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Title.

I don't think that it is a good approach to bring alphastrikes in check.

Shooty armies were the problem from the very beginning, against melee threats you can simply use a screen. T1 overwhelming firepower was the main issue (in my opinion), now those armies have an even bigger advantage against non-shooty lists as they don't have to worry about the first turn. Screening units will still be a requirement, but with the changes I think there will be a big shift to gunline armies again.

Opinions?

 Kopy wrote:
Title.

I don't think that it is a good approach to bring alphastrikes in check.

Shooty armies were the problem from the very beginning, against melee threats you can simply use a screen. T1 overwhelming firepower was the main issue (in my opinion), now those armies have an even bigger advantage against non-shooty lists as they don't have to worry about the first turn. Screening units will still be a requirement, but with the changes I think there will be a big shift to gunline armies again.

Opinions?

Pretty much agreed. The rule is almost DOA. We need some version of it, but not this.

Yeah, I’ve been struggling to see why people think melee alpha strikes are such a prevalent and terrible thing. There are very few armies that can do them, and those that can do because it’s the only way to survive. And it’s also fluffy.

It should only be if you go first, if you go second clearly the first player had time to attack so you should be able to still deep strike close turn one. And if you're a Deep Striking army going first you'd just be able to move closer with the stuff starting on the table and then proceed with the plans turn two.

Azoqu wrote:
It should only be if you go first, if you go second clearly the first player had time to attack so you should be able to still deep strike close turn one. And if you're a Deep Striking army going first you'd just be able to move closer with the stuff starting on the table and then proceed with the plans turn two.

Gun line would take bottom of turn 1 as much as possible.

Well my friends IG army went from 12cp to 20 cp and my marines went from 3 to 5 so.... it's not just DS that effects big gunlines...

But honestly... I only ever sent my terminators and kptas in t1 if there was a big shooty scary unit i needed to stop.... in 7th edition I would normally save my DS for important missions. I honestly think they need to fix shooting and that will probably relax a lot of casual DS players.

Also it was funny... the dev talks about how everyone gets blown off the table turn 1 by shooting and then says he nerfed cc.... My jaw dropped.

 lolman1c wrote:
Well my friends IG army went from 12cp to 20 cp and my marines went from 3 to 5 so.... it's not just DS that effects big gunlines...

You mean 6 to 8?

Gunlines were pretty much non-existent in competitive 40k. Are they getting a buff? I think so. I also think its needed.

Azoqu wrote:
It should only be if you go first, if you go second clearly the first player had time to attack so you should be able to still deep strike close turn one. And if you're a Deep Striking army going first you'd just be able to move closer with the stuff starting on the table and then proceed with the plans turn two.

Problem with even that is that it still hurts h2h deep strikers more than shooters. Enemy can push their screen so far that you would be getting closer to enemy(and to better charge odds!) by foot than deep strike! So about only h2h deep strike that can still work at all are expensive elite 3d6" charging one. Cheap ones like kommando's are just plain screwed. You are better off taking more boyz instead. You get turn 2 charge with better odds than with kommandos against any half-decent player.

Kommandos would now need big increase in gaming board sizes so that the ability to set up would be bigger help but that would really kill ork boyz so...That would be bad trade off. Now if board would be bigger so that there would be like 24" BEHIND enemy where he can't just deploy while leaving distance between armies on T1 same that would make kommandos useful. But on 6'x4' kommandos are now liability.

I play a CSM gunline. This is a good buff.

Instead of worrying about turn 2 charges, I'm looking at turn 3.

Another round to shoot off 25 lascannons means more tanks die early, fewer CPs are spent on Stratagems, and I can spread my screen out a little further to ensure deep strikers don't get near the dangerous stuff.

It has me thinking the real purpose of the change is not to eliminate 1st turn charges, but to make going first less important. No way I want to be shooting at a field of stuff that has yet to arrive, I would rather go second to maximize my opportunities to shoot at things on the table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Well my friends IG army went from 12cp to 20 cp and my marines went from 3 to 5 so.... it's not just DS that effects big gunlines...

You mean 6 to 8?

Ah... forgot about the orginal 3... yes. But also his is now 23 XD

I think anything over like 10 or 12 command points is overkill. Especially for guard who already recycle CP. They will never use up that many. It's wasted resources.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I think anything over like 10 or 12 command points is overkill. Especially for guard who already recycle CP. They will never use up that many. It's wasted resources.

Thing is you don't NEED that recycling that much anymore. More CP's from start+getting from enemy strategems is enough leaving warlord trait for other uses like master of command, draconian disclipianiar or if your enemy has something big like Magnus/Mortarion old grudge.

That's the big help pure guard got from the CP change. They get more than enough CP while allowing other warlord traits. Before grand strategist was pretty much auto choice except maybe if you took brigade. Now others are viable options.

 Kopy wrote:
Title.

I don't think that it is a good approach to bring alphastrikes in check.

Shooty armies were the problem from the very beginning, against melee threats you can simply use a screen. T1 overwhelming firepower was the main issue (in my opinion), now those armies have an even bigger advantage against non-shooty lists as they don't have to worry about the first turn. Screening units will still be a requirement, but with the changes I think there will be a big shift to gunline armies again.

Opinions?

There are rules that were a strong leesh on alpha deepstrike :
- movement phase is eaten
- must do a 9+ charge

And with the new beta rules, there is no alpha deepstrike anymore.

