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So let's talk commission painter etiquette and standards. Curious to see where the hobby stands on this as a whole. No names shall be named in this post.

There is a local commissioned painter - with a store sponsoring him, a patreon and youtube channel and advertising - who has recently posted several very sub-par miniatures - we're talking chalky airbrushing, mold lines clearly visible, details missed or splodged over, visible differences in painting quality (i.e. Carapace on a Knight done with airbrushing and NMM, legs with a metal basecoat and patchy wash), visible seams, sprue spurs visible from clipping...the works. And as a result a number of his followers have openly come out and criticised the quality of his work.

Not trolling - not DURR HURR YOU SUCK - but every comment is more along the lines of - you can do better, it's looking really rushed, you need to do 100% if you're going to do this as a business mate.

To which his responses have been...as follows:

- To tar and feather every criticism as 'trolls and haters'.
- To delete posts criticising him without a single word explaining anything.
- To publically whine about people criticising him, despite people trying to explain that he will NOT improve surrounding himself with sycophants.
- The 'shoddy' work wasn't professional work, it was 'for a friend' (To be honest if I was that friend I'd be PISSED that he thought so little of me to give something he clearly didn't give a damn about doing as a gift).

So time to see what the hobby WANTS and EXPECTS from a commissioned painter.

My personal view? Any miniatures you post on your commission page/youtube/patreon should be at 100% your standard. No excuses. No 'oh, it's my own personal work' or 'it's a gift' or 'it's a side project'. If you want to do that have a seperate blog in your name and post that sort of stuff there.

I see a commission page/youtube/etc as being a market stall. You present your finest produce/product/etc for the public to see. And if someone criticises it you talk with them, find out what the matter is and work to fix it. Any side projects don't belong there - as it impacts on the business.

And finally - I find it highly inappropriate for a commission painter to be sponsored and having a Patreon if he refuses to accept feedback or criticism. No one ever learns from being told their right 100% of the time. Especially if they've become lax and started being lazy - mold lines, visible seams, 'finished' paint jobs that involve a coat of leadbelcher and a patchy wash of black over it? EW.

So what do you guys think?

Without knowing what he's been paid to do, and what quality level he promised the client it's hard to so

for example the client may have provided preassembled minis complete with mould lines, connections points visisble etc

You get this in everything

Photography - food production - miniature painting - kitchen building et c..


It's actually got nothing to do with miniature work specifically, its all about the attitude of the individual and their work ethic as well as their customer relations skills; the marketing and their whole approach to business.

Basically this person isn't conducting themselves with a sensible nor mature attitude toward their business. It's likely that they don't even really realise that showing sub-par product (even if it wasn't made for sale or commission) is a bad thing for someone whose marketing is in the quality of the miniatures they produce.
The backlash in kicking and silencing the critique is an attempt to try and save face, however such an attitude only results in even more push back from the active community and will only sour potential business advertising.


In short you've got someone who isn't a good businessman conducting themselves in a manner which is showing poor social management skills.






I would say that many businesses don't actually post with a view to learning and seeking critique on what they produce. They are aiming to have a showcase of what htey can produce and that's it. They are not learning they are producing a product, no matter the actual level of quality of the product they are producing.
Of course learning never ends and skilled people always say they are still learning; but they at least achieve a base standard above average


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Without knowing what he's been paid to do, and what quality level he promised the client it's hard to so

for example the client may have provided preassembled minis complete with mould lines, connections points visisble etc

Aye that's very true, though this shows that the artist should have known either to

1) Not take on the client since the resulting product would be sub-par (even if not posted to the comissioners website it would still be a product out there in the market)

2) Fix the mistakes and roll that into the cost

Ergo part of business is learning to work within limits that ensure the output product retains a level of qualty on par with what is advertised. Of course this idea of either doing more work and putting up costs or walking away from work can seem counter productive to many - esp if they are under financial pressure.

