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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Hey there Dakkites. I have recently been doing a 40k lore dive and found myself somewhat stumped. Who polices the Imperial Guard? I’ve collected my thoughts and research below, but I’d like to acknowledge up front that all of my guesses may be wrong, some combination of them may be true or I may be asking a question that is simply unhelpful in the context of 40k.

Who serves as military police for the Imperial Guard?

1. Commissars
My first thought was the noble Commissar. They certainly enforce the law in the case of capital offense, but what about lower offenses? Do you really want to be the one who wakes up the Commissar because the men have gotten out of hand down at the local bar?

2. Arbites
My next thought was Arbites. It certainly seems like they should have jurisdiction and they sometimes issue non-lethal punishment, but they can only really act if you violate the Lex Imperialis, so it seems like the bar scenario foils them as well (unless things have gotten REALLY out of hand).

3. Departmento Munitorum Field Enforcement Corps
What about the Department Munitorum? Maybe they count MPs as being on the “civilian” side? And hey, they have something called the “Field Enforcement Corps”! Two problems:
A. They are tasked with enforcing regulations on “Munitorum personnel”, which I’m pretty sure doesn’t include guardsmen.
B. They seems primarily concerned with wasted/stolen supplies. I don’t imagine they are going to care about the guardsmen harassing the locals unless it creates a logistical problem.

4. Regimental Officers/NCOs
So, as this bar scene has been such a mental hurdle I decided to focus on that. Simplest answer: self-policing. This may make a lot of sense for the lesser offenses (and I’d bet it happens regularly for such things), but if this is used as the only broader means of policing then you start to run into problems. With the countless differing regiments of the Guard, you are inevitably going to get many regiments that are terrible at self policing. Then again, the theme of 40k is sort of “10,000 years into the train-wreck”, which bring me to option 5...

5. Varies by home-world/regimental organization
A lot about the Imperial Guard is not standardized. What’s to say that policing is not one of those things? It makes a lot of sense from the perspective of the Imperium as an endlessly overwhelmed bureaucracy. In the mind of a high ranking member of the Imperium, if a Commissar or Arbite doesn’t care it probably doesn’t matter. Neither the ranking Guard officer in the area nor the Planetary Governor are likely to spare a single thought to that bar so long as the casualty count is relatively low and the damage doesn’t spread.

While I really enjoyed the dive, none of these answers seem satisfying to me. So what do you think?

Am I missing something here?
   
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kapuskasing, ON

Commisars don't consider any offence minor. They'll wake up for chance to BLAM.
   
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Norn Queen






Cain is shown as having to bail his men out of a drunk tank, so I guess it comes down to regiment. I am sure some would have some sort of MP duty if Arbites or Commissars were not around.
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept




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Commissars deal with all infractions in the Cain novels.

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Leader of the Sept







IIRC one of the Gaunt books has them in a maximum security jail.run by the commisariat with commisariat troopers manning the place. So commisars hold the authority but they have underlings with specifically delegated powers to act over other Guardsmen. So MPs.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





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Commisars and an internal investigation force, cant remember which book it was in but there was at least one regiment that policed itself.
   
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Flinty wrote:
IIRC one of the Gaunt books has them in a maximum security jail.run by the commisariat with commisariat troopers manning the place. So commisars hold the authority but they have underlings with specifically delegated powers to act over other Guardsmen. So MPs.


Or maybe also recruiting commissar cadets from the schola to act as military police officers and NCO. Maybe they need more experience to act as full commissar so they may serve under one as policing troopers until they ready to take full role.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Each planet has its own governmental and judicial system that operates under its own set of laws and rules that anyone on the planet needs to follow save for those sanctioned by the high lords.

The way the imperium of man works is so long as a planet pays it's tides to the impirum and are not breaking imperium law, ie chaos gak, they make their own laws that if guard were on shore leave they would need to follow those laws or local law enforcement would take over.

If you can muscle past the first half, the book nemisis does a really good job at showing you how law works on imperial worlds.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






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In Commissar the story takes place in a giant prison mostly filled with former guardsmen. And he's attacked to the provost platoon of a vostroyan regiment, and they seem to be the MP platoon.

