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My friend is branching into AoS, and asked me to give it a try, so i'm going to. I am a competitive 40k player. However, I view this more as beer & pretzels, i will not be playing competitively in AoS.

Could use some help understanding what is going on in this game. I know there's soup to some degree. For instance, Beastclaw Raiders and Orruks are chaos, so you can bring them in the same army.

He's going to play Sigmar Marines. So, that's out for me. And, i would probably avoid the "Order" group so we don't have mirror matches when we play (those suck). Although the fish elves look neat.

I'm not looking for overall power rankings, or trying to pick the most powerful faction. But i would like to avoid the "Grey Knights" of Sigmar (total garbage), or the "Sisters of Battle" of Sigmar (outdated model lines). I would also want to avoid the legacy fantasy stuff entirely, considering i have heard that it is going to be eliminated from matched play (at least in 40k, no one ever plays outside of matched play, even for the most casual of casual games).

Things I like:

Big dragons & monsters
Spells
Fighting in melee
New plastic models
Round bases

Help please!

Orruks and Beastclaw Raiders are Destruction.
Chaos is anything that has extra, mutant-y bits.

Ironjawz aren't a bad option given your criteria. There's even a Warscroll Battalion that incorporates Beastclaw Raiders stuff in there IIRC.

Big dragons & monsters
Spells
Fighting in melee
New plastic models
Round bases

This would lean me towards Destruction, Ironjaws specifically as well to be honest. Other alternative is also Deamons (less new), but you could benefit from using them in 40K if you really wanted or AoS doesn't work out for you.

I also think that if you play competitively in 40K you will get a taste for the competitive AoS play and realise its a wholeee other ball game. Very fun and hard to master, despite its *simple outlook!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Orruks and Beastclaw Raiders are Destruction.
Chaos is anything that has extra, mutant-y bits.

Ironjawz aren't a bad option given your criteria. There's even a Warscroll Battalion that incorporates Beastclaw Raiders stuff in there IIRC.

Oh, right. Duh, my bad. Chaos is essentially the same as in 40k.

What about these fish elves?

So AOS is still using formations then? At least that makes list building easier. Pick a formation and build to it.

Formations in AoS cost points. Generally too many. I've found it way better to use whatever you want.

pm713 wrote:
Formations in AoS cost points. Generally too many. I've found it way better to use whatever you want.

Oh wow. So essentially it's open play?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Orruks and Beastclaw Raiders are Destruction.
Chaos is anything that has extra, mutant-y bits.

Ironjawz aren't a bad option given your criteria. There's even a Warscroll Battalion that incorporates Beastclaw Raiders stuff in there IIRC.

Oh, right. Duh, my bad. Chaos is essentially the same as in 40k.

What about these fish elves?

In general, if they build cities and resist Chaos and have a pulse? They'll be Order.

Idoneth are Order, same as Scourge Privateers(raiders and beasttamers), Daughters of Khaine(crazed Witch Aelf cultists following the "old ways" of BLOODBLOODBLOOD!...now with Medusae and Harpies!), and Darkling Covens(Dark Elf Sorceresses, Executioners/Black Guard, Warriors--the males are apparently kept under a magical 'thrall' to the Sorceress Covens).

So AOS is still using formations then? At least that makes list building easier. Pick a formation and build to it.

They are, but sometimes they just aren't worth it thanks to the fact that they've boosted the points costs of them fairly heavily.

With that said, if you like the looks of the Ironjawz?
Their Start Collecting is freaking amazing. $85 gets you Gore-Gruntas(boar riders!), rebadged Black Orruks, and the Ironjawz Drummer.

Gore-Gruntas are $79 by themselves.

You also have the Ironjawz Warband they released for Skirmish. It gets you a Shaman(gorgeous and fun model to build+paint), a set of Brutes(biggerer Orruks with some sweet, sweet weapons), and half of a box of Black Orruks.

 Marmatag wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Formations in AoS cost points. Generally too many. I've found it way better to use whatever you want.

Oh wow. So essentially it's open play?

No there are limits depending on your points. Generally it's a required amount of battleline and a limit on leaders and monsters. Plus you have to stay within your faction for some things like faction benefits but I'm not massively up to date on those.

The warscroll builder does a decent job of showing the limitations and requirements at the point levels.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

 Marmatag wrote:

Oh wow. So essentially it's open play?

Not really. Most people tend to use the Matched Play rules and points.

Older books(Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, and Seraphon) don't have their points in them. You'd have to snag a copy of the General's Handbook for those.
Newer books do have the points in them, along with rules for how to generate for "Path to Glory" warbands.

I'll try to divide your questions up and answer them as best I as I can.

1) What is going on / how do allegiances work?

I'm assuming matched play and access to the Generals Handbook (which is very important).

