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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

Wall of text warning:
This is kind of a fool's errand but if you enjoy wasting time on pointless fictional trivia like I do it may be up your alley!

---

So I've run into a bit of an issue that I'm hoping some fluff aficionados may be able to help me out with

My Space Wolf collection, model-wise, is nearing its ultimate goal:
A complete Great Company (more specifically, Egil's Iron Wolves circa 999.M41)

In the course of pursuing this goal I'm striving to include not only all of the Great Company's personnel, but all of their support craft as well (since the Iron Wolves are the tread-heads among Space Wolves). This includes all sub-orbital, non-reserve vehicles.
While this seemed like a silly, nigh-impossible task for a number of years I'm actually starting to get shockingly close on the model count. Close enough that I'm starting to mull over painting considerations, where one thing has me stumped: vehicle markings.

Or more particularly: vehicle numbering.

See, I figured if I was going to go for assembling a full-on company I may as well try to make it as "historically accurate" as possible. This is easy enough where infantry are concerned - the War Zone Fenris book included a full roster of the Iron Wolves Great Company right around the time period from which I'm seeking to "recreate" them. I'm taking a few liberties here and there (i.e. changes to squad sizes) but by and large getting the infantry roster right is a no-brainer.
But from everything I've found so far the available information on Space Wolf (or even more generic Space Marine) vehicle numbering is...limited.

It's simple enough where dedicated transports are concerned within a codex-compliant chapter company, at least; the vehicle numbers match those of their assigned squad.
What gets trickier is how numbering might work for other support craft as well as transport numbering in a codex-divergent (or non-compliant) chapter like the Space Wolves.

I've looked through a number of sources including, for example, the Space Wolves Painting Guide "Companies of Fenris" and transfer sheets for guidance but the most detail there seems to be where vehicle numbering goes is that space wolf vehicles "are numbered" and there's an included profile illustration of an Iron Wolves Predator numbered "9". That doesn't seem all that helpful really, but between that and transport numbering systems for Codex chapters I can't seem to find much else in the way of vehicle numbering "systems" for space marine vehicles.

---

So where does this very bare-bones guidance leave me?
Well I've done a bit of research into the organizational structure of armoured units in real-world historic settings and I think I've come up with a system that makes sense.

I just want to shop the idea around a little with some fellow fluff-lovers to see if the minor liberties I've taken seem to gel well enough to make sense while still seeming fluffy.

The armoury for my Iron Wolves will be divided into armoured companies, which are themselves divided into platoons containing the individual vehicles (which may or may not be assigned to specific infantry units). Some of these vehicles are mono-purpose, but some are multi-purpose (i.e. they have multiple weapon options for gameplay; fluff-wise they can be refitted for certain roles), so rather than grouping by specific vehicle models the companies and platoons are grouped according to certain roles and infantry squad assignments.

For example:
The 1st armoured company (Infantry Support) contains the following platoons: 01 IFV Platoon, 02 Ranged Support Platoon and 03 Close Support Platoon.

The 01 IFV Platoon contains the following vehicles:
01 – Razorback/Rhino “Spear of Russ” – Assigned to Grey Hunter Pack “The Blackwolves”
02 – Deimos Rhino – Assigned to Grey Hunter Pack “The Ashclaws”
03 – Rhino – Assigned to Grey Hunter Pack “The Steelsouls”
04 – Rhino – Assigned to Grey Hunter Pack “The Hammerfists”

The numbering system that I think makes the most sense with this structure is based off of one used by the Germans in WWII and goes "Company>Platoon>Vehicle".
So what this should mean is that, for example, the Rhino assigned to the "Ashclaws" would be numbered 112.



This doesn't seem to mesh 100% with the way vehicle markings seem to work in what background I can find on the Space Wolves...but then, I don't know that there are any sources that give the numbering systems that much thought.
So I guess, ultimately, I'm looking for some feedback/input. Does this seem like a reasonable way to go about this unreasonable task? OR even better: does anyone know of any sources that go into enough painstaking detail to be of use to me, here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 05:25:04


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Well, the German system is certainly a usable one, but considering that the Wolves are based on Nordic traditions have you looked into how Norway/Sweden/Denmark does its vehicle designations nowadays?

Also, as I've been doing some recent reading on the German numbering system - the 1st vehicle in the group would be the commander's vehicle (sometimes the Germans started with numbers higher than "1" to fool the enemy from targeting the commander, but the Wolves might be too noble for this). Also, Germany didn't start numbering transports until late in the war; replicating this in 40K it may mean that some relic transports might be so old they don't have numbers - or numbers that aren't standard.

Personally, if you're going to go the German route, think it'd be cool if you could incorporate runic letters into the scheme - perhaps replace the Company with the runic letter letter for the company - for example, vehicles of the 1st company might all start with the futhark rune instead of a "1"


It never ends well 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

Hey, thanks for taking the time to wade through all of that for a response!