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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Thank you all for the feedback and references! I guess the Commissar has broader duties than I first realized. Makes it pretty important how 'blam-enthusiastic' your Commissar is in that context.

I do still like all these other positions that situationally may be enforcing the law on the IG. Anyone else got any weird side cases that might be policing the Guard (but only because of crime/location/other highly specific details)?
   
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The Conquerer






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Commissars are the MPs for the Imperial Guard. Full stop. Regimental officers of course will be involved in the process depending on how that commissar operates. The Commissar might not deal with the minor offenses and leave that to the officers to sort out, or he might be more hands on, but strictly speaking its all up to the Commissar.

Arbites aren't involved with the Imperial guard at all. They are pretty much a cross between the FBI and local police departments. Sometimes there are actual local Police organizations and in that case the Arbites limit themselves to higher profile stuff, but in other areas they will act as local police as well as federal police.

The Departmento Munitorum polices its own ranks, but any offenses committed by Guardsmen will be referred to the Commissars, as per the Munitorum Manuel and the Uplifting Primer. https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Munitorum-Manual-Graham-McNeill/dp/1844165027 https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Infantrymans-Uplifting-Primer-Damocles/dp/1844164845

Sadly they are out of print right now and very expensive, but hilarious and educational.


It bears reminding that Commissars have broad duties because they have broad power. They quite literally have total authority over EVERYONE in the Imperial Guard. Basically no individual outside an Inquisitor in the Imperium has as much authority as a Commissar has. A commissar could execute Creed himself and take command if he felt the situation warranted it. This is a rare occurrence as commissars tend to prefer finding some other IG officer to take over if they execute a commanding officer, but some Commissars do take command of their units from time to time, or even permanently(Like Gaunt).
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





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I also like Giants form of policing, in that an execution should only be used as a last resort in extremis. If you use it too much they whole unit will turn against you and you’ll quickly find yourself on the wrong end of a grenade or some such (fragged). Commissars have many other methods to punish and to correct malfeaceance beyond a bolt round to the head. Giant I a good example because if he really did just use his bolt pistol to put people in line the Tanith would have likely knifed him in his sleep before the first book was over lol.

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Norn Queen






I remember when Catachans had an actual tabletop rule to represent commissars having "accidents". Good times.

Cain in his books makes a point to his cadets about how running about swinging your nads around like you own the place is a surefire way to have an aforementioned "accident".
   
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I remember when Catachans had an actual tabletop rule to represent commissars having "accidents". Good times.

Cain in his books makes a point to his cadets about how running about swinging your nads around like you own the place is a surefire way to have an aforementioned "accident".


Cain always was one of the more intelligent and rounded out commissar.

The point that authority while true. Is sometimes better used carefully and with good reason is kinda a nice little observation in the books.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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So even in the year 40000 there’s still MPs? Figures those killjoys would survive. They feed on misery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 14:19:53


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Leader of the Sept







 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So even in the year 40000 there’s still MPs? Figures those killjoys would survive. They feed on misery.


The Rogue Traders rulebook even had specific markings for marine armour to denote field police. Been around a long time...

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Flinty wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So even in the year 40000 there’s still MPs? Figures those killjoys would survive. They feed on misery.


The Rogue Traders rulebook even had specific markings for marine armour to denote field police. Been around a long time...


If they live on despair. They should posetive ly thrive.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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 jhe90 wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So even in the year 40000 there’s still MPs? Figures those killjoys would survive. They feed on misery.


The Rogue Traders rulebook even had specific markings for marine armour to denote field police. Been around a long time...


If they live on despair. They should posetive ly thrive.


They’re a branch of soldiers that hate their fellow soldiers and fun. If I want to swan dive from the barracks window into a kiddie pool of mayonnaise, why should they stop me? Also pretty sure going 1-5 mph over the speed limit on post is not a national security issue.

In a serious note the use of a space marine as a policing force seems like a waste of resources, although then again the rogue trader marines were a little....off.

