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Having an argument with my friend, he's trying to say daemons have no will of their own. I say that's bull. So many times daemons go against their gods intentions to feed etc. I mean even the greatest champions like Abaddon etc. have to put on gellar fields to travel in the warp otherwise they will be attacked by daemons and the gods don't want them to die. Even daemons of the same god will attack ahriman for instance from the lowliest neverborn to daemon princes and greater daemons.

Skarbrand tried to kill Khorne. Pretty sure that qualifies as free will.

IIRC:
- greater deamons have their own will but they have the same personality than their God.
-minor deamons like plaguebearers don't.

Daemons, especially lesser Daemons, only have the illusion of free will.
But their actions are absolutely a result of the desires of their patron. Whether directly or indirectly.

Skarbrand, for example, revolted against Khorne due to his pride and bloodlust, thinking himself as powerful as Khorne. Essentially, Skarbrand did exactly what Khorne would have done, had Khorne been the subordinate.

To say that the Chaos gods "control" the actions of their lesser daemons is not accurate, but that does not mean they have true free will. They are literally extensions of their parton.
If Tzeentch were to be utterly destroyed (not sure that's possible, but go with it) all Greater and lesser Daemons of Tzeentch would cease to exist.

-

I'd say they have as much as the gods they serve. They all seem pretty well locked into strict patterns of behaviour, so it doesn't seem that there is much free will in chaos.

Daemons can act independently. So yes. The Messenger who interacts with some space marine renegades, I forget the title, definitely acts independently.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Daemons can act independently.

Acting independently and having the determination of what those actions can be are 2 different things.
A Bloodletter may chose to do something, but as their action is predetermined to further the cause of Khorne, I would argue that it isn't "free" will.

Even when the actions seem to contradict the desires of their patron, they are most certainly motivated by those same desires, or in some way further that cause.
They cannot act contrary to this, thus they do not have "true" free will.

The second a Bloodletter decides: "Ya know what, I don't feel like taking a skull today"
Or a Plaguebears says" "Hmm, these boils itch something awful, maybe I should put some ointment on them to clear them up"
Or when a Daemonette makes the choice to restrain herself because any more would be too excessive.

Then I will concede that Daemons might have free will.
Daemons are motivated by what their patron wants and cannot choose to alter this motivation.

-

 Galef wrote:
Daemons, especially lesser Daemons, only have the illusion of free will.

Don't we all just have the illusion of free will?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Daemons, especially lesser Daemons, only have the illusion of free will.

Don't we all just have the illusion of free will?

If you are a physicist or understand physics then yes we have no free will.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Daemons, especially lesser Daemons, only have the illusion of free will.

Don't we all just have the illusion of free will?

If you are a physicist or understand physics then yes we have no free will.

Its all a interwoven processes of chemical reactions and physics that led to me and you writing these exact words on the internet, predestined since the ultimate explosion.

or not

reminds me of that futurama episode with the quantum free will unit.

Exactly, we are just the interactions of chemicals, but everything is deterministic in the universe and can be calculated and predicted, its daft to think it wouldn't apply to us. Plus in a space-time continuum like the one we live in, if you are in a position in space and present and start to accelerate in a direction then you can share time with the past or future depending on your direction and the point of view from where you calculate it, so the future is technically written, we just don't experience it, plus in relativity we share time with the past and future.

^These guys get it. Wrote a paper about the subject back in College, very interesting stuff.

 Galef wrote:

The second a Bloodletter decides: "Ya know what, I don't feel like taking a skull today"
Or a Plaguebears says" "Hmm, these boils itch something awful, maybe I should put some ointment on them to clear them up"
Or when a Daemonette makes the choice to restrain herself because any more would be too excessive.

Then I will concede that Daemons might have free will.
Daemons are motivated by what their patron wants and cannot choose to alter this motivation.

Perhaps for daemons, but if we're getting all free will over here, acting independently is free will. Just because your boss says 'do x' and you do x, does not mean you did not freely chose x. Acting in accordance with someone else's wishes or desires is a free choice in and of itself.

