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Made in gb
Norn Queen






With a D6 system modifiers are insanely powerful. If it were a D12 system I think it would be more acceptable to have -2 or -3 modifiers, but right now it's beyond bananas that you can have a unit get up to -5 to hit. That shouldn't happen to ANY unit.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hmm. Speaking as an eldar player, I'd probably be okay with that. It shuts down a lot of interesting combos (sun rifle hawks, stratagems, conceal, shiftshroud, spiders, spectres, etc.), but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Guard/tau/orks being completely incapable of shooting one of my units is more problematic than stackable modifiers are fun.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Norn Queen






Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. Speaking as an eldar player, I'd probably be okay with that. It shuts down a lot of interesting combos (sun rifle hawks, stratagems, conceal, shiftshroud, spiders, spectres, etc.), but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Guard/tau/orks being completely incapable of shooting one of my units is more problematic than stackable modifiers are fun.
It's not fun for the opponent to have -2 to hit when shooting Dark Reapers (Alatioc and Stratagem) or up to -5 when shooting Warp Spiders

I mean, I could see ±2 with a always hit and wound on 6, the same way 1 always fails, to be fair.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 01:08:02


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Those modifiers are super rare though aren't they?

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Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

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ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Norn Queen






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those modifiers are super rare though aren't they?
They might be rare but it shouldn't exist even rarely.
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those modifiers are super rare though aren't they?
They might be rare but it shouldn't exist even rarely.


Getting -4 is pretty rare/expensive and generally a bad idea (because the resources you spend to pull it off are better spent elsewhere), but it's pretty easy to get a -2 or even -3 with some units. Shadow Spectres or Warp Spiders can both have a -1 in the shooting phase easily with an extra -1 from what is basically the Raven Guard chapter tactic. A psychic power or stratagem can make this a -3. Against marines, that's a not-insignificant investment to make your opponent hit on 5s or 6s in the shooting phase, but it's a bit more problematic against, for instance, orks. The above units are basically untargetable by ork shooting.

I don't necessarily share BCB's view that -4 to hit on a single unit in my army in the shooting phase if I spend 2CP and cast a psychic power is all that unreasonable, but the "always on" -2 can be kind of a big deal.

Basically, comboing to impose a -3 or -4 here and there isn't as big a deal to me as having access to a reliable -2 on multiple units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. Speaking as an eldar player, I'd probably be okay with that. It shuts down a lot of interesting combos (sun rifle hawks, stratagems, conceal, shiftshroud, spiders, spectres, etc.), but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Guard/tau/orks being completely incapable of shooting one of my units is more problematic than stackable modifiers are fun.
It's not fun for the opponent to have -2 to hit when shooting Dark Reapers (Alatioc and Stratagem) or up to -5 when shooting Warp Spiders

I mean, I could see ±2 with a always hit and wound on 6, the same way 1 always fails, to be fair.


To be fair, dark reapers are kind of an outlier for lots of reasons. I don't feel terribly apologetic for fielding sunrifle hawkxarchs alongside bansheexarchs to make my squishy strength 3 melee units more survivable in close combat, but I do see how having marines hit half as often, guard hit hardly ever, and orks not hit at all isn't terribly engaging..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 03:42:54



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





No. Just cap it at 6+ always hits.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 JimOnMars wrote:
No. Just cap it at 6+ always hits.

That basically only helps ork players, which I assume is why you suggested it.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

-2 is quite easy though, just a plain -1 applied to a flier and then you have that -2.

I'm totally in favor into limiting the negative modifier into a max of -1. IMHO it's the new invisibility, too annoying.

 
   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Negative hit modifier should be capped at -2: up to -1 for innate abilities, stackable up to -2 with nearby aura.
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I would say you implant a rule that 6s always hit, but if you are modified to a point of needing a 8 to hit, you have to roll a 6, then roll your normal BS to actually hit.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The thing that weirds me out about capping modifiers is that you're taking a unit that would be penalized for moving and firing, and then telling it that it isn't penalized for moving and firing so long as it's shooting something that's got a penalty-to-hit ability.

The other thing to consider here is that a -1 or -2 to hit is pretty much always enough; stacking further penalties to hit is a gimmick that tends to rely on running suboptimal units and isn't actually that problematic ("I can make my light tank unhittable by Guardsmen if I pay 110pts for two BS4+ shuriken cannons!"). So making shots hitting on worse than a 6 hit on a 6 is a moderate buff to Orks and a narrow buff to Guardsmen, but doesn't really have a huge impact on the game.

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Earth

I was having this conversation last night during a game, I had gimped an enemy knight with

Aversion, mind wipe, and had a dark shroud, thats -3 right off the bat, after it had degraded it could not shoot at all.

But rather than a cap, I would prefer that a natural 6 always hits regardless of modifiers.
   
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 Formosa wrote:
I was having this conversation last night during a game, I had gimped an enemy knight with

Aversion, mind wipe, and had a dark shroud, thats -3 right off the bat, after it had degraded it could not shoot at all.

But rather than a cap, I would prefer that a natural 6 always hits regardless of modifiers.


I like this but it needs to be if your modified BS is above a 6+ you must roll your hits any 6s must be rerolled and beat your unmodified bs. Other wise always hitting on 6 and wounding on 6 makes orks don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n same with guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 08:09:18


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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I don’t think it should be greater than -2, but I would favor a rollover system (though it’d be a little more complex). Additional minuses to hit would roll over to modifiers to the target’s toughness and eventually armor rolls, up to a max of 2 to each stat.

