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Hello,

Kinda new to this forum ( i lurk on other 40k forums), i'm looking for feedback on the following stats/point change for tyranid units that rarely see the light of the table (mostly), and would appreciate input.

Thanks !
TYRANID PRIME
Overpriced when compared to equivalent units like Space Marine Captains
- 75 pts without weapons (from 100)

TERVIGON
It's priced on the assumption you'll get tons of free gaunts, but that's not the case anymore. Poor combat ability, mediocre shooting and psychic output and no invuln doesn't justify 200pts+.
- 195 pts without weapons (from 225)
- 5+ invulnerable save as a psyker
- Stinger salvo can be replaced with spore cysts
- 4 attacks (from 3) – like all big monsters with claws/talons
- Weapon skill : 4/4/5 (from 4/5/5)

TYRANT GUARDS
They need better protection to be a worthwhile bodyguards platform
- 4 wounds (from 3)
- Move 8 (from 7)
- Crushing Claws : 8 pts (from 12)

SWARMLORD
Overpriced compared to a Tyrant + same survivability considerations. To further differentiate it from a regular tyrant, and also to justify the premium price, more wounds would be in order
Otherwise, a large price reduction to account for the fact the is only slightly more powerful than a Hive Tyrant at full strenght (and degrades much worse), yet costs almost twice as much.
- 260 pts (from 300)
OR
- 16 wounds (from 12)

BROODLORD
Overpriced (Compared to a Tyrant) (same damage, lesser stats, less wounds, less resilience, less psychic powers). Highest PPW of all tyranid units.
- 135 pts (from 162)

MALANTHROPE
Hit pretty hard in Chapter Approved 2017, this HQ went from 90 to 140. 140 pts from a HQ that literally does nothing but give -1 to hit in a 3 inch bubble was overdoing it
- 120 pts (from 140)
OR
- increase range of aura to 6 (from 3)

MALECEPTOR
This unit is very similar to a basic Hive Tyrant in terms of defensive profile, yet worse in almost every other respect, and more expensive.
- 143 pts (from 162) [same cost as a Hive Tyrant without weapons]
- The Maleceptor must be able to use Psychic overload alongside at least one other psychic power
- Psychic overload range increased to 9 (from 6)
- 4 attacks (from 3) - like all big monsters with claws/talons
- Weapon skill : 4/4/5 (from 4/5/6)

ZOANTHROPES
With the nerf to smite, this unit lost its sole utility (not like you saw them much before already), as most Tyranid HQ can already smite/cast
- 3+ zoan : +1 when making psychic tests, can deny twice per psychic phase
- Psychic barrage stratagem : requires 2 units of 3xZoanthropes (from3) / 3+ dice roll instead of 4+ / reduce damage to 2D3 mortal wounds instead of 3D3
- Synapse range : +2 per model

LICTOR/DEATHLEAPER
The lictor has no defined role in the army, poor damage, and a now-stunted deepstrike ability
- Hidden Hunter : replace the self-deepstrike with a scouting ability : Alternatively, at the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12 from any enemy unit
- Grasping Talons : change damage to 1 (from 2) and add this ability : on each successful wound rolls, this weapon does 1 additional mortal wound
- New ability : « Silent Death » : Enemy units cannot fire overwatch at this unit if the distance between the unit charging and the unit(s) charged is less than 6

RED TERROR
Red terror only efficiently damages troop units with an endurance of 3/4/5 (no problem with that), and his dmg plummets once he meets armored infantry. Yet he costs 75 pts and has no synapse (that’s the problem-s)
He needs love
- 65 pts (from 75)
- « Alpha Ravener » : units of friendly <HIVE FLEET> RAVENERS within 6 of this character’s base count as being under the effect of SYNAPSE

VENOMTHROPES
This unit is easily sniped and makes the pts investment to get the shrouding spore bonus not worth it. It needs something to be considered.
- Shrouding spores : (-2) to hit against the Venomthrope unit itself
- Change the 9 inch range of shrouding spore requirement from 6 to 5 Venomthropes models
- Lingering Spores : when a venomthrope looses all his wounds, he is not removed from the board immediately. Instead he is removed at the end of the phase during which he lost all his wounds, and still counts to determine the "shrouding spore" ability conditions

PYROVORES
Their poor damage and mobility makes them barely considered as worthwhile
- 30 pts (from 38)
- Can be fielded in units of 1 to 6 (from 1-2-3)