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Douglas Bader






Nobody polices the IG because they have superior discipline and do not need to have it enforced upon them by external forces. In a proper IG regiment commissars are redundant, and every guardsman knows his sacred duty to execute the commissar if he begins to show any signs of cowardice.

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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
In a serious note the use of a space marine as a policing force seems like a waste of resources, although then again the rogue trader marines were a little....off.

They were policing their brother marines. They're also in the latest HH black book - apparently the Space Wolves needed a load of them before Russ came along.
   
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

I recall in one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels there were the Provosts, who are described like MPs.
   
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Leader of the Sept







beast_gts wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
In a serious note the use of a space marine as a policing force seems like a waste of resources, although then again the rogue trader marines were a little....off.

They were policing their brother marines. They're also in the latest HH black book - apparently the Space Wolves needed a load of them before Russ came along.


Not in the Rogue Trader book. There is a picture of marines arresting some punks for graffiti

Probably a capital offense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/12 14:09:08


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Peregrine wrote:
Nobody polices the IG because they have superior discipline and do not need to have it enforced upon them by external forces. In a proper IG regiment commissars are redundant, and every guardsman knows his sacred duty to execute the commissar if he begins to show any signs of cowardice.

*Here the term cowardice can also mean a healthy desire to live and not be devoured/tortured/killed/REDACTED/captured or crippled by aliens who think the planet is theirs.

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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kapuskasing, ON

That states the reason for their cowardice, which is still heresy. BLAM!
   
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pm713 wrote:
*Here the term cowardice can also mean a healthy desire to live and not be devoured/tortured/killed/REDACTED/captured or crippled by aliens who think the planet is theirs.


Exactly. What right does a commissar have to prioritize their own safety above their duty to their God-Emperor? A guardsman must be watchful for cowards and traitors who believe that certainty of death justifies abandoning one's duties. It is unfortunate truth that the lesser soldiers such as space marines do not have the courage and loyalty of the Imperial Guard and will often have to be executed for their failures, but with constant vigilance the damage these traitors do to the Emperor's loyal war machine can be limited.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/12 18:03:01


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





The ranking commissar does indeed have the duty to handle all issues related to morale and discipline within a regiment. That doesn't mean that they handle every little issue, or that every infraction requires an instance of the BLAM! meme.

The regimental commissar is almost always assisted by several more junior commissars. They're his eyes and ears within the regiment, and deal with the day-to-day law and order duties. While they technically have the same authority over life and death as the regimental commissar, they've not yet proven that they can be trusted to make the right calls when the survival of the Imperium is on the line- if they BLAM! their captain, they're going to have some splainin' to do. Note that the same would apply to a regimental commissar who BLAM!s a planetary governor. Even an authority as broad as a commissar's still has ranks, politics, and facts-on-the-ground to contend with.

For situations where some brute force is required, a commissar should be able to enlist fellow members of the regiment to serve as muscle. Refusing a commissar's orders to enforce discipline is certainly a worse crime than anything your compatriots would be doing, after all. For regiments where even that is not enough- where commissars are liable to end up fragged- I could see the Officio Prefectus sending along a provost platoon to serve as bodyguards.

Also note that on the company or platoon level, you're likely to see self-policing, if for no other reason than to avoid the attention of the commissars in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/12 18:26:19


   
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Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

#5, always #5, it depends. In a setting with a million worlds and a 10,000 year timeline any rule is just a guideline.

On paper I would say it's Commissars acting as investigators, prosecutors, judges and executioners. Probably with formal or informal squads of their own (MPs/Proctors/Enforcers/whatever).

In reality everyone will find their own solution, some regiments won't have any commissars, some will have priests or officers maintaining discipline, some will just be slack slobs.

 
   
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Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Sleeping in the Rock

1. Commissars deal with many many infractions, and deal with morale even before an infraction. So most things they would deal with. For very very minor issues then I imagine point 4 would apply.. This sort of thing has happened in the Tanith books where Sergeants and such will admonish their troops for very minor issues. Also as mentioned by others not all Commissars act equally, thus their interpretation of their jurisdiction or their strictness will vary between individuals, the situation and location of the regiment and the general behaviour therein.