As far as I can tell the only person he hurt doing this is himself. If he was doing it for a friend (for free I assume) then he did not cheat out anyone out of his money, he just did a sub par job, not like his friend will complain for getting something for free. So, the job itself isn't an issue. Everything he does after this point is a mistake, but it only hurts him and not anyone else. He probably shouldn't have posted a sub par work that could damage his image. He ceritanly shouldn't have whined about criticism.

The way I see it this is nothing to be upset about. Some guy decided to damage his reputation. He already punished himself.

Aye that's very true, though this shows that the artist should have known either to

1) Not take on the client since the resulting product would be sub-par (even if not posted to the comissioners website it would still be a product out there in the market)

2) Fix the mistakes and roll that into the cost

Ergo part of business is learning to work within limits that ensure the output product retains a level of qualty on par with what is advertised. Of course this idea of either doing more work and putting up costs or walking away from work can seem counter productive to many - esp if they are under financial pressure.

I don't think it's even that complicated, simply choosing not to use those models in his own publicity would have been enough.

If he'd met the clients' brief and the client was happy, then that's all good, but putting images of those models forward as advertising was a mistake.

Assuming they met the brief and weren't just shoddy, of course.

I feel like there is possibly more your motivation to tar and feather the painter in question here than to discuss the commission market, but hopefully thats not the case.

The only basis for my comments here are: Ive been full time commission painting for the past two years, with a smaller percentage (but growing) of sculpting, and have never had to seek out clients. If Im completely wrong about any of the following Im sure it will come to bite me and Ill be out of business in a week, but Im moderately comfortable espousing the following:

If you are going to go full time commission, you need

*Painting skills that suit your desired market and pricing
(there are price ranges from bargain basement and $1000+ single model commissions, all are valid). These are consistently produced, easily estimated in terms of hours required/pricing, and makes quoting prices and expected outcome easy. Dont offer above or below what you can produce economically, its a business and you need to establish what your bottom line is.

*Social skills. You can get away with being introverted as a person and still being successful, because a lot/most of the work is conducted via email. But you have to be able to get the info out of a client, sometimes they simply arent sure of what they want, and you ultimately have to take responsibility for 'not knowing' what they expected, and this puts you in the position of having to fix it or have an unhappy client.

*Professionalism. Be on time, update your clients on the schedule if there are changes, be extremely clear and confirm every detail and expectation before work is done. Communicate. There is no 'disappearing' commission painter that is appreciated. Get every detail in writing, and review it with the client before starting. Sometimes its best to do this ad nauseum. You have to be professional 100% of the time, even if sometimes your clients are NOT. Ive encountered this rarely, and I simply dont have time in my schedule the next time they make a work request.

*And one that I had to learn the hard way, learn when to say NO. Last year I took a fall while road cycling and it totally jacked up my right arm, I had to cancel clients. MANY clients wanted to be 'pushed', as in "oh just get to me when you heal." But that meant MORE clients later in the year are now affected because you're moving or canceling them as well. So I made a rookie mistake and figured I would just squeeze in more work, and that created a really uncomfortable situation for me by the end of 2017. The right thing to do was say no, you are canceled and I cant move you. Say no and you may lose the client, you may have an understanding client, but saying yes and overbooking yourself is a good way to burn yourself pretty harsh.

As far as online representation, well, typically the work speaks for itself, yes. Its folly to post something easily interpreted as below standard without a caveat. I personally just dont take commissions any more than are table top basics, its not worth my time. But it would also add some 'degrading' quality to my portfolio and that could be someones first impression.

Successful patreons are successful because their work is of a quality that people aspire to (Ben Komets is one I subscribe to) and their work should speak for itself to the fullest extent of that meaning. Otherwise, Im not sure why you are paying for their knowledge, just as with commissions, you get what you pay for.

 Azreal13 wrote:


I don't think it's even that complicated, simply choosing not to use those models in his own publicity would have been enough.

If he'd met the clients' brief and the client was happy, then that's all good, but putting images of those models forward as advertising was a mistake.

