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Made in gb
Norn Queen






Astartes Built: Weapons that attack a unit with this rule decrease their AP Characteristic by 1, to a maximum of 0 (e.g. an AP of -1 becomes 0, an AP of -2 becomes -1.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 09:05:38


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






No. Marines are supposed to be resistant to small arms fire, their armor shouldn't protect them against the heaviest guns. Getting even a 6+ save against a titan-scale weapon is absurd.

A better option, if you want to improve their durability, would be to give them a +1 save bonus against weapons with STR 4 or less. Now you get a 2+ armor save against the hordes of flashlight-armed cannon fodder, but heavy weapons still kill marines.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Of course it should effect all Power /Terminator Armour users including Chaos Marines, Inquisitors, Sisters, Sisters of Silence..........

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Mr Morden wrote:
Of course it should effect all Power /Terminator Armour users including Chaos Marines, Inquisitors, Sisters, Sisters of Silence..........


How are Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors or, Sisters of Silence "Astartes-built" exactly?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Of course it should effect all Power /Terminator Armour users including Chaos Marines, Inquisitors, Sisters, Sisters of Silence..........


How are Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors or, Sisters of Silence "Astartes-built" exactly?


I did not realise the name mattered as much as the rule as it seems to be a boost for power armour/terminator armour - although i guess it also effects Dreadnoughts, Centurions etc as currently not specfiying what this rule is for

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Only Power Armoured and Terminator Armoured ASTARTES (of any flavour) would get the rule.

Non-ASTARTES models wouldn't get the rule.

This isn't meant to be a blanket affect all models rule, it's meant to be a rule found on specific datasheets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 12:25:09


 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Hrm....I think it'd be something to check out in a min play test. but I can get onboard with the concept. Power armor right now just doesn't feel *right*

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Only Power Armoured and Terminator Armoured ASTARTES (of any flavour) would get the rule.

Non-ASTARTES models wouldn't get the rule.

This isn't meant to be a blanket affect all models rule, it's meant to be a rule found on specific datasheets.


Despite the fact that other power armour users get the same protection from the armour - wierd.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Mr Morden wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Only Power Armoured and Terminator Armoured ASTARTES (of any flavour) would get the rule.

Non-ASTARTES models wouldn't get the rule.

This isn't meant to be a blanket affect all models rule, it's meant to be a rule found on specific datasheets.


Despite the fact that other power armour users get the same protection from the armour - wierd.


But they don't get the combined protection of Astartes physiology and Power Armour, or the Black Carapace. It's easily fluffed as the whole being more than the sum of its parts.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Only Power Armoured and Terminator Armoured ASTARTES (of any flavour) would get the rule.

Non-ASTARTES models wouldn't get the rule.

This isn't meant to be a blanket affect all models rule, it's meant to be a rule found on specific datasheets.


Despite the fact that other power armour users get the same protection from the armour - wierd.


But they don't get the combined protection of Astartes physiology and Power Armour, or the Black Carapace. It's easily fluffed as the whole being more than the sum of its parts.


Thats why Marines have Toughness 4 isn't it? And Custodes - they don't get because?

I don't see why it can't be extended to other power armour users - the rule makes sense - the bias implementation does not.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Just because it's already represented as T4 doesn't mean it can't be used for this too.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just because it's already represented as T4 doesn't mean it can't be used for this too.


No reason why it should either. or if it does it does not work with Custodes, Centurions etc

Still not said why it would be broken for non marines to have it?



I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

It wouldn't be broken, but the point is to give Marines a durability boost. Do Sisters need it when they're already better?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




Amusingly this simply solidifies lasguns as the best things to kill marines with.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






When a unit with this rule is attacked by weapons with AP characteristic of 0, add 1 to saving throws made by this unit.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 skchsan wrote:
When a unit with this rule is attacked by weapons with AP characteristic of 0, add 1 to saving throws made by this unit.
I like it!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'd rather this be a Strategem where they make the armor go overboard or something. I dunno. I do like the Lucius trait as a potential one for a Marine Chapter, but as a regular thing they get...nah. The problem is offense, mostly.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Marines need to get out of the grey area of suck. Ether let them be monsters or turn them into power armor hordes. Bonuses that work vs one thing DO NOT help in this game. Oh half the armies in the game are going to be immune to str 4 weapons? Guess I won't take any of those.

The nature of power armor sucking is a result that paying more points for something that can have all of it's strengths nulified by -ap reduces your durability per point - not increases it. Marines just need to flat out increase their armor save by 1 against any weapon that doesn't double their toughness (all astartes infantry) call the rule - "black carapace".

So plasma will still wreck marines - as it should.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 14:50:25


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines need to get out of the grey area of suck. Ether let them be monsters or turn them into power armor hordes. Bonuses that work vs one thing DO NOT help in this game. Oh half the armies in the game are going to be immune to str 4 weapons? Guess I won't take any of those.

