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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Personally I think they're one of the weakest legions:

If an Ultramarines unit (including tanks and walkers) shoots at a target, all ultramarine infantry get re-roll to wound and armor pen rolls of a 1.

Ultramarine units charging into a combat locked in combat my re-roll the dice.

Ultramarine make fear and regroup tests at 10.

If all HQ die then the army makes a pinning test.



Okay, the main problem with rule number one is that the unit which "paints" the target does not get the bonus. So whilst, for example, Imperial Fists get a flat bonus to BS all the time Ultramarines will only get it on one unit. So if two UM tactical squads are having a shoot out with two IF tac squads only one ultra squad gets the benefit whereas both IF squads get the benefit.

Also, your ability to have multiple squads firing at the same target diminishes greatly in smaller point games and as the game progresses you will have less units to combine fire with. Plus, if you're playing on a board with LOS blocking terrain (which you're supposed to), your entire army can't mutually support itself.

Plus, units in Heresy are highly specialized. It does not make sense to waste shooting a tactical squad at a rhino to paint it for your heavy weapons. Or, likewise, wasting bolters for plasma guns on terminators. Its very counter intuitive.

I've heard some people insist that you can take rhinos to confer the rule to the attached squad. Again, lets assume the rhino isn't destroyed. You are now actually wasting points to get access to rules you should just get for free like every other legion.

This is a rule which boosts shooting. 2 out of 3 of the unique Ultra units are close combat specialists. All of the Ultra other unique rules are about boosting close combat. This means they lack synergy. World Eaters or Sons of Horus have many mutually supporting rules that lend themselves to a very specific playstyle. Ultramarines basically get a very, very modest buff.

A re-roll of a 1 does not matter for most units. For example IF get a 16% flat bonus to their killing power. But, with Ultra its a re-roll of a 1. You still need to confirm the re-roll. On something like a boltgun this means that on average if 12 marines fire with this rule, 2 will re-roll and one will wound. That will not compensate for World Eater chainaxes or plus 1 toughness...

The reason why close combat buffs are more important is because those additional wounds caused by your legion rules can be what wins you the combat, allowing you to have a higher chance of wiping the squad. So a small boost to shooting does not have anywhere near the same impact. Killing an extra man in close combat can really matter for your morale check, dong it in shooting does not.

You are encouraged to confer this bonus to heavy weapons which wound on 2 (effectively this gives them shred). However, heavy weapons have longer range than most guns which could confer this. Also, this only really supports a particular army style. Most Heresy armies go tanks and dreadnoughts for their high power weapons. Unless you take 3 heavy weapon squads or a ton of tactical support squads you effectively don't benefit from this rule.

How does this rule offset WE bonuses? IH? IF? I've went through entire 4k battles and barely scraped one or two additional kills from this rule and I take very infantry focused armies with lots of army slots being used.

The Horus Heresy rules are costed to discourage taking MSU. You gain significant cost benefits by taking larger squads. So if you take lots of small units you are at a points disadvantage compared to your opponent who can take advantage of those cost savings in the list. You also have a limited number of slots anyway in the typical 4k game to spam MSU.


So the second rule ignores a few basic realities of close combat in 40k. Almost all close combat gets resolved in one round because you have leadership. Them 10 terminators drop out of their Spartan, charge your unit (which they will only have done if they are sure they can win) and will 90% of the time wipe out or rout the unit. If I am charging the enemy lines, lets say I have 10 sword breachers in LR 1 and 10 invictari in LR2. I am not going to charge both squads into one unit in the enemies gunline. I will want to charge as many different units in close combat as possible, otherwise he will shoot me with those other units in his turn. So this rule will in practice almost never be relevant and a rule you never use isn't a benefit. Like literally this rule has never come into play.

Plus, the Ultra are a gunline army that lacks the CC benefits of other legions. So only specialized assault units like the Invictari can gain the benefit of this rule. Which means you aren't going to have that many of them. So there won't be that many supporting charges.



Unless you are playing Night Lords fear is not a common enough rule to matter.

First of all, if you regroup, then presumably you have lost the combat, so I only benefit from this rule if I am losing the game, I somehow managed to not get sweeping advance and congratulations those two guys are going to win me the game.


So to top it all off, you get a massive army wide penalty if you lose all your HQ. Now granted, if you have lost all your HQ then, you've presumably lost the game anyway; but its basically salt in the wounds. Death Guard and IW get very modest buffs as well, but they don't get an actual penalty.


Honorary mentions:

Sword Breachers - This unit is borderline unusable. Breachers are already overcosted. Giving them power weapons removes their boltguns, crippling the unit. Breachers have low WS, low attack and can't benefit from having two weapons. Ultra do not have a rite of war like IF to boost them. Any 2 plus unit will butcher this squad. You only have 3 plus armor but cost almost as much as a terminator. All it takes is that plasma squadron, grav leviathan or any other obligatory death unit and you can say goodbye to your 450 point white elephant. Frankly this should be a free upgrade and have a rite of war focusing on using them. 10 of these are only going to put down 2.5 marines a turn.

Invictari - At £12 per model you cannot field an entire army of Invictari to counteract all of the above, despite costing as much as the sword breachers but being better in all regards. Plus, they lack a good invul save against shooting.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 09:46:38



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As a Dark Angel player, most of my rules sit in wargear that requires points investment to get ahold of. Unless of course you count occasionally hitting on 3s in close combat, and giving more points to my opponent if I don't kill their stuff hard enough.

Also, must be nice to have Legion specific units to critique.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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Poor Dark Angels. You get Frost Swords for free upgrades. I pay extra and get saddled with Specialist.

I have to pay a hq tax that's way more than everyone else and generally get terrible unique units. Everyone can complain.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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England: Newcastle

 obsidiankatana wrote:
As a Dark Angel player, most of my rules sit in wargear that requires points investment to get ahold of. Unless of course you count occasionally hitting on 3s in close combat, and giving more points to my opponent if I don't kill their stuff hard enough.

Also, must be nice to have Legion specific units to critique.


You get plus 1 to hit with all swords. That includes close combat weapons since they are swords. So, the vast bulk of your basic infantry. So you should be hitting with 3s most of the time. This means you are hitting with a paragon blade on a 2 most times. Gulliman can't hit basic marines on a 2.

You also get a plus 1 str power sword for sergeants (my club has basically banned artificer sergeants so this is awesome) so you can chew through infantry. I can only get the Legatine Axe for Independent Characters.

I've had full EC units gets the charge and lose more men because of both these rules.

These are solid rules that confer some big advantages.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Poor Dark Angels. You get Frost Swords for free upgrades. I pay extra and get saddled with Specialist.

I have to pay a hq tax that's way more than everyone else and generally get terrible unique units. Everyone can complain.


Yeah but Wolves get some crazy bonuses and they have synergy.

You get counter attack and plus 1 WS on the charge. Which means you can overwatch and be no worse off. So you always get extra WS on the first round of combat.

Your basic infantry can run and charge. This is madness.