In addition, using physics or applying deterministic thought to free will is completely wrong, and the only way the timeline can be secure is if there is an omniscient being outside of time and space.

I think from a lot of the background there is definitely the impression given that some of them act with a level of intelligent (extremely developed in some cases, such as with Tzeentch daemons).

I've always found the concept though of an intelligent force being inherently 'evil' and with a purpose of existence just to cause pain and suffering a bit of a stumbling block, certainly more 'fantasy' than 'sci-fi', as it falls down pretty quickly to any kind of serious examination.

Interestingly I think the initial conception of Chaos (which came from the Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion books), the 'eight-fold path' (we're all familiar with the symbol of chaos) represents in some ways a complete openness and exposure to a radical knowledge, of unlimited potential. To contrast with the single arrow of 'order' (which presumably is oppitmised by the Imperium) where very little freedom of will is permitted.
So, I think the old school warhammer left a lot more room for that kind of stuff. The modern Chaos, which is less about untapped mysteries of the universe blowing your mind and more about spikes and skulls, it's very hard to say just because the conception of how daemons operate is so two dimensional and inimical to what we know about intelligence and sapience. So you can't really make a serious judgement about it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, we are just the interactions of chemicals, but everything is deterministic in the universe and can be calculated and predicted, its daft to think it wouldn't apply to us. Plus in a space-time continuum like the one we live in, if you are in a position in space and present and start to accelerate in a direction then you can share time with the past or future depending on your direction and the point of view from where you calculate it, so the future is technically written, we just don't experience it, plus in relativity we share time with the past and future.

That only applies to inanimate objects. Things like rocks are just lumps of matter that simply react to any force applied to them. We are fully capable of transforming energy into our own motion. That process of making energy our own gives us free will since we are self driving. We basically eat sunlight and turn that into thoughts.

You would have to look into neuroscience to see what exactly causes neural messages to occur, which is out of the scope of physics.

Dandelion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, we are just the interactions of chemicals, but everything is deterministic in the universe and can be calculated and predicted, its daft to think it wouldn't apply to us. Plus in a space-time continuum like the one we live in, if you are in a position in space and present and start to accelerate in a direction then you can share time with the past or future depending on your direction and the point of view from where you calculate it, so the future is technically written, we just don't experience it, plus in relativity we share time with the past and future.

That only applies to inanimate objects. Things like rocks are just lumps of matter that simply react to any force applied to them. We are fully capable of transforming energy into our own motion. That process of making energy our own gives us free will since we are self driving. We basically eat sunlight and turn that into thoughts.

You would have to look into neuroscience to see what exactly causes neural messages to occur, which is out of the scope of physics.

I don't think you understand how physics and Neuroscience works.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, we are just the interactions of chemicals, but everything is deterministic in the universe and can be calculated and predicted, its daft to think it wouldn't apply to us. Plus in a space-time continuum like the one we live in, if you are in a position in space and present and start to accelerate in a direction then you can share time with the past or future depending on your direction and the point of view from where you calculate it, so the future is technically written, we just don't experience it, plus in relativity we share time with the past and future.

That only applies to inanimate objects. Things like rocks are just lumps of matter that simply react to any force applied to them. We are fully capable of transforming energy into our own motion. That process of making energy our own gives us free will since we are self driving. We basically eat sunlight and turn that into thoughts.

You would have to look into neuroscience to see what exactly causes neural messages to occur, which is out of the scope of physics.

I don't think you understand how physics and Neuroscience works.

Then enlighten me. All I see is you applying "action and reaction" to every possible scenario in the universe. Can you prove that all neural impulses are predictable in this manner? Besides, even if you can (which I would love to find a topic on this as I only find "how" messages are transmitted and not what initiates them), we already know that quantum mechanics are unpredictable by their very nature (the probability of a quantum event occurring doesn't exist until the event occurs) which throws a wrench in the deterministic theory (i.e. even if you knew all the positions and forces at play at any one moment you would still be unable to predict quantum events)

Chaos daemons are created with a slither of their patron gods power. After that all the daemons have free will but also have an imprint of their gods emotional traits.