The nature of power armor sucking is a result that paying more points for something that can have all of it's strengths nulified by -ap reduces your durability per point - not increases it. Marines just need to flat out increase their armor save by 1 against any weapon that doesn't double their toughness (all astartes infantry) call the rule - "black carapace".

So plasma will still wreck marines - as it should.

I've actually got some ideas on how to fix parts of the codex. If I get next to a computer I'll post them. I think there is at least a good base, but a lot needs to be actually fixed, so to speak.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Astartes Built: Weapons that attack a unit with this rule decrease their AP Characteristic by 1, to a maximum of 0 (e.g. an AP of -1 becomes 0, an AP of -2 becomes -1.)


I don't thinking making marines mini-custodes (2+ armor save) really addresses any of their problems. A few models need point rebalancing and the old school boltguns probably need a boost, but there really isn't a reason to give them +1 to their armor save and then get surprised when the lack of invul save gets them killed anyway.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

What about perhaps having weapons without an AP in their profile being at a -1 to wound rather than manipulating the armor value?

That'd make lasguns wound on 6's, most other basic infantry on 5's

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Peregrine wrote:

A better option, if you want to improve their durability, would be to give them a +1 save bonus against weapons with STR 4 or less. Now you get a 2+ armor save against the hordes of flashlight-armed cannon fodder, but heavy weapons still kill marines.


What about hotshot weapons?

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 BaconCatBug wrote:
Astartes Built: Weapons that attack a unit with this rule decrease their AP Characteristic by 1, to a maximum of 0 (e.g. an AP of -1 becomes 0, an AP of -2 becomes -1.)


.....sure, as long as rubrics also get this ability that way my rubrics get astarties built so I get to ignore rend of one, and it only cauases 1 damage? Cool +1 to my save.

My rubrics get a 3+ on plasma shots thanks lol.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Backspacehacker wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Astartes Built: Weapons that attack a unit with this rule decrease their AP Characteristic by 1, to a maximum of 0 (e.g. an AP of -1 becomes 0, an AP of -2 becomes -1.)


.....sure, as long as rubrics also get this ability that way my rubrics get astarties built so I get to ignore rend of one, and it only cauases 1 damage? Cool +1 to my save.

My rubrics get a 3+ on plasma shots thanks lol.

This would apply to all choas PA as well. I think Rubrics used to have a 4++ save rerolling saves of 1. Pretty much the same. Being a PA unit should not mean that you automatically have to suck.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






We still do have a 4++ on rubrics, if you hit them with rend -4 but only 1 damage it ups their invul save from 5 to 4


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to add all of them sons lost their reroll invul saves rip Magnus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 15:29:21


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I realize 3+ power armour is kind of a sacred cow for 40k. But TBH, I kind of like a flat +1 to armour saves for all power armor and Terminator armor (with a 1 not being an auto fail). Gives a counter to hoard spam banking on weight of dice to punch above their weight. It also gives us a nice reason to consider melta vs plasma.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





I was thinking something similar to this, but only on Terminators, and limiting it to AP-1 and AP-2 weapons. So your save against AP-1 is 2+, AP-2 is 3+, AP-3 (the original Terminator killer) is 5+.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

SonofSlamguinius wrote:
I realize 3+ power armour is kind of a sacred cow for 40k. But TBH, I kind of like a flat +1 to armour saves for all power armor and Terminator armor (with a 1 not being an auto fail). Gives a counter to hoard spam banking on weight of dice to punch above their weight. It also gives us a nice reason to consider melta vs plasma.


And completely and utterly screws over anyone without an AP value. This was recommended in another thread, and it (specifically NOT failing on 1s with a 1+ armor save, not anything else) is a horrible idea.

Marines would be unkilable by anything without an AP value in cover.
Terminators would be unkillable to even AP-1 guns while in cover.

A 1+ save is fine (essentially negating the first point of AP), not failing on 1s is NOT.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 JNAProductions wrote:

And completely and utterly screws over anyone without an AP value.


Who does not have an AP value?
**Edit** I mean, which armies do not have AP values? I'm well aware that there are a number of units without AP values.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 01:24:07


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

SonofSlamguinius wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

And completely and utterly screws over anyone without an AP value.


Who does not have an AP value?
**Edit** I mean, which armies do not have AP values? I'm well aware that there are a number of units without AP values.


Nurgle Daemons completely lack AP outside of HQs, which either 1) don't want to be in CC with Terminators, since they'll do a little damage, then get pasted, or 2) are GUOs, which suck and get focus fired down very quickly.

That's the only entire army I can name off-hand that lacks AP if you stay in-theme, but there's probably a good deal of army builds that lack large amounts of AP, making it easy to focus down what DOES have AP and would therefore render the Terminators completely immortal.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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