Assuming they met the brief and weren't just shoddy, of course.

Aye but in todays world one has to be open to the fact that if you do low grade work word gets around. At the local scene the club the client plays at will see those models and talk about them. So at the local level that's really bad advertising. Even if another person there has really great work it sends up flags - was the great work a fluke and this shoddy the more normal.

At the larger scale anyone can take photos and put them up on facebook - just got a new army many people would show it off. So again that poorer grade work gets shown around damaging the business image.

 Zach wrote:
I feel like there is possibly more your motivation to tar and feather the painter in question here than to discuss the commission market, but hopefully thats not the case.

The only basis for my comments here are: Ive been full time commission painting for the past two years, with a smaller percentage (but growing) of sculpting, and have never had to seek out clients. If Im completely wrong about any of the following Im sure it will come to bite me and Ill be out of business in a week, but Im moderately comfortable espousing the following:

If you are going to go full time commission, you need

*Painting skills that suit your desired market and pricing
(there are price ranges from bargain basement and $1000+ single model commissions, all are valid). These are consistently produced, easily estimated in terms of hours required/pricing, and makes quoting prices and expected outcome easy. Dont offer above or below what you can produce economically, its a business and you need to establish what your bottom line is.

*Social skills. You can get away with being introverted as a person and still being successful, because a lot/most of the work is conducted via email. But you have to be able to get the info out of a client, sometimes they simply arent sure of what they want, and you ultimately have to take responsibility for 'not knowing' what they expected, and this puts you in the position of having to fix it or have an unhappy client.

*Professionalism. Be on time, update your clients on the schedule if there are changes, be extremely clear and confirm every detail and expectation before work is done. Communicate. There is no 'disappearing' commission painter that is appreciated. Get every detail in writing, and review it with the client before starting. Sometimes its best to do this ad nauseum. You have to be professional 100% of the time, even if sometimes your clients are NOT. Ive encountered this rarely, and I simply dont have time in my schedule the next time they make a work request.

*And one that I had to learn the hard way, learn when to say NO. Last year I took a fall while road cycling and it totally jacked up my right arm, I had to cancel clients. MANY clients wanted to be 'pushed', as in "oh just get to me when you heal." But that meant MORE clients later in the year are now affected because you're moving or canceling them as well. So I made a rookie mistake and figured I would just squeeze in more work, and that created a really uncomfortable situation for me by the end of 2017. The right thing to do was say no, you are canceled and I cant move you. Say no and you may lose the client, you may have an understanding client, but saying yes and overbooking yourself is a good way to burn yourself pretty harsh.

As far as online representation, well, typically the work speaks for itself, yes. Its folly to post something easily interpreted as below standard without a caveat. I personally just dont take commissions any more than are table top basics, its not worth my time. But it would also add some 'degrading' quality to my portfolio and that could be someones first impression.

Successful patreons are successful because their work is of a quality that people aspire to (Ben Komets is one I subscribe to) and their work should speak for itself to the fullest extent of that meaning. Otherwise, Im not sure why you are paying for their knowledge, just as with commissions, you get what you pay for.

This.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
So what do you guys think?

As a Capitalist, if you want to sell low quality goods and services, and there is a market for it, then good for you! If customers are okay buying your stuff, I don't see any issue here.

As long as no force is being used, sell those low quality paint jobs all day long!

If I saw a commission painter offering a service below the standard I was looking for, I wouldn't commission them. I certainly wouldn't contact them telling them that their service wasn't good enough to capture my interest, and how to improve, it's absolutely none of my business. I don't walk past a late night takeaway, see someone eating a greasy looking burger, and then feel the need to go in and try to explain to them how to make a better burger. Etiquette goes two ways, and offering unsolicited advice is rarely well received.

 JamesY wrote:
If I saw a commission painter offering a service below the standard I was looking for, I wouldn't commission them. I certainly wouldn't contact them telling them that their service wasn't good enough to capture my interest, and how to improve, it's absolutely none of my business. I don't walk past a late night takeaway, see someone eating a greasy looking burger, and then feel the need to go in and try to explain to them how to make a better burger. Etiquette goes two ways, and offering unsolicited advice is rarely well received.