However, the chaos gods can at any time take the essence of any daemon from their domain, this has happened pretty often (Khorne had the bloodthirsters who failed the assault on terra all destroyed and their essence returned to him for failing him)

Chaos daemons can pursue their own agenda's and such, but it's common knowledge not to piss off the guy (or gal) who can destroy you just as easily as he(or she) created you.

Skarbrand, The masque and some other daemons are exceptions to the norm of their god taking away their essence (For skarbrand, khorne had given him this small mercy because he wanted not only to show skarbrand as an example to others that defied him, but also because he was his champion for soo long)

Dandelion wrote:


Then enlighten me. All I see is you applying "action and reaction" to every possible scenario in the universe. Can you prove that all neural impulses are predictable in this manner? Besides, even if you can (which I would love to find a topic on this as I only find "how" messages are transmitted and not what initiates them), we already know that quantum mechanics are unpredictable by their very nature (the probability of a quantum event occurring doesn't exist until the event occurs) which throws a wrench in the deterministic theory (i.e. even if you knew all the positions and forces at play at any one moment you would still be unable to predict quantum events)

Quantum mechanics gives the impression of unpredictability due to our limited understanding of the quantum world: we can't measure or detect many things at that level and those things we can measure we inadvertently interact with and therefore change the outcome of whatever experiment was running.

Quantum mechanics quite likely also undergoes deterministic behavior but we lack the technology to prove so, in fact I don't believe there are many scientists that believe quantum level molecules act in a random manor. Things aren't random: dice fall in a certain way due to the initial conditions of the roll and people act in a certain way due to past experiences and instinct.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Dandelion wrote:


Then enlighten me. All I see is you applying "action and reaction" to every possible scenario in the universe. Can you prove that all neural impulses are predictable in this manner? Besides, even if you can (which I would love to find a topic on this as I only find "how" messages are transmitted and not what initiates them), we already know that quantum mechanics are unpredictable by their very nature (the probability of a quantum event occurring doesn't exist until the event occurs) which throws a wrench in the deterministic theory (i.e. even if you knew all the positions and forces at play at any one moment you would still be unable to predict quantum events)

Quantum mechanics gives the impression of unpredictability due to our limited understanding of the quantum world: we can't measure or detect many things at that level and those things we can measure we inadvertently interact with and therefore change the outcome of whatever experiment was running.

Quantum mechanics quite likely also undergoes deterministic behavior but we lack the technology to prove so, in fact I don't believe there are many scientists that believe quantum level molecules act in a random manor. Things aren't random: dice fall in a certain way due to the initial conditions of the roll and people act in a certain way due to past experiences and instinct.

So, you're speculating... Considering how quantum events don't seem to make sense (e.g. electrons acting simultaneously as waves and particles), randomness isn't all that far fetched. But hey, maybe you're right, but until someone can prove it we're stuck saying "maybe".

Also, there is an inherent difference between living organisms and inanimate objects, that being that organisms have mechanisms to control and leverage energy. Objects are fully subjected to any and all forces that apply to them, but organisms are self propelling and can counter some of those forces with their own stored energy. So the question is: are the actions of an organism a result of a unbreakable chain of events, or are they spontaneous? In other words, are neural impulses caused or are they spontaneous? I haven't found any research that goes into this, but if you know any please share .

What about other warp entities? In the novel Blood Gorgons there’s a warband that is aligned to a minor warp entity that isn’t affiliated with the big 4. It would have free will since it isn’t beholden to any of those major players, right? There are more independent warp entities beyond the 4 chaos gods. Those 4 just rule over it. As a whole, I’d say the demons do get free will, but the once you're enthralled to a higher demon your options are take over or serve.

Also, some of y’all are trying to tackle a philosophy problem with science and vice versa. The arguments for and against free will here both fall back on “we can’t tell right now, but I think this is what happens”. Some might even call that faith.

Dandelion wrote:
So, you're speculating... Considering how quantum events don't seem to make sense (e.g. electrons acting simultaneously as waves and particles), randomness isn't all that far fetched. But hey, maybe you're right, but until someone can prove it we're stuck saying "maybe".