In AoS when you build an army the first thing you need to do is pick an allegiance. This can be done in one of two ways. You can pick a Grand Alliance (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction) and gain access to a wide variety of models and abilities. Or you can take one of the focused allegiances (from either the Generals Handbook or one of the many Battletomes) and have your choices greatly restricted, but gain access to more powerful special rules and abilities for those models.

Once you've picked an allegiance you'll look for all the units with matching keywords (on the unit's warscroll at the bottom; units are also lumped into their own allegiance sections in the Generals Handbook or in their own Battletomes) and build your army from that pool. In Age of Sigmar you build the equivalent of a single detachment with unit allotments and ally points based on the size of the game you play. Allies are heavily restricted and listed on the faction breakdown. Any reference to Battleline units you see are the equivalent to Troops in 40K and Heroes are the rough equivalent of H.Q..

I suggest playing around with this: https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

2) Order is a huge pool of widely disparate factions. Unless you both go Grand Alliance Order and have similar playstyles you should be fine. Most of the order factions have widely varying battle methodologies and lore. Just a couple of examples: The Idoneth are soul-thieves that fight with a peculiar rhythm, the Daughters of Khaine are cold blooded murderers that storm across the battlefield at alarming speed, and the Kharadron Overlords are self interested traders that utilize transports and massed guns to win their battles. That contrasts immensely with the heroic themes of the SCEs.

3) Stick to allegiances with books. Generally speaking if it has a Battletome you are safe. Most factions balance well against one another. Although friends don't let friends play Tzeentch.

4) As for you? I think if you like the Idoneth they are definitely worth looking into. Beastclaw Raiders and Death do monsters well (depending on your preferred flavor of monster). SCEs, some older models in General Alliance Order, Death, and Ironjawz all have dragons or general dragon equivalents.

Wow this is great information.

I like the Orruks. And their start collecting box looks pretty sweet.

We're going to have a playtest game. My buddy bought both start collectings (because, you know, disposable income) so i'll get to play the Orks before going down that road.

In general I like Cavalry and mobility for my fighters. I've found that is generally what i enjoy. I hate feeling slow on the battlefield, even if i have to give up some staying power to achieve that.

I think i'm getting it in regards to the warscrolls.

Essentially you don't have to pick formations, but you are rewarded for specializing. I'm not clear exactly what those bonuses are, but i suppose that's where you actually need to buy the content (as in, where the rubber meets the road).

It seems like the fish elves aren't out yet. That's a bummer. I am doing research on them but a release date isn't confirmed?

Idoneth are soon.
The book, the Eidolon, the sword-wielding slaves, and the Soul-Warden character(dude with the octopus) go up for preorder on Saturday.
The rest will be staggered out over the next few weeks.

The "content" is in the army books, just so you know. That with the fluff makes them a fairly good value.

Maw-Krushas coupled with Gore-Gruntas are a nasty bit of "Waaagh!".

Also worth mentioning that the Start Collectings all have formations in there that do not get pointed because the point of them is specifically for narrative/open play and for learning with them.

Hmm, if there's a start collecting that would be nice.

I do like the giant space turtle

 Marmatag wrote:
Hmm, if there's a start collecting that would be nice.

You'd be waiting quite some time for that.

Start Collecting sets never come out with the faction, they come out months if not a year or so later.
I'm expecting Idoneth to get one around Christmas like the Overlords did.

Well, regardless, they are really cool looking.

I would probably start with them. Orruks are neat, too, but it seems like they're fairly limited in model variety overall. Ironjawz have like 5 total units.

 Marmatag wrote:
Well, regardless, they are really cool looking.

I would probably start with them. Orruks are neat, too, but it seems like they're fairly limited in model variety overall. Ironjawz have like 5 total units.

Yeeah...that's because most of the armies that launched early on in the lifespan of AoS were fairly small. A lot of the big differences will come from Allegiance abilities and things like that(think army traits like we're seeing in 40k right now).

Ironjawz has their Warchanter, the Shaman, Megaboss on Foot and Megaboss on Maw-Krusha or Gordrakk. So 5 heroes(2 building from the same kit--Maw Krusha).
Then they have the Brutes, Gore-Gruntas, and 'Ardboys(the Black Orks).

Grand total of 8 profiles--but with a few options on some of them. The Megaboss on Maw-Krusha has a few different weapons he can take and the Brutes and 'Ardboys have similar.
For example on units of the Brutes? You can either take the unit with "Jagged Gore-Hackas"(two handed weapons) or the unit with "Two Brute Choppas".
It's the same unit either way, both of them can have 1 in 5 models armed with a "massive Gore-Choppa"(a giiiiiiiiiiant two handed weapon). The Brute Boss(leader) of the unit can take a Brute Klaw and Brute Smasha or a Brute Choppa.