On the other hand, most people seem to understand that late-night fast food is cheap and low in quality. Fewer people seem to understand the commission market, and saying "this guy is ripping you off for garbage" is a helpful service to people who don't understand what quality looks like or how reasonable pricing structures look. And many of those people are commission painters who would benefit greatly from advice, if they're willing to accept it.

@ peregrine but back to the same hand, there is also a market for low quality commission painting. Some people just want models with enough colour to look OK on the table, and finger pointing and insulting those providing this service isn't necessary. Consumers have the internet to research the options their money can afford and judge the quality of the person's work for themselves. Constructive criticism on a project is one thing, telling a stranger how to run their business, however good the advice might be, isn't good 'etiquette,' which is the topic of the discussion.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
- The 'shoddy' work wasn't professional work, it was 'for a friend' (To be honest if I was that friend I'd be PISSED that he thought so little of me to give something he clearly didn't give a damn about doing as a gift).

Seriously? You must be a pretty sucky friend if that's all it takes to get you pissed off, lol.

Painting models is an exceptionally time consuming undertaking, I'd be grateful if a friend willing to sink the hours in to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
If I saw a commission painter offering a service below the standard I was looking for, I wouldn't commission them. I certainly wouldn't contact them telling them that their service wasn't good enough to capture my interest, and how to improve, it's absolutely none of my business. I don't walk past a late night takeaway, see someone eating a greasy looking burger, and then feel the need to go in and try to explain to them how to make a better burger. Etiquette goes two ways, and offering unsolicited advice is rarely well received.

On the other hand, most people seem to understand that late-night fast food is cheap and low in quality. Fewer people seem to understand the commission market, and saying "this guy is ripping you off for garbage" is a helpful service to people who don't understand what quality looks like or how reasonable pricing structures look. And many of those people are commission painters who would benefit greatly from advice, if they're willing to accept it.

I didn't see anything in the OP (maybe I just missed it) about pricing. If they were charging too much, I can understand wanting to spread the word of it being overpriced, but as JamesY says, there's absolutely a market for cheap low end commission painted models. Many people would rather spend $1000 getting a mediocre army painted they can game with than $5000 getting something awesome.


At the end of the day my opinion is "eh, who gives a crap". It just seems like a non-issue to me how someone wants to run their business.

It's been said before, but some people are just looking to get by. Be able to put models on the table without having people give them a hard time. I could absolutely see a niche for that. Tournament players that aren't interested in winning painting competitions, that are looking to meet a *minimum* painting requirement to be allowed to play.

Why pay more than minimum, when you don't care more than minimum? For some people, they're game tokens and not art.

That said, if I were selling my services, I wouldn't advertise anything below my "low quality" jobs. Even if they're pre-built minis, I just wouldn't advertise them. Or if the models are poor but the paint is good, make a note about how the minis were to be painted "as-is"... although I probably just wouldn't show them.

Everyone has their own standards. If the guy can turn a buck, all the power to him. If I owned a business, I wouldn't leave too much criticism up either. Maybe he's not acting like a mature businessman, but the info if vague and there could be bias involved.

 JamesY wrote:
@ peregrine but back to the same hand, there is also a market for low quality commission painting. Some people just want models with enough colour to look OK on the table, and finger pointing and insulting those providing this service isn't necessary. Consumers have the internet to research the options their money can afford and judge the quality of the person's work for themselves. Constructive criticism on a project is one thing, telling a stranger how to run their business, however good the advice might be, isn't good 'etiquette,' which is the topic of the discussion.

I'm pretty sure that if you're commenting about the quality of the construction/paint-job on social media - especially for some of the things that were mentioned in the OP - that is meant to be constructive criticism, not "telling someone how to run his business".