Electrons acting as waves and particles is not a quantum thing; all objects (particles, to rocks, to humans and beyond) have wave properties but the greater the mass of that object, the less apparent the wave-particle duality becomes. To me at least, randomness seems very far fetched; when everything else in the universe acts under certain laws (laws that we don't fully understand but still laws), it seems odd to me that things like Quantum and human function should act any differently.

Also, there is an inherent difference between living organisms and inanimate objects, that being that organisms have mechanisms to control and leverage energy. Objects are fully subjected to any and all forces that apply to them, but organisms are self propelling and can counter some of those forces with their own stored energy. So the question is: are the actions of an organism a result of a unbreakable chain of events, or are they spontaneous? In other words, are neural impulses caused or are they spontaneous? I haven't found any research that goes into this, but if you know any please share .

The clincher for me is that you can quite easily re-create organic processes in labs by performing simple chemical reactions and/or tests. We already know that reflexes are simple chemical reactions that take place due to certain stimuli, why shouldn't higher brain function be a more complex version of reflexes that takes into account past stimuli as well as current stimuli? There have been many experiments on programming minds to act in certain ways due to certain stimuli (see Pavlov's research) and we are on the verge of true AI: if we can create a true AI then that would prove that it is at least possible that the Human mindis nothing more than organic coding.

And yes it's all 'maybe' and 'what if' but that's the entirety of science, isn't it? We don't really know anything, it's all just theories; the best theories being the ones that fit in with our current theories.

All thoughts and emotions of mortals reflected and made real in the warp. Every time any living thing thinks or feels anything it has some effect in the warp. Similar things can clump together to the point of gaining a form of, i dunno, "thought". Difference between Big Four and other gods is that the Four are made of the four basic emotions while the rest are just thoughts, and since a creature doesn't need to be sapient or believe in anything to have feelings the Chaos Gods are much larger.

Daemons are just "the fingers" of gods pushing through realities, and since they are each a single emotion taken to its extreme they tend to be very destructive. It also makes them act in a very singular way since they can't really choose to do anything else, because they aren't anything but that one thing. Same way fixating to a single thing will inevitably be harmful to you, they are harmful to you.

In a way worship of chaos is the ultimate form on narcissism, it's to adoring ones own emotions to the point of revering them as gods.

Other warp entities are a collage of smaller clumps that haven't been absorbed to the larger ones, and of weirder stuff. If I remember right in a book a Navigator saw how all the crews thought from the moment of warp transit got left behind as a cloud of "things" and he wondered what would happen to them. And then there are the really weird things, like Enslavers, Vampires and Remora that are sentient species native to the warp.

If the Chaos gods win and warp bleeds over the whole galaxy they cease to be since there ain't no one left to power them up, and they can't, by their very nature, to stop trying. Grimdark.

tl;dr: In 40k Cthulhu tries to commit suicide.

My point is that free will is the ability to act against your nature willingly. I may be wrong on that, and that's a discussion for a more philosophical forum.

But if free will is indeed that ability to choose your actions, than I still hold that Daemons do not have free will.
They cannot choose to act contrary to their nature, or the nature in which their patron created them.
They will, in fact, always make the same choices in similar situations. That is not free will. That is programming.

It's possible that certain individuals like the Masque and Skarbrand we given a bit more power from their patron god and thus we able to "rebel", although in those 2 cases, the Daemon was just acting in accordance to its "programming" and just pissed off the patron.

-

 mrhappyface wrote:

Electrons acting as waves and particles is not a quantum thing; all objects (particles, to rocks, to humans and beyond) have wave properties but the greater the mass of that object, the less apparent the wave-particle duality becomes. To me at least, randomness seems very far fetched; when everything else in the universe acts under certain laws (laws that we don't fully understand but still laws), it seems odd to me that things like Quantum and human function should act any differently.

Hmm, I wasn't aware the wave-particle duality affected larger objects, I'll have to look into that.