HARUSPEX
The Haruspex is slow to arrive into action, and his damage is frighteningly poor for such an expensive monster : why spend 200 pts and 1-2 turns walking the board if the result is « Meh ». 2 carnifex are better.
- 168 pts (from 198)
OR
- « Monstrous Battering Ram » : you can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase if it charged in the same turn
- Ravenous Maw : 8D3 hit rolls (from 4D3)
- Shovelling claws : AP -4 (from -3)

TOXICRENE
Lacking a defined role in the army, the cost opportunity of taking him for 157 pts is not clear. Make him a giant venomthrope (that’s what he is, both visually, and in the fluff) since his damage is not great
- « Shrouding Spores » : Your opponent must substract 1 from hit rolls made for ranged weapons that target <HIVE FLEET> INFANTRY units whilst they are 3 of any <HIVE FLEET> Toxicrene.
- 8/6/4 attacks (from 6/5/4) and 160 pts (from 157)

TYRANNOFEX
It's weakness is negative hit modifiers (i.e. Alaitoc, Stygies) alongside degradation, and can be quickly made redundant when these start to stack (and they always quickly do)
- Ballistic skill 4/4/5 (instead of 4/5/5)
- Stinger salvo can be replaced with spore cysts
Fleshborer Hive has no gimmicks, it’s just a lot of short range shots, and its much less interesting than Acid Spray and Rupture Canon:
- range 24 (from 18)
- ignores cover

HARPY AND HIVE CRONE
Their +move doesn’t justify the high cost when taking their shooting/combat efficiency into account, which is average (4+) AND degrading (5+) really fast

HARPY
- 106 pts without weapons (from 121)
- Stinger salvo can be replaced with Spore cysts
- ballistic skill 4/4/5 (from 4/5/5) OR +1 to hit rolls during shoot/fight when in range of SYNAPSE
- 4 attacks (from 3)

HIVE CRONE :
- 138 pts without weapons (from 153)
- TENTACLIDS : strenght 7 (from 5), AP -1 (from 0), D3 dmg (from 1)
- Drool Canon : 2D6 attacks (from D6)
- Stinger salvo can be replaced with Spore cysts
- ballistic skill 4/4/5 (from 4/5/5) OR +1 to hit rolls during shoot/fight when in range of SYNAPSE
- 4 attacks (from 3)

TYRANNOCITE
With the new beta rules forbidding deep strike turn 1, the only Tyranid transport which happens to be a drop-pod just lost alot of utility.
- 90 pts (from 98)
- Can have no weapons equipped
- Move 12/6/3 (from 6/4/2) – if he didn’t come from reserve
- when the Tyrannocite lands on the table when coming from reserve more than 12 from the border of the battlefield, it gains the « immobile » trait

So, the Tervigon gets a massive buff? Seems unneeded.

Prime getting buffed is probably fine. He's not the most competitive.

Swarmlord... Not sure if he needs to drop by 17%. In fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

Malanthrope getting buffed, why? It's already a killer unit.

Broodlord does NOT need a buff.

Not sure on Maleceptor.

Neat ability on the Tyrant Guard, but do they really need another wound?

I don't like the ability to pop up within 2" of an enemy-that's a no fail charge. But going just before first turn seems fine to me.

Not sure if Deathleaper needs a buff-I legitimately don't know about him.

Same for Red Terror.

Zoanthropes do NOT need a buff. They are murderous!

Don't think the Haruspex needs buffs like that.

Toxicrene probably doesn't need more attacks.

I don't think the Fex needs 30 freaking shots.

Harpy and Hive Crone have an ability that only works when they charge a non-Fly unit, but cannot charge a non-Fly unit.

No idea on the Hive Crone, if that's a good change or not.

Overall Thoughts!

You're buffing Nids. Like, a lot. Even if you're buffing the less good units, Nids are in a GREAT place right now. They do NOT need buffs.

Hello, thanks for your feedback,

Don't see it as a raw "buff to nids" really, because if those units are playable, they'll just replace other units that you see all day long ( Flying Tyrants, Hive Guards, Devilbombs, Biovores, Mawlocs...), they won't freely be added to the army.
Notice that i didnt propose magical buffs for units that are working, but fix for units who have problems, that you rarely see, and underperform when you do.
There is certainly room to discuss the magnitude of a modification, but to completely reject an update on some units, because 4 units peform too well, i can't agree with that

I do appreciate your input

Broodlord also gives a fantastic buff-he doesn't need a price cut.