I'd agree with those who've said the painter in question - whoever it is - doesn't have good social media management skills. Getting negative feedback is one thing; deleting it, whining about it, and attacking the people making it is another. With something like a Patreon, that can be poison.

@Dysartes I absolutely agree that the painter in question shouldn't have shown pictures that would discourage further work, but that is their mistake to make and learn from. I agree that the painter in question lacked professionalism in their responses, and that it will likely affect future business for them. I even agree that they would probably benefit if they took the advice on board (which, if you are telling someone "you need to do" X "if you're going to do this as a business" is definitely trying to tell someone how to run their business.). What I don't agree with is people taking on board the self appointed role of judges of acceptable quality, telling others what is and isn't good enough without knowing the dialogue before hand with the client. Again, the topic is etiquette, which is relevant; if a painter or customer posts a picture on a discussion board, then that is asking for a discussion to follow, regardless of the direction it takes. Fair enough. The places mentioned in the op are where the individual is advertising for business, which isn't (Imo) the right place to give detailed criticism. If you don't like what's on offer, don't buy into it. If someone else doesn't mind it and offers a commission, or if if the service folds, it is what it is. As I said before, etiquette goes two ways, and although it's in the painter's best interests here to observe it, it sounds like he has a few posters who would benefit from showing a little also.

All that said, if the service is dodgy, and looks like a scam is afoot (like BTP at the end), then saving potential customers from being scammed, fair enough, post away.

One point to consider, if I might take the comparison to food outlets.

Yes there's tiers of markets in everything; there's your gourmet luxury food outlet with a high price and high quality; all the way down to the dirt cheap fatty greasy roadside mobile diner that's dirt cheap and not the best cooking.

Each of those markets is distinct and can be expected to deal, in the majority, with clients of very different demands and wallet sizes (though of course in a free market some customers will use both outlets for different reasons/situations).


However what the opening post in this thread is raising the issue of is when the gourmet restaurant is advertising and serving food poorly made. Ergo where a service provider is providing a service way way below their expected and advertised standard; then went on to attack any who disagreed with the provision of that service.


So its a slightly different argument to the one of tiers and more one of best business practice.

@overread whilst I agree with you for the most part, my point is that, continuing with the food outlet analogy, if someone orders a burger in a venue where standard x is expected, and standard z is delivered, it is that person who should be the one complaining or criticizing if they aren't happy. It isn't the place of someone walking past, who sees the food and decides that it isn't up to the correct standard, to intervene. To me, this seems to have come more from bruised egos of people who feel that their opinion should carry more weight with strangers than it does a desire to genuinely help anyone.

 JamesY wrote:
@overread whilst I agree with you for the most part, my point is that, continuing with the food outlet analogy, if someone orders a burger in a venue where standard x is expected, and standard z is delivered, it is that person who should be the one complaining or criticizing if they aren't happy. It isn't the place of someone walking past, who sees the food and decides that it isn't up to the correct standard, to intervene. To me, this seems to have come more from bruised egos of people who feel that their opinion should carry more weight with strangers than it does a desire to genuinely help anyone.

Alternatively, if the venue doesn't want random people pointing out how their product sucks then they should stop selling overpriced garbage.

If someone I knew was commission painting, and produced work of a lower standard than usual, and posted it on their website, I would send a *private* message saying "Hey guy - just a thought - not my business - but - is that pic helping your cause?" and leave it at that.

If I didn't know him or her personally - none of my business.

Why create a witch hunt? People can vote with their wallets. If the people receiving the figs are happy with the painting, why is it any business if yours?

Overread wrote:One point to consider, if I might take the comparison to food outlets.

Yes there's tiers of markets in everything; there's your gourmet luxury food outlet with a high price and high quality; all the way down to the dirt cheap fatty greasy roadside mobile diner that's dirt cheap and not the best cooking.

Each of those markets is distinct and can be expected to deal, in the majority, with clients of very different demands and wallet sizes (though of course in a free market some customers will use both outlets for different reasons/situations).