2. Off duty in populated areas such as in an imperial controlled city, local law enforcement and maybe Arbites if it is a serious incident could well get involved. However most times these infractions will be reported to the soldiers Regimental Commissar who will deal with the matter internally. On duty as far as I know the Arbites have no jurisdiction over the Guard as they are separate arms of the Imperium.

3. I believe the Munitorum as you say mainly deal with equipment based infractions and these, according to the Munitorum Manual book, will be for the most part reported to the Soldiers CO and Regimental Commissar to be dealt with. I haven't heard of the Enforcement Corps before so can't comment, but considering how large and integral the Munitorum is I'm sure they could well have some level of Jurisdiction.

4. Absolutely, COs and NCOs will often engage in self policing in affairs where they are too minor to bother the Commissar, or they don't feel it warrants such a response. You don't always have to play the highest card possible. If you can punish and correct the soldier without involving the Commissar then there can be advantages to that.

5. Again, absolutely, crime and punishment will vary wildly between Commissars, planets, regimental traditions and so on. For example the Savlar Chem Dogs are allowed to loot. But in other regiments that is a capital offence. In some regiments the Commissar may BLAM someone for a scuff on their boots, in others the Commissar may never need to BLAM anyone, and if they do to keep it as a last resort.

In summary, it varies a lot. But most of the Guard policing will be internal, whether it be handled by COs, NCOs, the Commissariat or in some cases mob style justice where squads will punish individual troopers.

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 Lion of Caliban wrote:
In summary, it varies a lot. But most of the Guard policing will be internal, whether it be handled by COs, NCOs, the Commissariat or in some cases mob style justice where squads will punish individual troopers.


Good points all, and as you say it will vary from unit to unit.

But there's absolutely no way the Comissar can be the only authority on punishments and keeping order. Having unit leaders handle matters according to some scale of severity lets the higher ups concentrate on more important stuff and shows the men who their closest boss is. A sergeant, Lt, Cpt etc who can only wail "I'll call the Comissar" if a trooper disobeys is no leader. He has no authority at all, the regiment won't function on the field or off it - and there's not enough Comissars to BLAM everyone before getting gunned down. A Comissar who demands to oversee every little detail is actually lowering morale in the regiment - by undermining the men who should lead - and is required to BLAM himself immediately.
   
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Sleeping in the Rock

Spetulhu wrote: But there's absolutely no way the Comissar can be the only authority on punishments and keeping order. Having unit leaders handle matters according to some scale of severity lets the higher ups concentrate on more important stuff and shows the men who their closest boss is. A sergeant, Lt, Cpt etc who can only wail "I'll call the Comissar" if a trooper disobeys is no leader. He has no authority at all, the regiment won't function on the field or off it - and there's not enough Comissars to BLAM everyone before getting gunned down. A Comissar who demands to oversee every little detail is actually lowering morale in the regiment - by undermining the men who should lead - and is required to BLAM himself immediately.


I absolutely agree, and what an NCO or Officer deems too minor to bother the Commissar will again vary. And if they are a good Commissar they certainly won't oversee every minor detail of their men's lives, no one has that kind of time. But the point I was making is that as the morale officer and the closest thing to an MP permanently attached to a regiment they will oversee most of the actual criminal infractions. And a lot of other infractions can and often are referred to them for judgement.

Lion of Caliban wrote: 4. Absolutely, COs and NCOs will often engage in self policing in affairs where they are too minor to bother the Commissar, or they don't feel it warrants such a response. You don't always have to play the highest card possible. If you can punish and correct the soldier without involving the Commissar then there can be advantages to that.


I'm not saying that NCOs and Officers don't have the power or will to enforce the rules, quite the opposite. Just that the most official power to police the regiment will usually be in the hands of a Commissar.

"In Warfare, preparation is the key. Determine that which your foe prizes the most. Then site your heavy weapons so that they overlook it. In this way, you may be quite sure that you shall never want for targets."
— Lion El'Jonson


"What I cannot crush with words I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"
- Lord Commander Solar Macharius
 
   
 
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