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What's the relationship of the Dark Eldar and Khaine? Do they still worship, or at least revere him? I know they don't have any shard of him, nor would they really bother summoning him, but I like the idea of a kabal/coven of Dark Eldar who are on (relatively) good terms with a Craftworld that's all about the god of murder. I imagine Incubi would be a major building block of such a force.

I'm imagining a combined force where the Eldar side has been so consumed and overextended by rage that it's mostly aspect warriors stuck on the path craving constant battle. The kabal, especially its attached Incubi, would be more than happy to oblige, either as an opponent or an ally.

The Incubi are the only faction that worships Khaine. They are corrupted version of the Aspect Warriors. The majority of the Dark Eldar, however, would probably hate Khaine for 2 reasons:

Worshipping cults are banned by Overlord Vect.

Khaine lost to the Slaanesh, which caused the Eldar Empire to fall. The Dark Eldar see no reason to revere such a weakling who failed to protect them when they still worshipped him.

I think they'd have less disrespect for Khaine than other gods. Khaine's someone who wasn't afraid to fight but was too weak whereas the others were both.

It's complicated. The Eldar don't necessarily view their gods in terms of 'worship' the way humans do. Those of the Craftworlds refer to themselves as Asuryani because they follow the 'Path' system, which is associated with Asuryan even though it came into being only after the Fall. They don't 'worship' Asuryan. There'd be no point since he is dead. To follow a god means to follow their teachings, or their mythic example. 'Prayer' might be involved, but it is closer to a Buddhist mantra, a focus for meditation, than to any Abrahamic idea of prayer as communion with a distinct supernatural agency.

And the Eldar gods have always been 'dead' to them. 'Modern' Eldar generally believe they died in the Fall, eaten by Slaanesh. But pre-Fall Eldar believed just as strongly that their gods had died in the War in Heaven 60 million years before (see Gav Thorpe's Asurmen). The gods have always lived in the mythic past, fundamentally separated from living Eldar.

Asurmen and the other Phoenix Lords seem to have actually created Khaine out of racial memory by building the Aspect Shrines, rather than merely 'preserving' him from Slaanesh. There seem to have been no shrines or temples to Khaine prior to the Fall (the first Jain Zar had not even heard of him).

Aspect Warriors may seem like 'priests' of Khaine, but really they're more like his metaphysical jailers. They use the teachings of Asuryan to harness Khaine's bloodlust to serve the Eldar race. Except it might be more true to say they use Asurmen's teachings to harness their own bloodlust.

Eldar gods are more like psychological metaphors than distinct supernatural beings.

Craftworld Eldar sometimes speak of their Commorrite cousins as 'Children of Khaine', not because they worship Khaine, but because they embody those parts of the Eldar psyche that Khaine represents (rage, bloodlust, sadism), unrestrained by those parts Asuryan represents (discipline, foresight).

The Commorrites themselves don't seem to care about their stupid dead ancestors' stupid dead gods one way or another. Most likely they'd think of them as metaphors for weakness if they bothered to think of them at all. They certainly don't 'revere' anything beyond a certain admiration for physical prowess and imaginative sadism. Asdrubael Vect and Lelith Hesperax are the closest they have to 'gods', I think.

AFAIK, no Commorrite has ever referred to him/herself by reference to Khaine.

Do we have any source for the Phoenix Lords creating Khaine?

Jain Zar didn't know gods because she lived as a slave gladiator. I doubt religious education was a priority there.

pm713 wrote:
Do we have any source for the Phoenix Lords creating Khaine?

Jain Zar didn't know gods because she lived as a slave gladiator. I doubt religious education was a priority there.

According to lore they did not, the novels just mention the cult to the Gods was largely gone but notthing else.

in Fact in rise of the Ynnari Ghost warrior wich revolves about the most ancient Craftworld who left before the Fall

I think it's also important to know that the Aeldari were created by the Old Ones and the pantheon of "gods" is likely a racial memory of these actual beings, rather than true divine entities.
DE likely know this too, an thus "worship" is not really a good term, even if certain groups like Incubi still revere Khaine.

-

So, approaching this from the other way around then, as I'm basically looking for a decent excuse to pair my small Craftworld force with some new Dark Eldar detachments.

Could an entire Craftworld be so claimed by the rage of Khaine that they exhibit a sort of affinity for working with a more martially proud/inclined kabal? Basically one that's gone full Ahab against some enemy, seeking such obsessive and excessive destruction that even their Dark Eldar buddies decided to join along for the ride? Perhaps an Archon who'd been around from the good 'ol days with a bit of sentiment for some brotherly slaughter (both together and of one-another), or takes delight in how far the given Craftworlders' path has lead them to their state of desperation.

That sounds entirely possible. Go for it.