Some of your rites of war hand out army wide special rules which further boost this CC potential with very few limitations. If I take Logus for the army wide rules I am actually unable to deploy anything via deepstrike or infiltrate, which actually bans me from using one of my unique legion units who get a modest shooting bonus when they first land in deep strike.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 13:55:24



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Personally I think they're one of the weakest legions:

If an Ultramarines unit (including tanks and walkers) shoots at a target, all ultramarine infantry get re-roll to wound and armor pen rolls of a 1.

Ultramarine units charging into a combat locked in combat my re-roll the dice.

Ultramarine make fear and regroup tests at 10.

If all HQ die then the army makes a pinning test.



Okay, the main problem with rule number one is that the unit which "paints" the target does not get the bonus. So whilst, for example, Imperial Fists get a flat bonus to BS all the time Ultramarines will only get it on one unit. So if two UM tactical squads are having a shoot out with two IF tac squads only one ultra squad gets the benefit whereas both IF squads get the benefit.


Imperial Fists only get +1 BS with Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters, and Quad Heavy Bolters.

Also, your ability to have multiple squads firing at the same target diminishes greatly in smaller point games and as the game progresses you will have less units to combine fire with. Plus, if you're playing on a board with LOS blocking terrain (which you're supposed to), your entire army can't mutually support itself.


Smaller point games should use smaller point sized units. 30K shouldn't be played at less then 2,000 points unless you are playing Zone Mortalis games and that's a totally different kind of game.

Plus, units in Heresy are highly specialized. It does not make sense to waste shooting a tactical squad at a rhino to paint it for your heavy weapons. Or, likewise, wasting bolters for plasma guns on terminators. Its very counter intuitive.


You get to reroll ones. Remember that when you are shooting your Plasmagun equipped Support Squads. Yes, your Tactical Squad "wastes" it's fire against a bunch of Terminators, but the Plasmagun Support Squad erases the Terminators.

I've heard some people insist that you can take rhinos to confer the rule to the attached squad. Again, lets assume the rhino isn't destroyed. You are now actually wasting points to get access to rules you should just get for free like every other legion.


A Rhino only costs 35 points, which is nothing in a 2,000+ point game. My Rhino's all cost 50 points as I always take a Multi-melta on my Rhino's to add to my anti-tank fire power.

This is a rule which boosts shooting. 2 out of 3 of the unique Ultra units are close combat specialists. All of the Ultra other unique rules are about boosting close combat. This means they lack synergy. World Eaters or Sons of Horus have many mutually supporting rules that lend themselves to a very specific playstyle. Ultramarines basically get a very, very modest buff.


Ultramarines were supposed to be the ultimate generalists in all the Legions.

A re-roll of a 1 does not matter for most units. For example IF get a 16% flat bonus to their killing power. But, with Ultra its a re-roll of a 1. You still need to confirm the re-roll. On something like a boltgun this means that on average if 12 marines fire with this rule, 2 will re-roll and one will wound. That will not compensate for World Eater chainaxes or plus 1 toughness...


How do the IF get a 16% flat bonus to their killing power? Again, it's with Bolters. Bolters have never done anything for me in my army.* I can think of maybe two units in 30K that have a T5 stat? There are a bunch of Mechanicum units I guess, and maybe Custodes? I don't know. It's never been a factor for my games. YMMV.

The reason why close combat buffs are more important is because those additional wounds caused by your legion rules can be what wins you the combat, allowing you to have a higher chance of wiping the squad. So a small boost to shooting does not have anywhere near the same impact. Killing an extra man in close combat can really matter for your morale check, dong it in shooting does not.


The Ultramarines have fantastic leadership test rules. All your regrouping is taken on unmodified leadership tests, and you roll all pinning and fear tests on an unmodified 10.

You are encouraged to confer this bonus to heavy weapons which wound on 2 (effectively this gives them shred). However, heavy weapons have longer range than most guns which could confer this. Also, this only really supports a particular army style. Most Heresy armies go tanks and dreadnoughts for their high power weapons. Unless you take 3 heavy weapon squads or a ton of tactical support squads you effectively don't benefit from this rule.


This is a meta thing. Every meta is different. My Sons of Horus are a foot slogging army and I regularly play against a mounted Alpha Legion list and I almost always win vs. his entire army being in Rhinos and using tanks.

How does this rule offset WE bonuses? IH? IF? I've went through entire 4k battles and barely scraped one or two additional kills from this rule and I take very infantry focused armies with lots of army slots being used.

The Horus Heresy rules are costed to discourage taking MSU. You gain significant cost benefits by taking larger squads. So if you take lots of small units you are at a points disadvantage compared to your opponent who can take advantage of those cost savings in the list. You also have a limited number of slots anyway in the typical 4k game to spam MSU.


You are correct! 30K is not about MSU, it's about big squads. The only armies I consider "borderline OP" in 30K are IH and Mechanicum. Custodies just suck to play against. LOL

So the second rule ignores a few basic realities of close combat in 40k. Almost all close combat gets resolved in one round because you have leadership. Them 10 terminators drop out of their Spartan, charge your unit (which they will only have done if they are sure they can win) and will 90% of the time wipe out or rout the unit. If I am charging the enemy lines, lets say I have 10 sword breachers in LR 1 and 10 invictari in LR2. I am not going to charge both squads into one unit in the enemies gunline. I will want to charge as many different units in close combat as possible, otherwise he will shoot me with those other units in his turn. So this rule will in practice almost never be relevant and a rule you never use isn't a benefit. Like literally this rule has never come into play.


Every time I build an army, I ask myself the basic question: "What will I do against a Spartan full of Terminators?" You should always have an answer for this. Sicarian Venerator, a Heavy Support Squad of all Lascannons, Melta Support Squad in a Rhino, Assault Sqaud with Melta Bombs, my own Spartan full of Terminators, Levithan Dread... if he is using his 750+ point unit to assault a Tactical Squad, then you need to hit him somewhere else on the board to punish him for his mistake. If he is hitting your "power squad", well, you should have hit him first? Easier said then done, I know.

Plus, the Ultra are a gunline army that lacks the CC benefits of other legions. So only specialized assault units like the Invictari can gain the benefit of this rule. Which means you aren't going to have that many of them. So there won't be that many supporting charges.


You get to reroll charges against a unit already engaged in close combat, and you have great leadership for close combat.

Unless you are playing Night Lords fear is not a common enough rule to matter.


Unless you fight a lot of Word Bearers, or something everyone seems to forget, all Primarchs have the fear special rule, and it confers to any unit they join.

First of all, if you regroup, then presumably you have lost the combat, so I only benefit from this rule if I am losing the game, I somehow managed to not get sweeping advance and congratulations those two guys are going to win me the game.


Just because you lose one close combat doesn't mean you are losing the game. Even if you charge with a hard as nails close combat unit, there is the chance you could lose the close combat. The Dice Gawds are sometimes fickle.

So to top it all off, you get a massive army wide penalty if you lose all your HQ. Now granted, if you have lost all your HQ then, you've presumably lost the game anyway; but its basically salt in the wounds. Death Guard and IW get very modest buffs as well, but they don't get an actual penalty.