 Stormonu wrote:
Well, the German system is certainly a usable one, but considering that the Wolves are based on Nordic traditions have you looked into how Norway/Sweden/Denmark does its vehicle designations nowadays?


I had considered that; I'm just at a loss for good resources on this front (so far, at least; I'm still looking into it).

The biggest problem when looking to real-world military armoured vehicle numbering/designation systems is that almost every resource out there is either:
a) American
OR
b) From WWII

Finding resources for contemporary military vehicle marking systems that aren't American is...a challenge. But I am on the lookout for good resources on that front and would certainly love to be pointed towards any; particularly anything closer to a system used by one of the Scandinavian countries.



 Stormonu wrote:
Also, Germany didn't start numbering transports until late in the war; replicating this in 40K it may mean that some relic transports might be so old they don't have numbers - or numbers that aren't standard.


That's a good point, and I certainly had considered the fact that, this being 40k, surely a number of the vehicles in a founding chapter's armoury date back to the Heresy. This is even more likely for the Iron Wolves given that I see them as being more likely to horde any relic vehicles the chapter has as the Fang's resident tread-heads. That said, as the Great Companies are non-Codex-compliant they function a lot more like (dare I say) Chaos warbands than Adeptus Astartes companies and they tend to be shaped very heavily by the wolf lord that leads them. With that in mind I figure any numbering system in place would have been implemented around the time Egil assumed command of the company and he likely made sure vehicles in need of re-numbering were updated accordingly.

Where things get...tricky...as far as your point about transports being numbered differently from other vehicles is where I have to make concessions to the fact that some of my vehicle models can be transports OR battle tanks (I do have to make some small concessions to gameplay, after all, so some of my vehicles need to be magnetized or what have you).

For example: I've got a Predator that doubles as a Razorback for one of my Long Fang squads. That's easy enough to explain fluff-wise: the way I see it the Long Fangs act as crew for their armour when it's fitted as an MBT, whereas when they need to operate as a heavy weapon infantry squad the chassis is fitted as an IFV. But what does that mean for numbering? Do I count the chassis as a battle tank or a transport? Is it more "Predator" or more "Razorback"?

That's where I wound up with the company/platoon breakdown I've got going right now which is structured more around each base vehicle's role in regards to its relationship with the Iron Wolves' infantry (because, let's face it: a Marines company should be revolve around its superhuman infantry).

If you like, I could post up the full breakdown of the company motor pool as it stands, right now.



 Stormonu wrote:
Personally, if you're going to go the German route, think it'd be cool if you could incorporate runic letters into the scheme - perhaps replace the Company with the runic letter letter for the company - for example, vehicles of the 1st company might all start with the futhark rune instead of a "1"


Now that is a really cool idea. That's definitely something I'm going to be considering. Thanks!

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Sorry I dot think I'm going to be very helpful but first I'd like to say I love that you are putting this much thought and effort into fluffing out your army build. It's one of the true joys of the hobby to me.

Second. I have no idea about numbering vehicles in space wolves but I feel if you went the German route you would end up very similar to the guard regimens and that would feel wrong yo me. Love the idea of using fenrisian runes. I personally always imagined the space wolves would give their vehicles grand names rather than numbers and treat them as individuals. No evidence of this, I know named space marine vehicles are common but it's always nick names. Vikings names everything and treated them as though they were living, swords boats the lot.

Anyway, as I said not very helpful but good work and good luck. Would love to see some pics of finished army.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

Thanks for your kind words.

It really is one of the most enjoyable parts of the hobby, I find. I love that there's such a wealth of background material for this absurd fictional setting that I can still treat my collection as a "historic recreation" project. After I'd settled on the Iron Wolves as my Great Company I was thrilled at all the information that became available with the Warzone Fenris book (a little less thrilled that Egil wound up dead...but, ah well! Now I've just decided my company is to be a historic snapshot 'frozen in time').

As for Fenrisian runes, naming, etc. - that's definitely got a part to play in this project.
I intend to have every model individually named when all is said and done - and in the case of vehicles those names will almost certainly be represented on the hull of each of them (in a fittingly rune-looking font).

That being said, the background available does indicate that Space Wolves use numbering systems for their vehicles (i.e. in the Space Wolves Painting Guide and FW material). The transfer sheet, too, includes Arabic numerals in a "rune font" for this purpose:


So while there may be an interesting way to work runes into the numbering system, (i.e. company designations) I do want to keep true to the use of numbers, as well. That and being able to take advantage of the transfer sheets will save me some work in the long run, and I'm all for that.

