Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, since everyone plays this way I know I'm just being an idiot and missing the rule, so can I ask what page is the rule on that makes a -1 on a roll to hit of 2 explode a plasma?

And also why people seem to think this doesn't extend to reroll 1s to hit then? At least a good number of people I see (Though just the page number so I can go read it myself since I'm obviously missing something.)

NerdExtrodinare wrote:
Ok, since everyone plays this way I know I'm just being an idiot and missing the rule, so can I ask what page is the rule on that makes a -1 on a roll to hit of 2 explode a plasma?

And also why people seem to think this doesn't extend to reroll 1s to hit then? At least a good number of people I see (Though just the page number so I can go read it myself since I'm obviously missing something.)

What is 2 -1?

What number causes plasma to explode?

It says "When you roll a 1" but tons -tons- of people treat it like a -1 on your roll (aka roll a 2 to hit, and then -1 due to other units abilities) make it explode.

NerdExtrodinare wrote:
It says "When you roll a 1" but tons -tons- of people treat it like a -1 on your roll (aka roll a 2 to hit, and then -1 due to other units abilities) make it explode.

Yes, because rolling a 2 with a -1 to hit, is rolling a 1. Because 2 - 1 = 1.

Take Tesla for example. On a roll of 6 to hit, you get 2 extra hits. Firing at a unit that is -1 to hit, you cannot roll a 6 to hit. So you never get the benefit of Tesla.

NerdExtrodinare wrote:
Ok, since everyone plays this way I know I'm just being an idiot and missing the rule, so can I ask what page is the rule on that makes a -1 on a roll to hit of 2 explode a plasma?

And also why people seem to think this doesn't extend to reroll 1s to hit then? At least a good number of people I see (Though just the page number so I can go read it myself since I'm obviously missing something.)

Hit rolls are determined after modifiers. A "roll" of two with a -1 is a hit roll of 1. Hence why a 2 blows up. You should also note that dice cannot be modified below 1. So a roll of 1 with a -1 is still just a roll of 1. As such, if plasma has a -1 to hit then rolls of 1 or 2 blow up.

If you want to see the ruling on that, check the designer's commentary:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Yeah, but that's not the same as "rolling a" you end up with the results of a 5, but you rolled a 6. And rereading the rules just now I'm actually becoming more confident that people that say that are wrong, has this been FAQed or something? Because even the phrasing in the rules is either on my side or open to interpretation.

Ooh one moment just saw your post Dandelion, finally actual data I can read.


Update: Well that's just idiotic, but at least it answers the question. Thanks.

Ok, so then if "when you roll a 1" means a hard dice roll of 1. How do you explain the abilities that say "when you roll a +7"?

I don't know, I don't have any of that in my armies.

I simply don't like the logic of "I have this technology, or shield or whatever that makes it harder for you to hit... Also it some how makes your guns explode more often."

Also, it has been faq'ed to be what we though, that a +1 make plasma unable to explode, a -1 make plasma explode on 2's, etc.

VoidSempai wrote:
Also, it has been faq'ed to be what we though, that a +1 make plasma unable to explode, a -1 make plasma explode on 2's, etc.

Indeed, and finally someone gave me the faq! ^.^ I may not agree with the rule but at least I now actually have the rule.

So can we reroll modified rolls of 1 as well using take aim?

 slip wrote:
So can we reroll modified rolls of 1 as well using take aim?

No because the rules state that you re-roll before applying modifiers.
So at the time you need to choose to re-roll that dice is still a 2.

 slip wrote:
So can we reroll modified rolls of 1 as well using take aim?

No, re-rolls apply before modifiers.

Thanks!

Does seem kinda silly that if you aim at a vehicle that uses its smoke launchers your plasma guns are more likely to misfire. When I play with my group, we have a house rule about this, so it’s only a “hard roll”.

I can’t argue with the RAW but doesn’t mean I have to like it.

This scenario is exactly where the game breaks. Ill explain.

Using over charged plasma on a unit the has a -1 to hit modifier. SO all rolls of 2 and 1 are explodes results. With me so far.

A 2 is counted as one for the sake of the plasma explodes, BUT not counted as a 1 for the re-roll 1's ability.

Its is really a Bs rules conundrum. If its a 1 for all intensive explodes purposes then it should get a re-roll. It does not. It flies in the face of logic.

The best way to fix this -1 to hit thing for the entire game, is to say an unmodified roll of 1, or 6 activates the good or bad. So a roll of a 2 still misses but doesn't count as one for damage and not re-rolls, and a hard 6 activates tesla even if theres a -1 to hit since a 5 is a hit, and a 6 always hits. the modifiers cause more confusion the they help.

IT truly is a slap your face WTF moment.

the unmodified caveat should apply to any roll that triggers on a specific number . Normally these specifics are limited to 1's and 6's and is a simpler fix than its a 1 for damages but not for hits or re-olls.

No, it doesn't fly in the face of logic.

Re-rolls apply before modifiers - this is a good thing. It lowers the power of abilities that provides re-rolls, which helps prevent them from getting more out of hand.