You seem to have an Legatine Axe to grind against the Imperial Fists. The drawback for IF's Leadership bonus is that they must ALWAYS issue a challenge and cannot choose to fail a Morale check. That's a pretty big drawback if you ask me. Iron Hands have to pass a Leadership test to sweeping advance or run, and they can't Go to Ground. The most annoying rule the IH have is the -1 S vs. shooting. Everyone hates the IH for that rule. Also, they have some pretty severe army list restrictions.

Honorary mentions:

Sword Breachers - This unit is borderline unusable. Breachers are already overcosted. Giving them power weapons removes their boltguns, crippling the unit. Breachers have low WS, low attack and can't benefit from having two weapons. Ultra do not have a rite of war like IF to boost them. Any 2 plus unit will butcher this squad. You only have 3 plus armor but cost almost as much as a terminator. All it takes is that plasma squadron, grav leviathan or any other obligatory death unit and you can say goodbye to your 450 point white elephant. Frankly this should be a free upgrade and have a rite of war focusing on using them. 10 of these are only going to put down 2.5 marines a turn.


Any unit of Breachers are "meh" at best. You are comparing an already meh unit to one of the best units in the game. Why are you running Breachers in your Ultramarines when you have access to Invictari squads? I'd kill to have a unit like that in Sons of Horus. Breacher squads also have Bolt Pistols, so you are really only trading in a rapid fire gun for a pistol, and the entire unit doens't have to swap out for power swords. Give this squad an Apothecary and see how well it does.

Invictari - At £12 per model you cannot field an entire army of Invictari to counteract all of the above, despite costing as much as the sword breachers but being better in all regards. Plus, they lack a good invul save against shooting.


Anyone playing 30K shouldn't be worried about the monetary price per model of a unit. Forge World charges a premium for all its models. This is like owning a high performance sports car and complaining about gas prices. 30K is full of units that are just not as good as other units.

Ultramarines have fantastic wargear for its characters- artificer armor that gives a 5+ FNP, and axe that is AP2, and one of the best Rites of War in the game. Their Primarch does more for the army that any other Primarch in the game. You have an excellent Rite of War that allows you to pick a rule every turn.

I've played against Ultramarines several times, and I've found them to be one of the most difficult armies to play against as they get to "change" rules every turn to their advantage. Great special characters, great wargear, great RoW... They are all around generalists. Other Legions focus on certain traits or aspects of the game (shooting, close combat, etc). Ultramarines get bonus across the board- leadership applies in all the phases of the game, they have a lesser shooting bonus, and they have a lesser close combat bonus, but its a bonus none the less.

It kinda sounds like you are wanting to play a certain style of army that the Ultramarines just can't match, much like making a shooty World Eaters list, or a close combat Iron Hands list, or a mechanized Imperial Fists list. Ultramarines are not bad. They just can't specialize like other Legions. Every meta is different, and you seem to fight against a lot of Imperial Fists and Iron Hands. My meta is Alpha Legion, Custodies, Ultramarines, Night Bearers, Salimanders, Thousand Sons, and my Sons of Horus. Out of all of them, I hate fighting the Ultramarines the most. I can't counter everything they can do.

*except for that one time with my Sons of Horus when a unit of World Eater Terminators failed a charge, and I used FURY OF THE LEGION on them shooting them 80 times.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
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 Tamwulf wrote:



Ultramarines have fantastic wargear for its characters- artificer armor that gives a 5+ FNP, and axe that is AP2, and one of the best Rites of War in the game. Their Primarch does more for the army that any other Primarch in the game. You have an excellent Rite of War that allows you to pick a rule every turn.

I've played against Ultramarines several times, and I've found them to be one of the most difficult armies to play against as they get to "change" rules every turn to their advantage. Great special characters, great wargear, great RoW... They are all around generalists. Other Legions focus on certain traits or aspects of the game (shooting, close combat, etc). Ultramarines get bonus across the board- leadership applies in all the phases of the game, they have a lesser shooting bonus, and they have a lesser close combat bonus, but its a bonus none the less.

It kinda sounds like you are wanting to play a certain style of army that the Ultramarines just can't match, much like making a shooty World Eaters list, or a close combat Iron Hands list, or a mechanized Imperial Fists list. Ultramarines are not bad. They just can't specialize like other Legions. Every meta is different, and you seem to fight against a lot of Imperial Fists and Iron Hands. My meta is Alpha Legion, Custodies, Ultramarines, Night Bearers, Salimanders, Thousand Sons, and my Sons of Horus. Out of all of them, I hate fighting the Ultramarines the most. I can't counter everything they can do.

*except for that one time with my Sons of Horus when a unit of World Eater Terminators failed a charge, and I used FURY OF THE LEGION on them shooting them 80 times.


@ Tamwulf

Works on bolters means that it works on most basic infantry. Plus, the main problem is that you don't need a second unit to paint the target with IF. Also IF get other synergies such as stone gauntlet which massively boost them.

My main point is that you're assuming that every unit has the luxury of being able to fire in a given turn. In practice, points limits, LOS blocking terrain, different range weapons and the risk of throwing shots away means this just isn't feasible. It assumes an ideal situation that does not exist. If you are on a board where your entire army is firing then you've not got the right terrain. HH needs LOS blocking terrain otherwise shooting armies will dismantle assault armies.

A plasma squad will erase terminators because its a plasma squad. The re-roll of a one might net you some kills. But again, you're assuming an ideal scenario in which your opponent has walked his block of Kata forward, you drop out of a rhino and plasma him with the combi bolter. In practice, he will have a storm eagle, he'll have killed supporting units and rhinos with his shooty units and will then charge. You can't rely on there being supporting units and your opponent is usually going for those big gun squads long before you get a chance to do anything like that.

If you take rhinos then you lose the points savings for taking big squads. I don't care if it costs 20 points, I should not be paying points for my legion rules. WE get chainaxes for free, why should I be paying to have a better chance of rerolling ones to wound? Also, you're assuming said rhino won't get blown up. If I am fighting another legion I can't prevent him from getting plus one BS on bolters or from having rage by killing his units. But you can prevent the ultramarines from having their special rule?

1 divided by 6 is 16%. So if you are hitting on a 2 instead of a 3 this means you are 16% more effective, all the time, with the gun which 70% of your units have.

If I have ran away that means I must have failed a leadership 8/9 test. Now, that means I probably lost the combat by 4, so half a squad. I also didn't magically get ran down by sweeping advance. Then, you get a chance to rally. So this is literally only going to matter in those bizarre situations where you get a 20 man blob charged by a dread, lose 2 men, fail leadership and then don't get sweeped. This is not a regular occurrence. Plus, a legion unit would probably rally anyway in that situation anyway. Again this is a rule that is very rarely going to matter. It doesn't matter if a handful of men are able to rally after I've lost my combats and had most of the squad killed to make them run away. This is not a good rule.