However what the opening post in this thread is raising the issue of is when the gourmet restaurant is advertising and serving food poorly made. Ergo where a service provider is providing a service way way below their expected and advertised standard; then went on to attack any who disagreed with the provision of that service.


So its a slightly different argument to the one of tiers and more one of best business practice.

Peregrine wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
@overread whilst I agree with you for the most part, my point is that, continuing with the food outlet analogy, if someone orders a burger in a venue where standard x is expected, and standard z is delivered, it is that person who should be the one complaining or criticizing if they aren't happy. It isn't the place of someone walking past, who sees the food and decides that it isn't up to the correct standard, to intervene. To me, this seems to have come more from bruised egos of people who feel that their opinion should carry more weight with strangers than it does a desire to genuinely help anyone.

Alternatively, if the venue doesn't want random people pointing out how their product sucks then they should stop selling overpriced garbage.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think price was mentioned by the OP at all.

It's posters after the event who have assumed that this person was advertising themselves as a high end service and/or overcharging.

Well, this has been - fascinating- and interesting to see the amount of people trying to fish for alternative reasons or indeed assuming that I had mentioned price or indeed was advertising myself.

The reason of this post was to get a general community consensus. Not create a witch hunt. But gather a general, strong enough overall opinion to at least try and get the individual in concern to wake up and realise the harm he is doing to himself.

As I mentioned in the original post...

The concerns are his current drop in standards and his reactions to criticisms at just that. He can produce quality work and he HAS produced quality work in the past.

But there's a difference between standard dipping just a little (slightly chalkier airbrush for example) and completely abandoning the basics (mold lines, complete non-effort for large chunks of the model, complete failure to actually paint details - literally staying in the lines of a model) and that is the sole reason people generally have become vocal.

I notice that very few of you touched on whether it's 'right' to receive sponsorship/patreons etc. still when the quality has so clearly dropped.

I have never once mentioned the price - not my place to say though I do know that for one of his more recent non-jobs the commissioner in question (a local store) paid a very hefty sum of money and got back something that would have made BTP look like quality - just going to say that there.

Thank you for your feedback though. I'm seeing here and a few other places a very solid consensus in terms of business practice and standards.

Namely that everything put up, side project or not, on a commission page becomes representative of that page's quality.

That posting things in the public eye opens them up for cricistim by default.

And the importance of social skills, particularly on platforms such as Facebook, Youtube or Twitter.

Overread got to the gist of it.

And once more...it's not a witch hunt. It's a concern. Someone who can produce things to outstanding quality becoming absolutely lax with his standards and then trying to make half a dozen excuses for it rather than owning up...it may be as simple as too much on his plate.

And with regards to the friend's gift comments? As a friend you'd have a right to be pissed. Even though a gift is in effect free, a gift is also supposed to have meaning and a value beyond mere financial terms. I'd certainly not say a half assed job from someone who you know can do a lot better is a solid. I'd see that as an insult.

Unless it is that completely different and off the walls from what the individual would normally do (examples being the comedy sketches some artists do on napkins etc) it just comes across as...'wow, thanks. I must mean a lot to you as a friend for you to just not care and to halfass something this much.'

But perhaps that's just me.

If I do something for a friend I aim to go 110% with it. To try and make what they're getting particularly unique or very high standard.

Can I ask why you are so invested in this individual? Why do you can so much whether they succeed or fail? Genuinely interested to know.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

I notice that very few of you touched on whether it's 'right' to receive sponsorship/patreons etc. still when the quality has so clearly dropped.

That would be entirely up to said sponsors.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I notice that very few of you touched on whether it's 'right' to receive sponsorship/patreons etc. still when the quality has so clearly dropped.

What would be wrong about it? If people are gullible to hand over money to see pictures of trash then take the money without hesitation. But other people have the right to point out that the trash is in fact trash, and you should probably expect to see that criticism.

That posting things in the public eye opens them up for cricistim by default.

Exactly.