Meanwhile, Turn 1 Crippling shooting is completely unnafected, and got a direct boost. If a shooty army has turn 1, they have will have 2 full rounds of free shooting, enough to cripple any army outthere (turn 1 could already be deadly)

There seems to be a bias against melee in 8th edition overall, and it's been confirmed with this FAQ.

I like the idea going around where you can't shoot into the enemy's deployment zone on turn one. Makes the first turn be all about jockying for position, and screws over boring static gunlines big time because without a mobile element of some kind they're completely wasting their first turn.

That's a) too far b) way too gamey. Some suspension of disbelief is required or you might just as well play chess.

I think that gunline armies just got a needed buff. I play both shooty and melee armies (Astra+tyranids). Where tyranids was able to charge first turn, swarmlord catapulting genestealers, my guard gunline had problems taking objectives. Every turn that melee armies spend at close combat (screens or not), they are safe from shooting. + They are more mobile to take objectives.

They are in combat on their turn. On your turn you simply step back with your few lasguns and shoot. Turn 1 they will not be assaulting anything but chaff either.

Objectives is true enough but hey that's what T2 scions can be used landing on their backlines. And gunline needs SOMETHING to be weakness.

 Spreelock wrote:
I think that gunline armies just got a needed buff. I play both shooty and melee armies (Astra+tyranids). Where tyranids was able to charge first turn, swarmlord catapulting genestealers, my guard gunline had problems taking objectives. Every turn that melee armies spend at close combat (screens or not), they are safe from shooting. + They are more mobile to take objectives.

Fall Back rule says hi.

After all the nerfs at conscripts? After all the points increase at manticore and wyvern? Direct shooting can also be avoided covering behind terrain.. I just played a tournament with 10 indirect firing tanks and I was placed last with 3/60points.

So what if deploying your army was part of the first round?
Instead of setting up everything beforehand, the players have to move their units onto the battlefield turn 1. The player who goes first can't cripple anything sicne there are no enemy models on the board and focusses on positioning. The player who goes second has the advantage of being able to shoot, but everything that arrives has moved, of course, and he (probably) won't be close enough to the enemy to shoot at him with anything but long range guns.

You could add that deep strikers can only arrive in your own table half at the first turn and maybe give scouts the option to basically move twice their movement value during turn 1. Or something like that....

Basic idea is moving onto the battlefield as part of the first turn.

They're better now, but why's it unnecessary? Proper gunline lists have barely been appearing in big top 8s in recent months.

 Spreelock wrote:
After all the nerfs at conscripts? After all the points increase at manticore and wyvern? Direct shooting can also be avoided covering behind terrain.. I just played a tournament with 10 indirect firing tanks and I was placed last with 3/60points.

So? Infantry squads are fine. Basilisk>manticore. Terrain...8th ed means that unless terrain is custom built no LOS blocking really exists. GW official terrain(common enough) has all those windows etc that hiding any significant stuff is real hard since you need to see only tiny slice of one guy to shoot entire squad off.

Try comparing infantry squads or conscripts to chaos cultists, as they really needed the nerf. One of my last games were against 120 cultists that kept summoning back with tide of traitors.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
So what if deploying your army was part of the first round?

Gets very busy at the table edges in larger games and also requires a side-table or more time to deploy from your carry case. Plus all the 'start of turn' stuff that some armies rely on more than others.

But you could roll some of the effects into the first turn - treat everything as moving for the purposes of shooting, prevent indirect fire from non-stationary units. Just a little to take the edge off.

 Spreelock wrote:
Try comparing infantry squads or conscripts to chaos cultists, as they really needed the nerf. One of my last games were against 120 cultists that kept summoning back with tide of traitors.

Well look at that. Tide of traitor got hit by a nerfbat.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
So what if deploying your army was part of the first round?
Instead of setting up everything beforehand, the players have to move their units onto the battlefield turn 1. The player who goes first can't cripple anything sicne there are no enemy models on the board and focusses on positioning. The player who goes second has the advantage of being able to shoot, but everything that arrives has moved, of course, and he (probably) won't be close enough to the enemy to shoot at him with anything but long range guns.

You could add that deep strikers can only arrive in your own table half at the first turn and maybe give scouts the option to basically move twice their movement value during turn 1. Or something like that....

Basic idea is moving onto the battlefield as part of the first turn.

I really like that idea. Forward scouts actually approaching forward before the army, some of the heavier units could have rules to show up on the later turns too!

Buuuut I don't know how it would be from a gameplay perspective. There's a few rules that would be really janky if so

Major problem could be slow big armies simply fitting on board. Good luck with greentide...

 greyknight12 wrote:
Yeah, I’ve been struggling to see why people think melee alpha strikes are such a prevalent and terrible thing. There are very few armies that can do them, and those that can do because it’s the only way to survive. And it’s also fluffy.

Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
So what if deploying your army was part of the first round?
Instead of setting up everything beforehand, the players have to move their units onto the battlefield turn 1. The player who goes first can't cripple anything sicne there are no enemy models on the board and focusses on positioning. The player who goes second has the advantage of being able to shoot, but everything that arrives has moved, of course, and he (probably) won't be close enough to the enemy to shoot at him with anything but long range guns.

You could add that deep strikers can only arrive in your own table half at the first turn and maybe give scouts the option to basically move twice their movement value during turn 1. Or something like that....

Basic idea is moving onto the battlefield as part of the first turn.

This is a cool idea. I suspect a things would need reworking but the idea is a good one.