Its because I have an IF army and they are just outright better if every single way. Despite my Ultra army having some horrific heavy units to compensate for their joke infantry like Sicarans, Deredeos, Spartans etc my foot slogging IF army wins loads of battles. You have benefits in a challenge so you want to be in a challenge. Why would you voluntarily fail a morale check and risk getting sweeped? These aren't disadvantages.

Because I only have one squad of Invictari because they are £120 for ten. Converted sword breachers are much cheaper and I have 40 of them. If I wanted to pay to win I would just buy quad phosphex or a titan. Which if I wanted 50 invictari I might as well buy a reaver.

£12 per model is insanity, not a premium. They are ugly models. I am not wasting money on them and I should not be in position of having to max out one broken (and suspiciously cheap in points) unit in order for the army to be effective.

You can take Paragon blades for your Praetors. You can't give the axe to sergeants. This means its only useful for Centurions. Plus, I am paying points to compensate for stuff other legions get for free...

They are mediocre bonuses that you only get under very occasional circumstances. That CC rule never gets used because I'd be insane to charge two squads into one target. I want to be targeting as much of the enemy line as possible. If I land 2 Kataprhacti squads in the enemy gun line, yes I will charge both into one heavy support squad rather than both. Yes, if my opponent lands in front of my gun line, I will charge two tactical squads in rather than shoot him to death. The only circumstance this might come into effect is if you have an amazing game and your assault units are mopping up the back line; in which case you've already won the game. There is almost no circumstance in which you would want or need to put two units against one opponent. So no I disagree, these aren't bonuses at all. They took stubborn and furious charge to replace it with this garbage.

Well if this "Ultramarines army" is two sniping veteran squads in rhinos with a leviathan, quad phos and primus medicae kata in Spartan that has nothing to do with them being Ultra or any RoW. So I'd be willing to bet that his army is relying on the legion list.

FNP on one guy is not good.

Well Primarches are banned in my local club. But the two times I've used Gulli hes been murdered by Castellax, D weapon and dog piled by terminators after being shot to pieces. Usually because his Spartan and bodyguard gets deleted. So, I don't see how hes very useful. He has 5 attacks, hitting on a 3, most will miss. So hes only dropping a handful of guys a turn. He can give a few units tank hunters, which invalidates interlocking fire. Dorn has plus D3 on all combat res. Perturabo gives you furious charge. Horus can super deepstrike and is a monster in close combat. Gulliman doesn't buff the army and doesn't have anywhere near the killing power to justify costing as much as a Fellblade.

The RoW you are talking about stops you using deep strike and outflank. It also gives you BS2 snapshot, which isn't going to stop your heavy weapon squad when those ten terminators crash into it. Or counter attack, which won't let your sword breachers dent 2 plus armor. Plus it certainly doesn't compensate for Night Lords with jump packs always outnumbering you and getting bonuses to wound and hit all the time....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 16:14:54



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in us
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Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Working on Bolters though, means it really only has effectiveness against Infantry, you shoot at a tank and then what? You've wasted your BS5 shots. If the Ultras 'waste' their Boltguns on a tank you've just given your Heavy Weapons a better chance to hit and pin the vehicle. Or your Boltguns have given your special weapons a better chance to remove tougher infantry units. Re-rolling charges wouldnt only be good on offence, particularly if you charge with Tacs to tie up something for your heavy hitters to get there, but on the defense as well. A squad of yours got charged and survived the Combat? Well their reinforcements have a better chance to get in.

The Army has to be built and deployed to effectively synergize with itself, deploy units to cover each other in melee, to mark targets for each other. Plus I mean, every army has to pay points to use their Legion Rules, you don't get them unless you have the army on the field.

I think you are massively dismissing the importance of the Legatine Axe. Sure its ONLY gonna be used on Centurions, but how many other Legions have easy access to at initiative Ap2 on their Centurions?
   
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Eindhoven, Netherlands

While the Ultramarines have some nice upsides, their legion special rules are relatively poor. Also, don't forget that interlocking tactics only lets you re-roll to wound rolls, not to hit rolls.

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Right, my bad.
   
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Washington State

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Right, my bad.


Right. You don't like the Ultramarines rules. OK. Play another Legion, don't complain that your Legion sucks because you can't play them like Imperial Fists or Iron Hands. Imperial Fists and Iron Hands can't play like Ultramarines either.

16% better chance to hit with a bolter... than you still have to wound, and everything in 30K will get a save against. BS5 bolters are pretty meaningless.

If you want chainaxes for free, and a close combat Legion, play World Eaters. My SoH have to pay for chainaxes too. Oh, and you want meaningless wargear? Banestrike rounds that cost an insane amount and only work when you roll a six to wound.

Of course every scenario I listed was a "perfect scenario" because you are listing every scenario where is "ultimate failure", when the truth is, every game will fall somewhere in between.

If you are playing with enough terrain, how are all your Rhino's getting blown up all the time?

You can mitigate the chances of losing in close combat by taking Vexcilla's and a standard bearer. As I said before, you can just as easily win a close combat when you are charged as when you charge. The Dice Gawds are fickle.

I can't help you if you insist on taking a subpar unit (Breachers) over a much better unit (Invictari). You could have converted Invictari just like you converted your Sword Breachers- though why anyone would want to use such a unit in a competitive environment is beyond me. If it's for Rule of Cool- then awesome! Go for it. You also keep comparing your Sword Breachers which are a generic Breacher squad that can swap out Boltguns for power weapons to the Iron Fists unique and signature unit. Apples to oranges? I mean, the IF have a special character and an entire RoW that rewards the player for taking Warder units. Of course it's going to look bad when you take a non-signiture unit that has no special rules or RoW.

Ultramarines should be taking Consules anyways because of the "Command Structure" Rule or whatever they have. And giving them an AP 2 axe sets them above and beyond all the other Consuls except maybe the Champion who has an AP2 melee weapon already? Not sure on that one, my rule book isn't handy. Medicae with 2+/5++/5 FNP and an AP2 weapon? Sounds pretty good to me. /shrug What Legion gets an AP2 melee weapon for free?

Too bad your club bans Primarchs, as they are awesome and fun to play with. It sounds like the one time you did play with Guiliman in a Spartan and terminator Bodyguard, you fell into the classic trap. That unit was over 1,000 points right? And had the single biggest bullseye you can possible have. Of course your opponent was going to throw everything he had at it. Do you think he was just gonna let it drive across the board and then wipe out his own lines? Plus, you were facing Mechanicum, an army that, in my own personal opinion, doesn't belong in 30K.

I don't know what to say bud. You're obviously discouraged with Ultramarines, and think they are the worst army in 30K. I disagree, but you are emotionally and financially tied to it, and no matter what I say, your counter argument is "Someone else does it better". Do you see what you should do then? Play one of those other armies. You are showing how inflexible you are when it comes to army building, your local club has some peculiar rules, and it's pretty obvious that they are playing competitively and you are not. :( You can either change your army list and adapt to the meta you are playing in, or change your army to one that is more in line with what you think a Legion should be able to do. "Can't beat them, join them" is the best advice I can offer you in your situation.

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Tamwulf, I can't really help but think that's an incredibly narrow minded point of view.