I'll be happy to share pics along the way (I plan to take one of the full company once I've tracked down the last models) I'm sure, but as for a "finished" army? This project is going (continue!) to keep me busy for years. Don't know if I'll every actually get them all painted...but it's good to have retirement goals, I hear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 14:24:19


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Well you've piqued my interest so I'll do some digging too. Got some very old books going back to first edition. I'll have a foot about.
Is an army ever finished? We all know the answer to that question.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




I always try hard to get this right too. I'll tell you what I know about codex chapters from insignificant astartes and codex ultramarines.

Ultra vehicle markings can actually be comparable to SW great companies because when a tank is assigned to a company it gets company trim and heraldry, just as if it were a permanent part of the company like great companies have permanent tanks.A predator with gold or yellow is second company, with purple it's seventh company. The unit ID goes on a colored circle in that color.

The unit ID is a single numeral, it doesn't have multiple parts. They ID is assigned within vehicle class. You'd have predator II, whirlwind II, and vindicator II, but there is no indication on the ID which it is. The only information is company by color, and unit number.

This seems like not enough information but at the level of combined arms they use armor it makes sense. From battle to battle a tank could be infantry support effectively in a platoon with an infantry pack or two and commanded all together by a wolf guard, or squadroned with other tanks for cavalry use. With all the special terrain like space stations and all the thunder hawk or drop pod assaults marines use, tank crew in even a gear head great company probably spend many missions as grey hunters or long fangs.
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Don't think you'll get a definitive answer but a quick rummage I've found these snippets. First is very old school and just for interest. Think it's from an old epic article from way back when.
[Thumb - image.png]

   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Next up is from death from the skies I think and holds the better answer, to me anyway but it's very much personal choice. It suggests pack markings and names then numbers to identify vehicles in the pack (squadron). So you would have great company badge, pack badge and a single number.
[Thumb - image.png]

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

Huh. And I have Death from the Skies, too. Guess I forgot this portion was in it, but it's good to know that's another reference I can look to.

So that would seem to indicate the organization structure would more accurately be:
Great Company Badge > Pack Badge > Pack Number

Which is all well and good for vehicles assigned permanently to infantry units; they can just share the unit badges and numbers from their roster in Warzone Fenris.

That just leaves me to figure out what to do with the remaining vehicles. I'll have to look over the roster I'm working on again and re-think a few things...

That does help, though - thanks for pointing me toward a forgotten reference!

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

I think it's from there I don't have a copy anymore. I like the idea of three predators having a pack name and a close bond. Fits the brothers in arms style of the space wolves. Take it you aren't going either the big weird letters in the roof option then!
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

No, but I was already planning to use big panels like that to paint pack markings anyway.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

Alright.

Following a system of Great Company Badge > Pack Badge > Pack Number I think will work (and make efficient use of my Space Wolf transfer sheets).

The only trick after settling on that was determining how to group vehicle "packs" for numbering.
I figured the way to go that made the most sense would be to group vehicles based on their relationship to the Iron Wolves' infantry. For example: Grey Hunter transports are grouped together, Long Fang transports are grouped together and support vehicles, MBTs, etc. are grouped together based on their roles within the company. Pack numbering carries over across multiple packs within the same grouping.

Where does that land me? Well, using the information from Warzone Fenris as a starting point, here's where my roster stands currently with assigned vehicle numbers and names. It's a work in progress (i.e. no pack names for the vehicles, yet), but here goes:

*****

IRON WOLVES GREAT COMPANY ROSTER

Company Command


- Egil Iron Wolf

- The Iron Circle – Iron Priests
o Master of the Forge on thunderwolf (assigned to Wolf Guard)*
o Priest with helfrost pistol (assigned to Grey Hunters)
o Priest with bolter (assigned to Blood Claws)
o Priest with servo-harness (assigned to Long Fangs)
o Priest with servo-harness (assigned to Swiftclaws)*
o Priest with servo-harness (assigned to armoury)*

- Wolf Priests (2)

- Rune Priests (2)


Assigned Vehicles
UNNUMBERED – Land Raider (modular) “Ironfist”

---

The Ironguard


- Battle Leader with Power Fist (1)

- Pack Leader in Terminator Armour (1)
o Leads Long Fangs “The Iron Shield”

- Pack Leader on Bike (1)
o Leads Swiftclaw Bikers “The Steelhowls”

- Pack Leader with Jump Pack (1)
o Leads Skyclaws “The Ironstars”

- Pack Leader with Lightning Claws (1)
o Leads Bloodclaws “The Hotbloods”

- Pack of 5
o May deploy in armoured support role with transport refitted as a Predator (any pattern) or Whirlwind


Assigned Vehicles
1 – Razorback/Predator/Whirlwind “Spear of Morkai”

---

The Forgehammers


Assigned Vehicles
2 – Land Raider Godhammer “Vreoirruss, the Fist of Assaheim”
3 – Land Raider