With AoS, there's generally going to be fewer units in the earlier armies but those armies will have a few options of toys to play with that will be across the whole unit.
Idoneth look to have similar amounts of variety but added to that they have a bit just more thrown into them compared to the Ironjawz because Ironjawz were introduced alongside Beastclaw Raiders and they actually had a few things added during the campaign books where it was formations of the two together or with Giants added in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh dayum, something I hadn't even considered:

Maggotkin of Nurgle!
You've got the Maggoth Lords(the guys mounted on the beasties), the Glottkin(a trio of brothers who act as a single unit), the Blightkings(the mortals riding on the Plague Drones), etc.

They've got a very interesting mechanic in regards to the whole "Corruption" thing--and if your friend is starting Stormcast, that Blight War box is a killer setup for the both of you since Daemons aren't set off in their own book like they are in 40k.

 Marmatag wrote:


Big dragons & monsters
Spells
Fighting in melee
New plastic models
Round bases

Sounds like you could field a good death army with that as well. The've got big zombie dragons and mortarchs on dread abyssals and lots of plastic kits (noticeable exception being the vampire knights/characters). Most of their range is fairly new (from 2012, except for zombies, fel bats, bat swarms) with additions from end times.

They have some of the largest (like actually model size) "elite shock infantry" in the form of Morghasts, have lots of magic support from necromancers and vampires (although the latter are all metal/finecast).

They are definitely no longer the "Grey knights" of Warhammer (pains me to say this, because I main GKs in 40k and agree with you).

So yeah, it's different, more boney aesthetic, but Legions of Nagash does tick all of these boxes)

I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.

Orruks are appealing in that sense, if you've got a Maw-Krusha, a couple Warchanters, and some troops, you should be solid, without selling your soul to Duncan.

 Marmatag wrote:
I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.

It's going to be fairly...interesting from the way I've seen it. You can go crazy or you can make a relatively 'elite' force.

Orruks are appealing in that sense, if you've got a Maw-Krusha, a couple Warchanters, and some troops, you should be solid, without selling your soul to Duncan.

That's actually why I suggested the Skirmish and Start Collecting sets. Both of them are really good deals.
SC Ironjawz is:
$79 for the Gore-Gruntas
$30 for the Warchanter
Can't accurately price the Ardboys since they come 15 to a box for $53 and this set gives you 10(the minimum unit size)

The Warband is:
$33 for the Shaman
$50 for the Brutes
Again, can't price the Ardboys since they come 15 to a box for $53 and this set gives you 5.

For Skirmish/Path to Glory, the 5 Ardboys isn't a huge deal since they'll be high points and absolute terrors for most armies to deal with.

$65 and $85 for those two boxes gives you:
5 Brutes
A Warchanter
A Shaman
3 Gore-Gruntas
and
A unit of 15 Ardboys

Priced out individually?
$245 USD for that stuff.
Buying them with those two bundles?
$150

Saves you $95--enough for a second Start Collecting if you want more Gore-Gruntas(which I cannot stress enough: you do. )
OR for a Megaboss on foot and a second box of Brutes by themselves.

 Marmatag wrote:
I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.

Most Nagash armies tend to be him, 2 blocks of skeletons infantry (40 man blocks with spears), a necromancer and an elite block (some use Grave guard for this, although I prefer morghasts Archai/harbingers with halberds).

That gets you 2k points. Not a lot of wiggle room to scale down in points if you go for such a specialised army however.

A Legions of Nagash force can take a myriad of forms due to multiple allegiances being built into the book itself. It pulls from the entirety of Death (as it currently stands) barring the Flesh Eater Courts. The force can generally do it all. Monsters, hordes, cavalry, mages, elite units like Vampires and Morghasts, etc. With each allegiance specializing in its own form of warfare.

On the tabletop the army feels robust. A lot like Necrons really. They just keep coming back.

So, I figured i'd follow up since some times has gone by -

I made the decision to go down the Legions of Nagash road.

I feel it translates well from 40k, and the playstyle that works for me there. Screen big units and use a host of threats to attack / hold objectives. And casting spells is what it's all about. Really enjoy that Nagash has a billion spells to pick from, which is a wonderful refresher from 40k where i have only 6 no matter how kickass your psyker is supposed to be.

I got the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde, and Nagash himself. I don't know how often i'll actually get to play Nagash, but it is far and away the coolest model i've seen by GW. I should have a picture up by July of him LOL. I also bought the Battletome, which i found to be a very high quality book overall. (anyone else like that new book smell? Reminds me of opening old school magic cards).

I was very surprised to see that the units in this start collecting box can be configured in quite a few different ways.

For instance, I have several decisions to make in my very immediate future:

1. What hero to take? I will probably go with Arkhan here. The box seems to lack mortal wounds, and his unique spell has some real potential. Also, his hat is neat. To use a reddit meme... change my mind! If i'm going purely on the "looks cool" factor Arkhan seems the way to go. And you can't go wrong with cool.