Instead of saying "well, give up", why is it such a bad thing to promote improving a bad situation instead of giving up on it? I mean, imagine that situation in real life - "oh, I'm not happy with my job. Guess I'd better leave now, go back into education to get a whole new skill set, and get a new job".
That's simply not feasible, and could likewside be the same for someone with a large 30k army.

If your army sucked, and you wanted to fix it, would you take kindly to someone telling you either shut up or play something else? Probably not, yet that's what you're doing here.

Just saying "give up" is a bit insensitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 18:35:08



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Why would you ban Primarchs?

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Edited by Manchu

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 14:14:46


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 Tamwulf wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Right, my bad.


Right. You don't like the Ultramarines rules. OK. Play another Legion, don't complain that your Legion sucks because you can't play them like Imperial Fists or Iron Hands. Imperial Fists and Iron Hands can't play like Ultramarines either.

16% better chance to hit with a bolter... than you still have to wound, and everything in 30K will get a save against. BS5 bolters are pretty meaningless.

If you want chainaxes for free, and a close combat Legion, play World Eaters. My SoH have to pay for chainaxes too. Oh, and you want meaningless wargear? Banestrike rounds that cost an insane amount and only work when you roll a six to wound.

Of course every scenario I listed was a "perfect scenario" because you are listing every scenario where is "ultimate failure", when the truth is, every game will fall somewhere in between.

If you are playing with enough terrain, how are all your Rhino's getting blown up all the time?

You can mitigate the chances of losing in close combat by taking Vexcilla's and a standard bearer. As I said before, you can just as easily win a close combat when you are charged as when you charge. The Dice Gawds are fickle.

I can't help you if you insist on taking a subpar unit (Breachers) over a much better unit (Invictari). You could have converted Invictari just like you converted your Sword Breachers- though why anyone would want to use such a unit in a competitive environment is beyond me. If it's for Rule of Cool- then awesome! Go for it. You also keep comparing your Sword Breachers which are a generic Breacher squad that can swap out Boltguns for power weapons to the Iron Fists unique and signature unit. Apples to oranges? I mean, the IF have a special character and an entire RoW that rewards the player for taking Warder units. Of course it's going to look bad when you take a non-signiture unit that has no special rules or RoW.

Ultramarines should be taking Consules anyways because of the "Command Structure" Rule or whatever they have. And giving them an AP 2 axe sets them above and beyond all the other Consuls except maybe the Champion who has an AP2 melee weapon already? Not sure on that one, my rule book isn't handy. Medicae with 2+/5++/5 FNP and an AP2 weapon? Sounds pretty good to me. /shrug What Legion gets an AP2 melee weapon for free?

Too bad your club bans Primarchs, as they are awesome and fun to play with. It sounds like the one time you did play with Guiliman in a Spartan and terminator Bodyguard, you fell into the classic trap. That unit was over 1,000 points right? And had the single biggest bullseye you can possible have. Of course your opponent was going to throw everything he had at it. Do you think he was just gonna let it drive across the board and then wipe out his own lines? Plus, you were facing Mechanicum, an army that, in my own personal opinion, doesn't belong in 30K.

I don't know what to say bud. You're obviously discouraged with Ultramarines, and think they are the worst army in 30K. I disagree, but you are emotionally and financially tied to it, and no matter what I say, your counter argument is "Someone else does it better". Do you see what you should do then? Play one of those other armies. You are showing how inflexible you are when it comes to army building, your local club has some peculiar rules, and it's pretty obvious that they are playing competitively and you are not. :( You can either change your army list and adapt to the meta you are playing in, or change your army to one that is more in line with what you think a Legion should be able to do. "Can't beat them, join them" is the best advice I can offer you in your situation.


Not sure why you quoted me on that Tam, unless you were going for my other post.

I am not certain that TW wants a discussion on the matter, his mind is made up and it seems like he might just want confirmation of his thoughts.

Even with it 'just' being rerolling to wound, its like having Shred on all his weapons.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/28 14:15:01


 
   
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England: Newcastle

 Tamwulf wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Right, my bad.


Right. You don't like the Ultramarines rules. OK. Play another Legion, don't complain that your Legion sucks because you can't play them like Imperial Fists or Iron Hands. Imperial Fists and Iron Hands can't play like Ultramarines either.

16% better chance to hit with a bolter... than you still have to wound, and everything in 30K will get a save against. BS5 bolters are pretty meaningless.

If you want chainaxes for free, and a close combat Legion, play World Eaters. My SoH have to pay for chainaxes too. Oh, and you want meaningless wargear? Banestrike rounds that cost an insane amount and only work when you roll a six to wound.

Of course every scenario I listed was a "perfect scenario" because you are listing every scenario where is "ultimate failure", when the truth is, every game will fall somewhere in between.

If you are playing with enough terrain, how are all your Rhino's getting blown up all the time?

You can mitigate the chances of losing in close combat by taking Vexcilla's and a standard bearer. As I said before, you can just as easily win a close combat when you are charged as when you charge. The Dice Gawds are fickle.

I can't help you if you insist on taking a subpar unit (Breachers) over a much better unit (Invictari). You could have converted Invictari just like you converted your Sword Breachers- though why anyone would want to use such a unit in a competitive environment is beyond me. If it's for Rule of Cool- then awesome! Go for it. You also keep comparing your Sword Breachers which are a generic Breacher squad that can swap out Boltguns for power weapons to the Iron Fists unique and signature unit. Apples to oranges? I mean, the IF have a special character and an entire RoW that rewards the player for taking Warder units. Of course it's going to look bad when you take a non-signiture unit that has no special rules or RoW.

Ultramarines should be taking Consules anyways because of the "Command Structure" Rule or whatever they have. And giving them an AP 2 axe sets them above and beyond all the other Consuls except maybe the Champion who has an AP2 melee weapon already? Not sure on that one, my rule book isn't handy. Medicae with 2+/5++/5 FNP and an AP2 weapon? Sounds pretty good to me. /shrug What Legion gets an AP2 melee weapon for free?

Too bad your club bans Primarchs, as they are awesome and fun to play with. It sounds like the one time you did play with Guiliman in a Spartan and terminator Bodyguard, you fell into the classic trap. That unit was over 1,000 points right? And had the single biggest bullseye you can possible have. Of course your opponent was going to throw everything he had at it. Do you think he was just gonna let it drive across the board and then wipe out his own lines? Plus, you were facing Mechanicum, an army that, in my own personal opinion, doesn't belong in 30K.

I don't know what to say bud. You're obviously discouraged with Ultramarines, and think they are the worst army in 30K. I disagree, but you are emotionally and financially tied to it, and no matter what I say, your counter argument is "Someone else does it better". Do you see what you should do then? Play one of those other armies. You are showing how inflexible you are when it comes to army building, your local club has some peculiar rules, and it's pretty obvious that they are playing competitively and you are not. :( You can either change your army list and adapt to the meta you are playing in, or change your army to one that is more in line with what you think a Legion should be able to do. "Can't beat them, join them" is the best advice I can offer you in your situation.