---

The Blackwolves

- Plasmagun squad

Assigned Vehicles
1 – Razorback/Rhino “Spear of Russ”

---

The Ashclaws

- Flamer squad

Assigned Vehicles
2 – Deimos-pattern Rhino “Molten Rage”

---

The Steelsouls

- Meltagun squad

Assigned Vehicles
3 – Rhino “Ragvard”

---

The Hammerfists

- Plasmagun squad

Assigned Vehicles
4 – Rhino “Stalking Blackmane”

---

The Hotbloods


Assigned Vehicles
UNNUMBERED – Land Raider Crusader “Furnace of Ire”

---

The Ironstars


Assigned Vehicles

N/A

---

The Frostclaws

- Lascannons (2)
- Plasma Cannons (3)

Assigned Vehicles
1 – Razorback “Reginmundr”

---

The Iron Shield

- Lascannons (2)
- Multi-Meltas (3)

Assigned Vehicles
2 – Land Raider Achilles Alpha “Svalinn”

---

The Snowfangs

- Heavy Bolters (4)
- May deploy in armoured support role with transport refitted as a Predator (any pattern)

Assigned Vehicles
3 – Razorback/Predator “Frostbite”

---

The Iceriders

- Missile Launchers (5)
- May deploy in armoured support role with transport refitted as a Whirlwind

Assigned Vehicles
4 – Rhino/Whirlwind “Iron Hail”

---

The Steelhowls

- Deployed in aerial support role as part of vehicular training

Assigned Vehicles
1 – Land Speeder (2 crew) “Steel Wind”
2 – Land Speeder (2 crew) “Frost Wraith”
3 – Land Speeder (2 crew) “Freja’s Cry”
4 – Stormtalon Gunship (1 crew) “Ratatoskr”
5 – Stormhawk Interceptor (1 crew) “Iron Star”
6 – Stormhawk Interceptor (1 crew) “Valkyrie”

---

The Trollkillers

- Deployed on bikes but may function as aerial support reserves as part of vehicular training

Assigned Vehicles (Reserves)
7 – Land Speeder (2 crew)
8 – Land Speeder (2 crew)
9 – Land Speeder (2 crew)
10 – Land Speeder Tempest (1 crew)
11 – Land Speeder Tempest (1 crew)
12 – Land Speeder Tempest (1 crew)


---

Armoured Support Packs

Close Support Pack
1 – Vindicator (shieldless) “Instigator”
2 – Vindicator “Wrath of Morkai”
3 – Vindicator “Dromundr”

---

Ranged Support Packs

Pack 1

1 – Leman Russ Command Tank “Mjolnir”
2 – Deimos Predator Executioner “Starfire”
3 – Deimos Predator “Wolf’s Wrath”
4 – Deimos Predator “Ironfang”

Pack 2
5 – Predator Destructor “Iron Vengeance”
6 – Predator Annihilator “Iron Hunter”
7 – Predator Annihilator “Fangs of Morkai”

Reserve Pack
8 – Predator
9 – Predator
10 – Predator

---

Artillery Support Pack
1 – Hunter/Stalker “Skyraker”
2 – Whirlwind “Howling Doom”
3 – Whirlwind “Agmundr”
4 – Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer “Wolfspear”

---

Walker Support Pack
1 – Venerable Dreadnought (FW banner) – Beowulf, Hero of Russvik
2 – Dreadnought – Hjorr the Undying
3 – Venerable Dreadnought (FW) – Hakon the Mighty
4 – Venerable Dreadnought (SW ver.) – Ormarr, Who Smites the Wicked

---

Heavy Support Pack
1 – Sicaran Battle Tank “Will of Russ”
2 – Legion Fellblade “Ragnarok”
3 – Mastodon Heavy Assault Transport “Pride of the Fang”

---

Aerial Support Packs

Air Support Pack 1
1 – Stormfang Gunship “Iron Spear”
2 – Stormfang Gunship “Krakendoom”
3 – Stormwolf “Jormungandr”
4 – Thunderhawk Gunship “Void Stalker”



*****


So there's still plenty of work to do...but this has been a pretty fun exercise in fluff and it's given me a good idea of where I want things to wind up.

Thanks all for participating and helping out with this. :3

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 05:33:59


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Sounds great mate. That is a lot of tanks. And stuff. Good luck. Keep us posted.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Eastern Ontario

It is!

The only items I'm on the fence about as far as collecting are the super-heavies - it's going to be a long time before I manage to land any one of them, if at all.

Apart from those, though, and the reserve vehicles assigned to the Trollkillers, I'm actualy getting pretty close to having everything else accounted for...(the infantry I've had sorted out for ages and having so many Space Wolves was what 'inspired' me to fill out a full Great Company in the first place). So it may not be all that far off in the future that having this numbering figured out will actually come in handy.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
 
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