Sorry that you don't like the way a rule plays, and immediately feel the need to declare it "idiotic", because you want to play it differently than it's written.

As far as the fluff aspect of plasma guns over-heating more often when shooting at a unit with a -1 to-hit modifier; think of it as the plasma gunners (and other types of units) are firing more often trying to hit a target - such as a hidden target, an extremely fast/manueverable flier, etc - and because they're firing more often, the weapon is more likely to overheat, malfunction, etc.

The game is an abstraction of rates of fire, reload speed, accuracy, etc, etc. It's not a 1:1 translation - don't treat it in that context.

Re-rolls would be disproportionately useful if they applied after modifiers.

fe40k wrote:
Re-rolls apply before modifiers - this is a good thing. It lowers the power of abilities that provides re-rolls, which helps prevent them from getting more out of hand.

Yep - re-rolls applying before modifiers is just how it is in WH40K.

fe40k wrote:
As far as the fluff aspect of plasma guns over-heating more often when shooting at a unit with a -1 to-hit modifier; think of it as the plasma gunners (and other types of units) are firing more often trying to hit a target - such as a hidden target, an extremely fast/manueverable flier, etc - and because they're firing more often, the weapon is more likely to overheat, malfunction, etc.

Personally I think the plasma rule should have been written so modifiers don't affect the roll that causes an explosion (I don't buy the explanation above about shooting more often because it applies if you only shoot the once), but it's been clarified in the Designers' Commentary so that's that. Sometimes rules are less realistic to make the game fairer or less complicated. That's definitely true where vehicles and close combat are concerned too...

What makes you think one shot in the game rules equates to the game simulating only one shot being fired?

NerdExtrodinare wrote:
I don't know, I don't have any of that in my armies.

I simply don't like the logic of "I have this technology, or shield or whatever that makes it harder for you to hit... Also it some how makes your guns explode more often."

Exactly. Why would plasma guns blow up twice as often when they were shooting Alaitoc Eldar rather than Ulthwe? Or Raven Guard over Salamanders? It's a function of the gun, not what it is shooting at. At least from a logic standpoint. And the logic of rolling a 2, minus 1 for a penalty is still rolling a 2, but a 1 to hit. It's a fine line I'll grant you, but the other interpretation is just silly if it makes the guns firing not only less likely to hit, but more likely to catastrophically fail.

EDIT TO ADD: Also, if the interpretation that the roll is whatever the dice show after any modifiers are applied, then if you have -1 to hit, roll a 1 on the dice, you have now "rolled" a zero. Plasma guns do not fail on a zero, but on a 1. So it wouldn't explode.

Logic also dictates I should be able to re-roll that 3 I know is going to miss. The games rules are the way they are, no amount of appeals to "logic" will change that.

You understand that this game, and most games break, if you try and apply 'real world logic' to it...right?
Don't try and make the rules make sense in fluffy world.
For example.

Being Charged:
Soldier 1 "Man, really sucks the guys running at us at just outside of range of our guns."
Soldier 2: "Why don't we just wait 1 second and they will be in range? Like...they are coming to us."
Soldier 1: "Cause the rules say..."

Fight Phase:
Your Soldier: "HEY GUYS WE CHARGED, WE ARE GOING FIRST!"
Enemy Soldier: "OH OKAY! BUT WE ARE GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU OVER HERE WHEN YOU ARE DONE!"
Your Soldier : "SEEMS FAIR!"

Lightning Reflexes Invul Save:
Genestealer gets shot in the head. Shot Hits, goes into the Brain, but dodges after the fact and is perfectly fine.

Removing Casualties from the back:
Soldier 1: "Damnit I was shot!"
Soldier 29: "BLARGH! I died."
Soldier 1: "Curses! Another headshot!"
Soldier 28: *head explodes*

These are just a few examples.
So, again...applying real world logic to these game rules doesn't REALLY make sense, or cause anything short of frustration.
Just a game folks.

Gwarok wrote:
EDIT TO ADD: Also, if the interpretation that the roll is whatever the dice show after any modifiers are applied, then if you have -1 to hit, roll a 1 on the dice, you have now "rolled" a zero. Plasma guns do not fail on a zero, but on a 1. So it wouldn't explode.

This is incorrect. The faq says that any roll that would result in a number less than one counts as a one.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Gwarok wrote:
EDIT TO ADD: Also, if the interpretation that the roll is whatever the dice show after any modifiers are applied, then if you have -1 to hit, roll a 1 on the dice, you have now "rolled" a zero. Plasma guns do not fail on a zero, but on a 1. So it wouldn't explode.

This is incorrect. The faq says that any roll that would result in a number less than one counts as a one.

From the Designers Commentary: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?
A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.

For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers, the final result is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as explained above), then the supercharged plasma weapon injures or kills the firer.

Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

Then dont overcharge it when moving and shooting at a flyer.

Especially an Alaitoc one.

Stux wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the rule? I'm aware I'm probably going to look stupid for not knowing. But I just don't recall the rule of overwatch imposing a -5 to hit. Only that it is a shooting attack that requires a 6 to hit.