I have two other Legions, they're both much better and I win more games with them.

How is taking lots of infantry with sword breachers not taking an Ultramarines list? My point is that I cannot take a fluffy Ultramarines list. If I had wanted to crank out a dirt sniping veterans in rhino (all two of them so you can max your points on cool stuff) with quad phospex and primus medicae nonsense I would have done that. My point is that a fluffy Ultramarines list is incredibly weak.

Those BS5 bolters are there to wear the enemy down whilst the rest of your T5 infantry with Sigismund pushes forward with your Leviathan Dread. It works.

I hate the idea of painting white and my next legion is going to be Sons of Horus.

The truth is I've played 15 or so games with the Ultra and that close combat rule has never come into effect. That I can probably count on both hands the number of models that have died because of that interlocking fire rule. This is in lists which have 20 volkite rifles for precisely the purpose of going with that.

I don't you're appreciating that my units die in droves whenever I play this game. A vex or standard does not change that. How does that stop a terror squad in a Dreadclaw volkiting one squad and then butchering the remainder in close combat? In fact, I actually passed the morale check, which meant they were shielded by my guys and I wasn't able to shoot them. Even though I actually wanted that unit gone so I could fury the Terror Squad with my adjacent squad. Which, again, I had deployed together so they could specifically support eachother for this OP interlocking tactics, did nothing to stop one squad of Night Lords dismantling both squads easily.

Because I have the Land Raiders to fully mechanise it. So I didn't take Rhinos and I wanted bodies since that's the Ultramarine thing to do. With the Land Raider army list I used, one was against Death Guard with quad guns and two heavy weapon squads; which was lovely. The other was against a guy whose Mortis kept one shotting my tanks turn after turn whilst my stuff bounced off his stuff.

I don't see why Forgeworld didn't give the Ultramarines a Breacher focused RoW since they have unique kits, spell out in the lore and black library novels that they make extensive use of them and yet are forced to pay points to lose their bolters for a butterknife that they don't know how to use.

To take the RoW you have to take a Master of Signals. So really only one guy can take crazy axe. One guy can't win an entire combat. Explain to me how this will swing a combat with a Night Lords Raptor Squad with chainglaives?

Because Invictari have models. You would get salty looks if you tried to proxy them. My Ultra are converted mark 4 breachers, so they don't break the rules. In friendly games I have used them as Invictari, but that doesn't help you in an ambush mission against Iron Warriors who have a D weapon.

It was Iron Warriors with a block of five Castellax with the HQ guy. First game he was on foot and his bodyguard got deleted by shooting and then he got stomped by the Castellax. Game 2 he got D weaponed. Game 3 his Spartan got immobilised on turn 1 in an ambush mission so he had to get out. They actually killed the Castellax since they got a charge but then the unit got shot to pieces and assaulted by terminators.

I have other armies. I am salty because whenever I use this (very large and very expensive army I spent a long time painting) gets wrecked every time I use it. As in, EVERY, infantry unit that is not Invictari underperforms and gets wrecked. The plan is to do an Armatura Campaign and I am not looking forward to however weeks of being thoroughly smashed. Whenever I play I game with it and I am sat there whilst the Night Lord or whoever are spooling off the broken special rules, re roll ones, D3 attacks on the charge, they have where they're hitting on 2 and wounding on 2 I am left wondering why my Legion is rubbish and his is awesome.

I mean I tell you now, Amatura will not work because:

1) Even modest shooting will wipe out those 40 sword breachers or cripple their ability to fight back.
2) They will be outnumbered 3:1 by WE
3) WE infantry are better in every single way



Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Why would you ban Primarchs?


Ban is the wrong word. You get a lot of grief for taking certain units. I got a few salty remarks for taking a Deredeo for example by the Night Lords player because he thought would one shot his plains (with its autocannons) and in the event it didn't remotely stop his aerial assault with two Storm Eagles dropping Sevatar n co off.

Basically this is the list of things you are encouraged to avoid:

* Primarches
* Lords of War (more so than Primarches)
* Special Characters
* Quad Guns
* Sniping veterans
* Pride of the Legion
* Primus Medicae
* Putting 10 Terminators in a Spartan
* Chaplains
* Psykers
* Apothecaries
* Basically any sort of buff unit
* Artifacer armor on sergeants
* Paragon blade Praetor

The reasons range from, "its cheesy", "its not fluffy", "everyone does it", "all heresy armies are the same" etc etc ad nauseum. Some of this they do make exceptions for. The Death Guard player gets away with taking Quad Guns with phosphex for example. The Raven Guard player gets away with sniping veterans. Plus you can take LoW or special characters as long as you agree with your opponent beforehand.

I mean in a tournament I was brow beaten out of taking a Fellblade even though the tournament rules for that event allowed it. But you know, that guy didn't have one and I was the only one with a mega tank so everyone was like "oh no" so I just didn't take it because I can't be bothered with that.

The issue they take with Primarches is that they're broken and shouldn't be used in a normal game. That they basically unbalance the game like other Lords of War.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 20:56:13



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Basically this is the list of things you are encouraged to avoid:


Your local meta sounds absolutely terrible.
   
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Why not make use of the deredeos ability to enhance your breachers invulns?

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agurus1 wrote:
Why not make use of the deredeos ability to enhance your breachers invulns?


That upgrade has a specific model for it which is going to be released in a few months. They previewed it at a weekender. So mine is modelled wrongly to use that upgrade since it replaces the missiles on the back.

Plus a 5 plus invul in shooting won't be enough, nor would apothecaries and theres a huge question of diminishing (read non-existent) returns if I do this. 4 up in CC is good. But it would be getting them into combat that would be the issue. Plus my Deredeo is an AA unit which needs to be stationary to counter (or supposed to at any rate) stop players liberally dropping guys out of planes in front of my gunline.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

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4000pts Fists Legion
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III Legion 5000pts
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Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Ban is the wrong word. You get a lot of grief for taking certain units. I got a few salty remarks for taking a Deredeo for example by the Night Lords player because he thought would one shot his plains (with its autocannons) and in the event it didn't remotely stop his aerial assault with two Storm Eagles dropping Sevatar n co off.

Basically this is the list of things you are encouraged to avoid:

* Primarches
* Lords of War (more so than Primarches)
* Special Characters
* Quad Guns
* Sniping veterans
* Pride of the Legion
* Primus Medicae
* Putting 10 Terminators in a Spartan
* Chaplains
* Psykers
* Apothecaries
* Basically any sort of buff unit
* Artifacer armor on sergeants
* Paragon blade Praetor

The reasons range from, "its cheesy", "its not fluffy", "everyone does it", "all heresy armies are the same" etc etc ad nauseum. Some of this they do make exceptions for. The Death Guard player gets away with taking Quad Guns with phosphex for example. The Raven Guard player gets away with sniping veterans. Plus you can take LoW or special characters as long as you agree with your opponent beforehand.

I mean in a tournament I was brow beaten out of taking a Fellblade even though the tournament rules for that event allowed it. But you know, that guy didn't have one and I was the only one with a mega tank so everyone was like "oh no" so I just didn't take it because I can't be bothered with that.