 Galef wrote:
I think it's also important to know that the Aeldari were created by the Old Ones and the pantheon of "gods" is likely a racial memory of these actual beings, rather than true divine entities.
DE likely know this too, an thus "worship" is not really a good term, even if certain groups like Incubi still revere Khaine.

-

Why would the DE have any idea of anything like that? The oldest of them are from a time when Gods were thought of as Gods but ignored.

The termn god is a very sloppy defined word. It can be used from the omniknowledge omnipowerfull crhistian god alle the way to a kami of a porcelain teacup. Not only is the power level fluctuating but their special characteristisk are also very vidly defined.

 Galef wrote:
I think it's also important to know that the Aeldari were created by the Old Ones and the pantheon of "gods" is likely a racial memory of these actual beings, rather than true divine entities.
DE likely know this too, an thus "worship" is not really a good term, even if certain groups like Incubi still revere Khaine.

That's not the case. Eldar gods were originally psychic weapons they created to help the Old Ones to fight the C'tan.

Liber Chaotica wrote:
I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods.

But the battle was long and the first ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.

 Duskweaver wrote:

The Commorrites themselves don't seem to care about their stupid dead ancestors' stupid dead gods one way or another. Most likely they'd think of them as metaphors for weakness if they bothered to think of them at all. They certainly don't 'revere' anything beyond a certain admiration for physical prowess and imaginative sadism.

They haven't completely ignored them. Their biggest and most dangerous portal into the Warp is called Khaine's Gate. At the very least, the metaphor still carries weight.

Is there any reference for the Eldar gods being myths at the Fall?

The materials I've read make them to be rather pivitol. There are physical remnants of Khaine that showed up after he was destroyed. Cegorath seems to have actually retreated into the webway.

There are still some (non-Aspect Warrior) Eldar who were alive before the Fall. In timeperiod, 10k years ago for the Eldar is more like 1900 to us than 0AD to us.

(Phoenix Lords and Exarchs don't really age, and are rather obsessed with their paths, so don't really count)

Bharring wrote:
Is there any reference for the Eldar gods being myths at the Fall?

The materials I've read make them to be rather pivitol. There are physical remnants of Khaine that showed up after he was destroyed. Cegorath seems to have actually retreated into the webway.

They were quite real.

The dark eldars are atheists then ?

 godardc wrote:
The dark eldars are atheists then ?

Not really. They pretty much have to believe in their gods seeing as some are out and about.

pm713 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
The dark eldars are atheists then ?

Not really. They pretty much have to believe in their gods seeing as some are out and about.

They are Discworld atheists. Of course the gods are real, but they have no reason to worship them. Being in a bubble universe does wonders for an open mind.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
The dark eldars are atheists then ?

Not really. They pretty much have to believe in their gods seeing as some are out and about.

They are Discworld atheists. Of course the gods are real, but they have no reason to worship them. Being in a bubble universe does wonders for an open mind.

Yeah the discworld analogy is quite good. I think they are talking about the witches of discworld, and they know gods exists, but they do not belive in them. That would be like beliving in the postman. He delivers your mail you know he is there, but you do not belive in him.

The term god is very ficle and unprecises, and thus the term atheist is also very ficleand unprecise within the 40K fictional universe.

 Niiai wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
The dark eldars are atheists then ?

Not really. They pretty much have to believe in their gods seeing as some are out and about.

They are Discworld atheists. Of course the gods are real, but they have no reason to worship them. Being in a bubble universe does wonders for an open mind.

Yeah the discworld analogy is quite good. I think they are talking about the witches of discworld, and they know gods exists, but they do not belive in them. That would be like beliving in the postman. He delivers your mail you know he is there, but you do not belive in him.

The term god is very ficle and unprecises, and thus the term atheist is also very ficleand unprecise within the 40K fictional universe.

Technically that cannot be atheism by definition, and is probably closer to deism or apatheism, although we don't really have a word for someone who knows a god exists, but chooses not to worship them deliberately. Antitheist perhaps?

I think Dark Eldar see worshipping an Eldar God a bit like worshipping the local head of the Council. Sure, you know he exists, he has power in some ways, and you could probably go and knock on his door if you really needed to find him for some reason. But you don't believe in him. He's just....well, over there somewhere. It would be like believing in the postman.

 Ketara wrote:
I think Dark Eldar see worshipping an Eldar God a bit like worshipping the local head of the Council. Sure, you know he exists, he has power in some ways, and you could probably go and knock on his door if you really needed to find him for some reason. But you don't believe in him. He's just....well, over there somewhere. It would be like believing in the postman.

Yeah I like this explanation.

There's quite a good nuance I came across in the (brilliant) comic Digger which provides a novel look at how someone can be an atheist in a world where gods categorically exist.

You can believe a god exists, but you might not have faith in them.

Yes Khaine exists, but do I have faith in him? Do I believe he will answer my prayers? He's a god, but is he my god?