And Zoanthropes are murderous. Neurothropes are excellent too, but that doesn't make the Zoanthropes bad by any means.

In addition to that, you ARE buffing Nids. There's no two ways about it-Nids are in an excellent spot right now, competitively and casually, and these changes make them stronger. Unless you think that the current top end of 40k is good and desirable, you should look to nerf the OP things, rather than buff that which is only decent.

Yeah i guess you should bring OP things down and not the other option up. Nids are already Top Tier.

Specific units of Tyranids are top tier. Some units are really overshadowed to the point of never being used:

Toxicrene
Maleceptor
Lictor
Tervigon

Sure flyrants are probably OP and genestealers need to take a chill pill, but that does not mean that internal balance should not be addressed.

I don't think a single army has a unit as useless as the lictor at the moment. The Maleceptor is also a joke and Tervigon is flat out useless in matched play, and only mediocre in open play. The toxicrene, while not being bad per se, it suffers from a complete lack of identity or purpose within an army of multiple monsters, each of which is supposed to have very distinct roles (because that's what tyrandis are all about).

I think the aftermath of the seven flyrant lists on tourmanets has blinded any kind of attempt to discuss the power level of the tyranid army, which is about 30 units more than a single entry (flyrant).

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Specific units of Tyranids are top tier. Some units are really overshadowed to the point of never being used:

Toxicrene
Maleceptor
Lictor
Tervigon

Sure flyrants are probably OP and genestealers need to take a chill pill, but that does not mean that internal balance should not be addressed.

I don't think a single army has a unit as useless as the lictor at the moment. The Maleceptor is also a joke and Tervigon is flat out useless in matched play, and only mediocre in open play. The toxicrene, while not being bad per se, it suffers from a complete lack of identity or purpose within an army of multiple monsters, each of which is supposed to have very distinct roles (because that's what tyrandis are all about).

I think the aftermath of the seven flyrant lists on tourmanets has blinded any kind of attempt to discuss the power level of the tyranid army, which is about 30 units more than a single entry (flyrant).

You forgot the Haruspex

Yeah well i tend to ignore the "LOLZ I M SO ANGRY the 7 flyrant list is OP and even tho it's going to be nerfed in the FAQ, they should also nerf ALL tyranid units so we don't ever hear about them again" posts, not very constructive or interesting discussion going on there. + i do propose a point nerf to the flyrant (in addition to the future 1 per detachment nerf) so imo this discussion doesn't need to happen.

The Lictor could have a use, as a scouting anti-deepstrike unit, or a mawloc-style point blank deepstrike unit. Right now its useless, as is deathleaper.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Specific units of Tyranids are top tier. Some units are really overshadowed to the point of never being used:

Toxicrene
Maleceptor
Lictor
Tervigon

Sure flyrants are probably OP and genestealers need to take a chill pill, but that does not mean that internal balance should not be addressed.

I don't think a single army has a unit as useless as the lictor at the moment. The Maleceptor is also a joke and Tervigon is flat out useless in matched play, and only mediocre in open play. The toxicrene, while not being bad per se, it suffers from a complete lack of identity or purpose within an army of multiple monsters, each of which is supposed to have very distinct roles (because that's what tyrandis are all about).

I think the aftermath of the seven flyrant lists on tourmanets has blinded any kind of attempt to discuss the power level of the tyranid army, which is about 30 units more than a single entry (flyrant).

You forgot the Haruspex

Yeah well i tend to ignore the "LOLZ I M SO ANGRY the 7 flyrant list is OP and even tho it's going to be nerfed in the FAQ, they should also nerf ALL tyranid units so we don't ever hear about them again" posts, not very constructive or interesting discussion going on there. + i do propose a point nerf to the flyrant (in addition to the future 1 per detachment nerf) so imo this discussion doesn't need to happen.

The Lictor could have a use, as a scouting anti-deepstrike unit, or a mawloc-style point blank deepstrike unit. Right now its useless, as is deathleaper.

At least deathleaper is a character. He could hide behind deepstrikers for a turn and then manage a long charge into something squishy (like a support character). But the lictors are just a bad joke at the moment. They could be 15 pts each and they would still be unplayable. Sad, because they are my favorite unit in the army.

As for the haruspex, I never even registered its existence. Especially when the box came with the exocrine as the second build option, namely the single most useful monster in the whole book aside Hive Tyrants.