The issue they take with Primarches is that they're broken and shouldn't be used in a normal game. That they basically unbalance the game like other Lords of War.


Im sorry but that sounds like an awful community to play it, just straight up. Clearly others think the same in your own community if the provided example player you give uses Sevatar, a special Character.
   
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Holy god your group sounds like a bunch of cry babies.

"I was never a Son of Horus. I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a loyal servant of the Emperor."

Recasts are like Fight Cub. No one talks about it, but more people do it then you realize.



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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
As a Dark Angel player, most of my rules sit in wargear that requires points investment to get ahold of. Unless of course you count occasionally hitting on 3s in close combat, and giving more points to my opponent if I don't kill their stuff hard enough.

Also, must be nice to have Legion specific units to critique.


You get plus 1 to hit with all swords. That includes close combat weapons since they are swords. So, the vast bulk of your basic infantry. So you should be hitting with 3s most of the time. This means you are hitting with a paragon blade on a 2 most times. Gulliman can't hit basic marines on a 2.

You also get a plus 1 str power sword for sergeants (my club has basically banned artificer sergeants so this is awesome) so you can chew through infantry. I can only get the Legatine Axe for Independent Characters.

I've had full EC units gets the charge and lose more men because of both these rules.

These are solid rules that confer some big advantages.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Poor Dark Angels. You get Frost Swords for free upgrades. I pay extra and get saddled with Specialist.

I have to pay a hq tax that's way more than everyone else and generally get terrible unique units. Everyone can complain.


Yeah but Wolves get some crazy bonuses and they have synergy.

You get counter attack and plus 1 WS on the charge. Which means you can overwatch and be no worse off. So you always get extra WS on the first round of combat.

Your basic infantry can run and charge. This is madness.

Some of your rites of war hand out army wide special rules which further boost this CC potential with very few limitations. If I take Logus for the army wide rules I am actually unable to deploy anything via deepstrike or infiltrate, which actually bans me from using one of my unique legion units who get a modest shooting bonus when they first land in deep strike.


We get +1 to hit with all swords if have the SAME WS as the target we are hitting, so no hitting on 2+

We get +1 str power swords for 10pts, not free, if a unit already has a power sword, you can swap it for free.

The +1 to hit is pretty situational as against normal units its a nice little extra, worthless against dedicated CC units and the Praetor only gets to use it if he is in combat with something WS6, so its kinda meh.
   
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Agreed on the group thing, I'd hate to play in an environment like that, but if OP can't go elsewhere, it's a bit pointless mentioning this.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tamwulf, I can't really help but think that's an incredibly narrow minded point of view.

Instead of saying "well, give up", why is it such a bad thing to promote improving a bad situation instead of giving up on it? I mean, imagine that situation in real life - "oh, I'm not happy with my job. Guess I'd better leave now, go back into education to get a whole new skill set, and get a new job".
That's simply not feasible, and could likewside be the same for someone with a large 30k army.

If your army sucked, and you wanted to fix it, would you take kindly to someone telling you either shut up or play something else? Probably not, yet that's what you're doing here.

Just saying "give up" is a bit insensitive.


I tried to point out that Ultramarines don't suck, and the OP broke it down again, and as a matter of fact, has stated three times in a very detailed manner why they suck. I'm not going to try and convince the OP beyond that. As far as the OP is concerned, the Ultramarines suck and there is nothing we can say or do to change his mind. The OP hasn't asked for help, hasn't posted an army list for critique, and doesn't seem too keen on changing his/her mind about the Ultramarines. If the OP feels that strongly on the subject, what do you think the OP should do?

To be fair, I thought the Sons of Horus sucked about a year ago, and wrote a very similar post to this one. I took a break for about six months, started playing Age of Sigmar instead, then came back to 30K, and ya know what? My views on the army changed and so did I. I started playing a different style list, tweeked a few things here and there, and suddenly, all my old arguments just... felt empty and petty. Now, I'm pretty happy with my Sons of Horus.

And then Forge World had to come out with the Primarch Dorn model, and well, at Adepticon, I spent $$$ and now have the makings of an Imperial Fists army using a lot of Sword Brethren. I'm not a fan of Breecher squads or Warder squads, but I did pick up enough bits to make a squad of each. So we'll see how it goes. I'm all about the Rule of Cool, and win or lose, as long as my army looks cool doing it, then I'm OK with it. At the end of the day, it's a game of little toy soldiers, and it's really hard for me to get worked up about it anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Not sure why you quoted me on that Tam, unless you were going for my other post.

I am not certain that TW wants a discussion on the matter, his mind is made up and it seems like he might just want confirmation of his thoughts.

Even with it 'just' being rerolling to wound, its like having Shred on all his weapons.



Sorry, I'm an idiot and thought you were the OP? I'm getting senile in my old age, or more probable, lack of sleep and hung over from Adepticon is catching up to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 22:15:54


Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
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Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Tamwulf wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tamwulf, I can't really help but think that's an incredibly narrow minded point of view.

Instead of saying "well, give up", why is it such a bad thing to promote improving a bad situation instead of giving up on it? I mean, imagine that situation in real life - "oh, I'm not happy with my job. Guess I'd better leave now, go back into education to get a whole new skill set, and get a new job".
That's simply not feasible, and could likewside be the same for someone with a large 30k army.

If your army sucked, and you wanted to fix it, would you take kindly to someone telling you either shut up or play something else? Probably not, yet that's what you're doing here.

Just saying "give up" is a bit insensitive.


I tried to point out that Ultramarines don't suck, and the OP broke it down again, and as a matter of fact, has stated three times in a very detailed manner why they suck. I'm not going to try and convince the OP beyond that. As far as the OP is concerned, the Ultramarines suck and there is nothing we can say or do to change his mind. The OP hasn't asked for help, hasn't posted an army list for critique, and doesn't seem too keen on changing his/her mind about the Ultramarines. If the OP feels that strongly on the subject, what do you think the OP should do?

To be fair, I thought the Sons of Horus sucked about a year ago, and wrote a very similar post to this one. I took a break for about six months, started playing Age of Sigmar instead, then came back to 30K, and ya know what? My views on the army changed and so did I. I started playing a different style list, tweeked a few things here and there, and suddenly, all my old arguments just... felt empty and petty. Now, I'm pretty happy with my Sons of Horus.

And then Forge World had to come out with the Primarch Dorn model, and well, at Adepticon, I spent $$$ and now have the makings of an Imperial Fists army using a lot of Sword Brethren. I'm not a fan of Breecher squads or Warder squads, but I did pick up enough bits to make a squad of each. So we'll see how it goes. I'm all about the Rule of Cool, and win or lose, as long as my army looks cool doing it, then I'm OK with it. At the end of the day, it's a game of little toy soldiers, and it's really hard for me to get worked up about it anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Not sure why you quoted me on that Tam, unless you were going for my other post.

I am not certain that TW wants a discussion on the matter, his mind is made up and it seems like he might just want confirmation of his thoughts.

Even with it 'just' being rerolling to wound, its like having Shred on all his weapons.