2. Hexwraiths or Black Knights? At first glance I cannot envision a scenario where Black Knights are superior to Hexwraiths. Like how is this even a choice? Am i missing something with black knights?

3. The skeletons are my little basic bitch buddies, In reality i see leaning towards grave guard. I doubt they can be built this way, but hey, never hurts to ask. I also have sepulchural guard from Shadespire. Is there a way to leverage these guys, too? They're decent models in and of themselves.

Other small notes- i'm having trouble figuring out how many spells exactly these guys can cast per turn. It looks like Nagash knows 3 of your choice and can cast quite a few. Arkhan knows the ones described, and also +1 of his choice. But not sure how many he can actually cast.

Does locus of the Shyish work with Nagash and Arkhan regardless of my "faction" (Nagash, Sacrament of <insert here>, etc)?

Thanks everyone.

Sepulchral Guard do have rules for AoS...but the Shadespire stuff tends to be questionable in AoS proper.

Personally, I'm a fan of Black Knights since you can run them as part of a fighty Deathrattle force while Hexwraiths are Nighthaunt and can't get bonus modifiers to their saves(or negatives!).

As a note, don't turn your nose up at this box:
Deathrattle Barrow Lords is another one of those limited run Skirmish/Allies bundles.
$65 for a Wight King, Grave Guard($40 by themselves!), and a set of Black Knights/Hexwraiths? Yeeeeeeeeesss please.

There is also the Nighthaunt Tormented Spirits box which is, again, another of those Skirmish/Allies bundles. $55 for a Cairn Wraith, Black Knights, and a set of Spirit Hosts.

We don't know when/if those will go away...but yeah. Worth mentioning.

Also, Arkhan is likely part of the Warscroll Battalion in the box right? I'd go with him at first just on that basis alone.

Yeah, Arkhan is in the warscroll. I was just surprised it could be built as all 3.

The deathrattle barrow lords does seem like a good deal - but i'm in no major hurry to grow this force. I almost picked up this as a starting box honestly. It was Arkhan that drove the decision to go with the Skeleton Horde.

My problem with Black knights is the lack of rend... My buddy runs sigmar and always has a 2+ save with rerollable 1s. Gross!

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, Arkhan is in the warscroll. I was just surprised it could be built as all 3.

Remember that if there's no feasible way for the kit to be split out; they don't do it.

The deathrattle barrow lords does seem like a good deal - but i'm in no major hurry to grow this force. I almost picked up this as a starting box honestly. It was Arkhan that drove the decision to go with the Skeleton Horde.

My problem with Black knights is the lack of rend... My buddy runs sigmar and always has a 2+ save with rerollable 1s. Gross!

Yeah, a lot of armies suffer from a lack of Rend.

For 40 points you get...

Base better save (4+ passive, versus 5+)
Base better weapon (rend -1)
Can deal mortal wounds (flying over a unit, and on hit)

Both are summonable, meaning i can heal / restore them to life.

At the end of the day I feel like skeletons and grave guard will be the chaff I need. Just at first glance.

This could be totally stupid but i'll give my general plan.

Nagash screened by grave guards and skeletons. I would like 1 big squad of grave guard that can be restored by Nagash, and possibly a necromancer. perhaps i'll still run Arkhan at 2000 but i doubt it with Nagash hanging around.

Then i'll have Morghasts, and Hexwraiths to be my elite vanguard. Hopefully i can control the board and force people to fight on my terms. Rather than using Nagash as purely a mortal wound engine, i'll use him to buff my models (- wound rolls, etc) and debuff my opponent.

Maybe i'll get rolled. But, it's a plan...

If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.

 auticus wrote:
If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.

So, this isn't tournament level AoS.

This just a few of us trying it out for the first time. Maybe he lucked into a competitive build, but my friend is no power gamer.

I'm hoping there will be bay area narrative groups. Because, that is how i'd like to play it. Hopefully there's a group that will allow me to play with Nagash, too. I don't know if he's super competitive or what, he just looks cool.

 Marmatag wrote:

 auticus wrote:
If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.

So, this isn't tournament level AoS.

This just a few of us trying it out for the first time. Maybe he lucked into a competitive build, but my friend is no power gamer.

I'm hoping there will be bay area narrative groups. Because, that is how i'd like to play it. Hopefully there's a group that will allow me to play with Nagash, too. I don't know if he's super competitive or what, he just looks cool.

What's he running, out of curiosity? I gather it's Stormcast--but it's weird if he's got 2+ saves with rerolls.

There's an HQ unit that has a command ability to improve a save by 1.

The Drake riders already have a 3+ rerolling 1s, and if they get a 6, they heal a wound.

So with that command ability, they have a 2+ rerolling 1s, and a save roll of 6 heals them.

Meaning, if you bring AP0 weapons against them, it's more likely you will heal them, then damage them.