Though, instead of "randomness", I think we would need to look more into the aspect of whether an effect can exist without a cause. If such a thing did exist, determinism would be disproven. The only major obvious one I can think of is the Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang? Did it even need a cause? I don't know and I'm not sure anyone has an answer.

 mrhappyface wrote:

The clincher for me is that you can quite easily re-create organic processes in labs by performing simple chemical reactions and/or tests. We already know that reflexes are simple chemical reactions that take place due to certain stimuli, why shouldn't higher brain function be a more complex version of reflexes that takes into account past stimuli as well as current stimuli? There have been many experiments on programming minds to act in certain ways due to certain stimuli (see Pavlov's research) and we are on the verge of true AI: if we can create a true AI then that would prove that it is at least possible that the Human mindis nothing more than organic coding.

And yes it's all 'maybe' and 'what if' but that's the entirety of science, isn't it? We don't really know anything, it's all just theories; the best theories being the ones that fit in with our current theories.

Reflexes are primarily controlled by the spinal chord via a feedback loop, which is why you don't "think" about it. But the problem with extending this logic to the brain proper is that we still don't really understand the brain. There's a lot of "this controls that" but the part that creates a consciousness is still a mystery. And who's to say our "free will" isn't the stimulus that starts a new series of reactions? It all really hinges on whether our brain can make its own stimulus somehow.
And Pavlov's dog is more a demonstration of logical association as opposed to programming AFAIK. Unless there's more to it I'm unaware of.

Though as for "organic coding", even identical twins don't have the same personality so I think there's more to the story than that.

Just finished dark imperium again and it seems the higher up the Deamons food chain you get, the more free will you have... kinda, kurgath is quite clearly an entity in its own right with ambitions of its own and the ability to “interpret” nurgles orders and will, but typhus points out that if nurgle commands then everyone must follow, whether this is it overriding the free will or just giving an order is unknown.

Dandelion wrote:
Hmm, I wasn't aware the wave-particle duality affected larger objects, I'll have to look into that.

Though, instead of "randomness", I think we would need to look more into the aspect of whether an effect can exist without a cause. If such a thing did exist, determinism would be disproven. The only major obvious one I can think of is the Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang? Did it even need a cause? I don't know and I'm not sure anyone has an answer.

That would be the determiner. Though there are many theories as to what could have started the big bang.

Reflexes are primarily controlled by the spinal chord via a feedback loop, which is why you don't "think" about it. But the problem with extending this logic to the brain proper is that we still don't really understand the brain. There's a lot of "this controls that" but the part that creates a consciousness is still a mystery. And who's to say our "free will" isn't the stimulus that starts a new series of reactions? It all really hinges on whether our brain can make its own stimulus somehow.

The Spinal Collumn is a relatively simple assortment of neurons, the brain is far more complex assortment of neurons (with some more specialised neurons) so it would make sense for me for the Brain to work in a similar but far more complex fashion to the Spinal Cord.

And Pavlov's dog is more a demonstration of logical association as opposed to programming AFAIK. Unless there's more to it I'm unaware of.

The original premise yes but further research has gone into looking into more complex programming of the brain (a big example would be the rumours of the Americans and Russians programming people to spy during the Cold War, whether they did do stuff like this, I wouldn't know).

Though as for "organic coding", even identical twins don't have the same personality so I think there's more to the story than that.

No but Identical twins don't experience the same stimuli as each other, the organic code/AI all depends on what input the code is presented with.

 mrhappyface wrote:

snip

I suppose the only way we'll know is if true AI is ever created. I'm just going to remain skeptical till then.
Good chat though.

I'll stop derailing the thread now...

Dandelion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

snip

I suppose the only way we'll know is if true AI is ever created. I'm just going to remain skeptical till then.
Good chat though.

I'll stop derailing the thread now...

Well if an AI is programmed to have free will is it free will or programmed will?

 Desubot wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

snip

I suppose the only way we'll know is if true AI is ever created. I'm just going to remain skeptical till then.
Good chat though.

I'll stop derailing the thread now...

Well if an AI is programmed to have free will is it free will or programmed will?

Don't do this to me! AGHHH!