Sorry, I'm an idiot and thought you were the OP? I'm getting senile in my old age, or more probable, lack of sleep and hung over from Adepticon is catching up to me.


It happens, Adpeticon Hangover is a good excuse. 100% agree with the first part of your post about how it seems like OP is just voicing his displeasure.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
agurus1 wrote:
Why not make use of the deredeos ability to enhance your breachers invulns?


That upgrade has a specific model for it which is going to be released in a few months. They previewed it at a weekender. So mine is modelled wrongly to use that upgrade since it replaces the missiles on the back.


It shouldn't be too difficult to convert a widget to represent the Atomantic pavaise in the meantime.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Well okay, heres the list I brought for a tournament that we ran. It lost two games and won 1. This was against Bob with two Betrayal of Calth boxes with some 40k vehicles. Bob doesn't count.

Praetor with Paragon with 9 Invictari in a Phobos Land Raider

10 sword breachers, fist, Phobos Land Raider

10 Sword Breachers, fist, Phobos Land raider

Deredeo with auto and missiles

Sicaran Venator

Sicaran Arcus

3 Contemptor Dreads in a talon. All with power fist. One assault cannon. One lascannon. One autocannon. This talon could have been exchanged for a Fellblade with legion crew.



This is an attempt to keep the army fluffy whilst taking as few actual Ultramarines as possible because I had decided that the Legion was terrible and I would be at a disadvantage if I fielded infantry. It followed a horrendous experience in which a Death Guard player killed a whole company (I am not remotely exaggerating there were 100 dead Ultramarines and 20ish Death Guard died) with quad phos and sure enough I ended up against him in the tournament. However it was lengthways deployment, in a city board with lots of craters and he had a clear avenue to shoot me with two heavy weapons squads and his quad guns with shatter shells. That was not remotely fun. A handful of breachers managed to get to his line and the invictari, by the time they got through the ruins to the main Death Guard strong point the game was over and there was an army in front of them.

Another game a Salamanders player took jetbikes and melted the arcus and zapped one of the breacher teams and LR. His Mortis also kept sniping my dreads and got the venator. This shoot out basically left me with the enviable choice of sending my Invictari against his entire battleline since I had to have one squad holding the objective. At that point I pretty much just let the rest of the game play out and shot with lascannons for a few turns. Theres no point fighting 10 Kataprachti and a command squad with an eternal warrior Praetor and the help; if you only have 10 invictari.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact lets throw in a list which actually won, although this was before Ultra got their rules....

Praetor with Paragon blade with tacticals

Master of Signals

3 x 20 tacticals with fist

Plasma squadron with lascannon sponsons

5 man Lascannon Squad

Legion Fellblade

3 x contemptor. One las, one auto, one assault. All with fist.






This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 23:14:44



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





United States

Tbh regular land raiders aren't really up to snuff in the 30k environment. Spartans are king because the flare shield really ups their survivability and therefore their ability to get across the table and deliver your Killy dudesmen. A flareshield means that quad mortars can't touch you.

Also your matchups are going to be a major part of how you fair in a game. And to be fair, it seems like some of your opponents are playing much more competitive lists vs your more thematic ultra list. Perhaps having a discussion with them prior to the game and expressing what you want from the game (a chance at victory over being curb stomped) might help. For instance asking the Deathguard player before a friendly game to leave the phosphex mortars as home would. E a good idea. Your infantry heavy list won't stand a chance vs phosphex quad mortars and that just makes an unenjoyable game. Also, terrain, terrain, terrain. Seriously start using an uncomfortably large amount of terrain especially LoS blocking terrain. More is better and you can always go big at first and tone down later. I'm surprised sometimes how some groups say they use a proper amount of terrain, and the tables still look like a mown lawn.

Infantry lists can work. Heck I brought an infantry heavy Army of Dark Compliance to LVO and was happy with my performance. 1 milita force commander, 3 milita medics, 70 T3 bodies, and a siege breaker, master of signal and 10 Tyrant terminators, 2 cortus, 1 deredeo, 2 laser rapiers and 3 milita Medusas.

Also ultras don't suck. They don't have the most OP legion traits but they aren't useless. Heck leadership boosts alone are golden in Age of Darkness. My Iron Warriors would kill for interlocking tactics personally, instead of all my grenades getting "wrecker" special rule. Wtf is that lol. I remember being dissatisfied with my Legions treats when they first dropped, but I learned to work with them and appreciate them. Keep experimenting and don't lose hope. I would add some Fulmentarus to supplement your long range firepower, and even the Damocles rhino. That thing is dope and fluffy as hell for your legion (heck they invented it, and it doesn't even take up an HQ slot for you I believe).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 01:59:46


13th Stor-Bezashk and Ezurum Fusiliers - Army of Dark Compliance Plog -

SoCal Open Horus Heresy Narrative Event FB Page

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Tamwulf wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Right, my bad.



Basically this is the list of things you are encouraged to avoid:

* Primarches
* Lords of War (more so than Primarches)
* Special Characters
* Quad Guns
* Sniping veterans
* Pride of the Legion
* Primus Medicae
* Putting 10 Terminators in a Spartan
* Chaplains
* Psykers
* Apothecaries
* Basically any sort of buff unit
* Artifacer armor on sergeants
* Paragon blade Praetor

The reasons range from, "its cheesy", "its not fluffy", "everyone does it", "all heresy armies are the same" etc etc ad nauseum. Some of this they do make exceptions for. The Death Guard player gets away with taking Quad Guns with phosphex for example. The Raven Guard player gets away with sniping veterans. Plus you can take LoW or special characters as long as you agree with your opponent beforehand.

I mean in a tournament I was brow beaten out of taking a Fellblade even though the tournament rules for that event allowed it. But you know, that guy didn't have one and I was the only one with a mega tank so everyone was like "oh no" so I just didn't take it because I can't be bothered with that.

The issue they take with Primarches is that they're broken and shouldn't be used in a normal game. That they basically unbalance the game like other Lords of War.



This sounds MUCH more a problem with your local meta and the terrible attitude it has towards the game. Are you all turning up to 3k games with just tactical marines?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 08:14:36


A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

The board we use has lots of LoS blocking terrain. It almost always to my
Disadvantage since it means can't fire my army at his whilst he can shoot mine. You get vicious choke points. Your army gets slowed down by area cover. When we play on the normal 6 x 4 boards with a load of craters I kill more stuff.

Iron Warriors can't be routed by shooting. That's amazing.

You can't have that conversation. They believe they have balanced and fluffy armies. They would see it as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage.

Plus in a lot of cases i run out of heavy support slots. I can't take two heavy squads, Deredeo, both Sicarans and the plasma press even if I had the points to do so. At 4K you are basically forced to buy elites and troops which puts me at a disadvantage since Ultra infantry are rubbish. What is the point of spending 280 points on a tax Squad. It will never make its points back, it Contributes nothing to the army.



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






I just mean the fact you can't take SO much stuff, why play Horus Heresy if you can't use all of the cool stuff from the books we read and love?

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
 
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