Thus
-1 or -2 to hit - remains as is
-3 To hit becomes -1 to Hit, +1 to Target’s Toughness
-4 To hit becomes -2 to Hit, +1 to Target’s Toughness
-5 To hit becomes -1 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughness
-6 To hit becomes -2 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughness
-7 To hit becomes -1 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughnes, +1 to Target’s armor
-8 To hit becomes -2 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughness, +1 to Target’s armor
-9 To hit becomes -1 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughness, +2 to Target’s armor
-10 or more To hit becomes -2 to Hit, +2 to Target’s Toughness, +2 to Target’s armor


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Formula is a -2 becomes +1 to Toughness or +1 Armor)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 17:58:06


It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka







I don't think that's really a problem though. Guardsmen are almost never hitting on worse than 6's (-3 to hit isn't super easy to come across and usually only affects one unit at a time) Orks (if not everyone) need an always hit on 6s rule if only because they're so much more susceptible to having their shooting completely negated.

Orks hitting and wounding everything on 6s doesn't seem that bad to me. 30 shoota boyz hitting on 6s will hit about 10 times and put about 5 wounds on marines before saves. Not that scary. 50 conscripts hitting and wounding something on 6s is 100 shots -> ~66 hits -> ~11 wounds before saves. For their points cost and considering you'd need to get 50 dudes into rapid fire range of this hypothetical target, I'm not sure sure that's all that problematic either.

On the other hand, I've found the whole "roll 6s and then roll to hit on a slightly better number" thing annoying in other games that use similar mechanics (like the Tolkien games GW puts out). At some point, the probability of your attack doing something is low enough that it isn't really worth spending the time rolling for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 08:10:30



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Could also use an exploding dice result - ona roll of 6 To hit, roll again and add to the result. So, if for example, you roll a 6, roll again and get a 3, that hits as a 9. Maybe with a stipulation that a 1 on the second roll adds nothing, so a roll of 6 and then 1 counts as 6.

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Capping modifiers to hit at -1 will have equally ridiculous consequences.
If your enemy's army has an innate -1 to be hit ability, you just got a excuse to move with your Heavy weapons at no penalty, since it won't matter if you move or not.
The same can happen if you cap the modifiers at -2, although it wouldn't come up as often.

The best solution is to make natural 6s to hit be a success. While this mostly helps low BS armies like Orks, it also means stacking several -1 to hits become pointless after -3.

Another option that can help with this is to introduce another modifier similar to the "close range" bonus that the older Fantasy game had. Units received +1 to hit if within half weapons range.
Obviously this wouldn't work in 40K due to just how many long range guns there are, however it could be reworked to do the following:
"If a unit has selected a target with a -1 to be hit ability and is within half of their selected weapons' range, the unit can ignore the -1 to hit. This only applies to a single -1 modifier. Additional modifiers, including moving with Heavy weapons will still apply"

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/29 15:42:12


   
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Cap it so your BS can never be worse then a 6+

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Cap it so your BS can never be worse then a 6+

Which is effectively the exact same as having natural 6s always hit. Except less loop-holey since modifiers do not alter you BS, but alter your dice rolls.

A Marine suffering -2 to hit still has BS3+ and will still hit on 3s, however, his dice rolls will be at -2, meaning a 5 on the dice is technically the 3+ needed.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 16:55:55


   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





I am against 6’s always hitting because that favors horde armies which already have a lot going for them.

I am also gainst capping modifiers because it’s already difficult to get past -3 to hit anyway.

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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I don't think there needs to be a universal cap or universal hit on 6s rule.

But Orks should probably ignore negative hit modifiers. They barely aim anyway.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't think there needs to be a universal cap or universal hit on 6s rule.

But Orks should probably ignore negative hit modifiers. They barely aim anyway.


Why not give orks a battle forged rule

Never enough dakka: if your army is battle forged with all orks your BS can never be modified past a 6+ nor can your BS ever be modified better then a 2+

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Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Its pretty stupid to only give it to Orks, their terrible aim should work agaisn't them. Everyone should be able to always hit on a 6+

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In My Lab

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its pretty stupid to only give it to Orks, their terrible aim should work agaisn't them. Everyone should be able to always hit on a 6+


The logic being that they have more shots than anyone else, they're just only aimed in the general direction of the foe, so all the fancy stealth suits don't matter. Everyone else aims.

And, with the exception of Conscripts and Tau (in close combat only, for Tau), you need a -3 penalty to never hit. That takes SERIOUS resource investment, and should be rewarded. Moreover, it's virtually impossible to get -3 on more than one or two units at a time.

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Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

So give them more shots? And besides, firing wildly at an even harder to hit target doesn't help.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 18:37:53


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 Bobthehero wrote:
So give them more shots?


More shots don't mean anything If it's impossible to hit

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Krieg! What a hole...

Give them more shots and make everyone able to always hit on 6+, then.

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Nids and Guard can also field a large number of shots. Even larger than the average Ork army. So why would reckless aim give Orks an advantage that those armies don't have?

I don't think giving Orks a specific advantage is the answer.
Always hitting on a natural 6 is a better answer. It benefits more than just Orks.

You could always give the target +1 saving throws if the unit shooting would normally not be able to shoot without the always hits on 6 amendment.

-

   
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Let's get real here - no army should have a -1 to hit at 12" as a free army trait. It's exceptionally busted.

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