. The one turn you actually take a pop at something, you're not "trusting" the 5+ to hit, you're treating it as a neat bonus if your cc monstrosity also pops a couple guys with his 6 HB shots or D6 battlecannon shots.

The D6 damage of the Defiler & the 8" base movement aren't appealing though, are they? 170-ish points for 2-4 S16 and 3 S12 attacks, i dunno. Sounds rather expensive.

**mrstimpson**

I bought a Defiler today and plan on seeing how the Ironclad Dreadnought body compairs to the Defilers stock turret. If the size difference isn't too much I plan on using the Dreadnought body as the turret and convert some bits for the weapons to match my Ironclad Dreadnoughts I use for Helbrutes. I'll try it in this list I believe.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [62 PL, 1206pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 138pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: 3. Unholy Fortitude, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton, Malefic talon, Warlord, Warp bolter
. . Slaanesh: Delightful Agonies

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 82pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. . Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 82pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. . Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 82pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. . Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

+ Elites +

Helbrute [7 PL, 156pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

Helbrute [7 PL, 156pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

Helbrute [7 PL, 156pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
. . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler [11 PL, 171pts]: Combi-bolter, Defiler scourge, Mark of Slaanesh, Twin heavy bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [43 PL, 793pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 130pts]: Combi-bolter, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime

+ Elites +

Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 282pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. . Chaos Terminator Champion: Chainfist, Combi-flamer
. . Terminator: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. . Terminator: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. . Terminator: Combi-flamer, Power fist
. . Terminator: Combi-flamer, Power fist

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 127pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 127pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 127pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. . Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 1999pts] ++

Once I try it out I'll readjust some stuff and try it with some Lasherfiends as well.

**Desubot**

If it matters or not, doesn't a hell brute benefit from legion tactics while a fiend does not?

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

That’s correctomundo.