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For a game of Space Marines vs Death Guard, we need:

- Core Rules
- Core Rules FAQ
- Designers Commentary
- Stepping into a New Edition FAQ

- Chapter Approved
- Chapter Approved FAQ

- Big FAQ

- Codex: Space Marines
- Codex: Space Marines FAQ

- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Death Guard FAQ

Anyone else feel like 8th has been one big beta test that we've had to pay for? And even after all that they still haven't fixed several fundamental flaws.

If I were just starting out, I'd simply not bother trying to get into 40k.

8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

I play Tyranids, Necrons and various non-Astartes Imperial stuff, why do I need the Space Marine and Death Guard stuff?

I don't need CA or The Big FAQ because I've used my clearly monumental intellect to memorise the 3 changes they made that are relevant. Same goes for most of the other documents.

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

I'd rather not pay full price for unfinished rules.

It's like if you came home from GW with a box of space marines and you opened it up to find the heads were missing because GW hasn't decided on what style they want yet. Then you have to wait 6 months for these new heads and buy them only to fine out 90% of the style is just ripped from 7th and previous editions. XD

Are they still updating the ebooks?

 lolman1c wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

I'd rather not pay full price for unfinished rules.

So you'll never pay for any games rules ever?

Or one could play "open play" and then you need 3 sources. 6 with FAQs which is no more than you ever needed before.

GW just cannot win unless things are perfect out of the gate, if anything needs changing or clarification, boom extra sources.

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

Well until 9th comes out anyway in a year or two.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

I'd rather not pay full price for unfinished rules.

So you'll never pay for any games rules ever?

I was more talking about CA. You buy a game and accept the patches but you don't buy it and then have to pay for every patch...

I might be persuaded or even fooled if it was an expansion pack but it wasn't even that... Most of it was a copy and past form last editions.

The conprehensive magic the gathering rules are some 270 or 300 pages long. All written in dry paragrafs.

Thrn magic have the tournament rules and the infraction guideline penalty.

I quite like that magic can awnser anything. This does not take into account the 19 000 different cards, many with erqtas to them.

Yet I play mtg just fine no problem.

11 pdf documents are not so much.

Nah... I'm playing a game next tuesday. I'll bring my Astartes codex, rulebook and datacards.

If me and my friend disagree on something, we will hash it out and continue to roll dice.

This is probably what happens in 80% of the games in 40k.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Are they still updating the ebooks?

I don't know, but it would help a lot if this were the case. I too, find keeping up with all the various changes printed in multiple locations hard at times. Having the E-Book Codexs updated when changes occur, then freely re-downloadable to anyone who bought them would be great.

While they're at it, ship the physical rule books with a free digital copy too for easy access to the same updates.

At this point the codexes are glorified Lore books, since 90% of the rules contained within are invalidated by errata. Might as well just make the codexes actual lore books with pretty pictures and give us the rules as e-books only.

While I'm okay with Erratas and FAQs and think they are a good thing, 8th has been patched to death imo. We need a 8. Editon revised to cut away some of these documents.

More documents, more unintended interactions, more fuel for YMDC threads!

 Hanskrampf wrote:
While I'm okay with Erratas and FAQs and think they are a good thing, 8th has been patched to death imo. We need a 8. Editon revised to cut away some of these documents.

They just need to consolidate everything into a single document, even if it ends up 20 pages long.

I honestly would prefer to have had one big FAQ so it's not split across multiple factions

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone else feel like 8th has been one big beta test that we've had to pay for? And even after all that they still haven't fixed several fundamental flaws

It's a pain.

But the alternative was that we remain with the trainwreck that was 7th edition for however many years, followed by the old 'here is your codex for the next two editions, good luck'

Think there’s an element here of wilful determination to find fault, no matter what. It’s perfectly possible to play a game without any of the FAQs, errata etc; there’s nothing fundamentally unplayable about the ruleset as originally published. GW are in a lose/lose situation with some people though – don’t update things and the game’s “broken” and they’re “not engaging with the community; try and address issues as they become apparent, “waaah I have to refer to more than one document”. Don’t like either of these options? Stop playing the game and stop buying GW stuff, and find something to do with your spare time that doesn’t leave you in a perma-sulk.

Or one document called your mighty brain.

 Nazrak wrote:
Think there’s an element here of wilful determination to find fault

If you look at BaconCatBug's posting history you'll notice that your instincts are quite sharp.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
For a game of Space Marines vs Death Guard, we need:

- Core Rules
- Core Rules FAQ
- Designers Commentary
- Stepping into a New Edition FAQ

- Chapter Approved
- Chapter Approved FAQ

- Big FAQ

- Codex: Space Marines
- Codex: Space Marines FAQ

- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Death Guard FAQ

Anyone else feel like 8th has been one big beta test that we've had to pay for? And even after all that they still haven't fixed several fundamental flaws.

If I were just starting out, I'd simply not bother trying to get into 40k.

And ta-da...this is what CA will be for in the future - coalescing the rules from the previous months.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
For a game of Space Marines vs Death Guard, we need:

- Core Rules
- Core Rules FAQ
- Designers Commentary
- Stepping into a New Edition FAQ

- Chapter Approved
- Chapter Approved FAQ

- Big FAQ

- Codex: Space Marines
- Codex: Space Marines FAQ

- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Death Guard FAQ

Anyone else feel like 8th has been one big beta test that we've had to pay for? And even after all that they still haven't fixed several fundamental flaws.

If I were just starting out, I'd simply not bother trying to get into 40k.

And ta-da...this is what CA will be for in the future - coalescing the rules from the previous months.

*Should be for. It should be for that.

I do find it very funny though that the edtion that was meant to stream line it requiers me to have the brb the codex, like 3 FAQs and a post from facebook printed out.

Or is it? We don't have more than 1. For all we know they are additional CA's you'll be carrying with just new point cost changes etc which you use in addition to CA2017.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
At this point the codexes are glorified Lore books, since 90% of the rules contained within are invalidated by errata. Might as well just make the codexes actual lore books with pretty pictures and give us the rules as e-books only.

My codex Errata changed three things, all of them things players had assumed were the case, but just needed confirmation on. That's consistent with most of the codices. Big different between 90% and like 5%.

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

If they really wanted a living rules set, though, they'd have gone the route of Infinity; build their own list builder, which is always kept up to date, and post the "rules" documents online for free, so they can be downloaded whenever there's a change, but keep the core lore books something that you purchase if you want that.

You can't do this sort of constant FAQ and "beta testing" when you're talking about paper documents.

 lolman1c wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
8th will literally never be done, welcome to a living rules set. It has its flaws, but at least nothing stays totally overwhelming for very long.

I'd rather not pay full price for unfinished rules.

It's like if you came home from GW with a box of space marines and you opened it up to find the heads were missing because GW hasn't decided on what style they want yet. Then you have to wait 6 months for these new heads and buy them only to fine out 90% of the style is just ripped from 7th and previous editions. XD

Would you? Do you really want to relive the days of no answers? The majority of the FAQ is QUESTIONS. The point changes are optional, but there is this new fangled thing called battlescribe that exists, crazy I know. I play other game systems that don't have answers, it's annoying. (Looking at you Dropfleet.....)

I hardly ever have a book out when I play, it's there in case I forget something or need to check on a rules conundrum.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Think there’s an element here of wilful determination to find fault

If you look at BaconCatBug's posting history you'll notice that your instincts are quite sharp.

Oh yeah that much is for certain.

In general, with those that hate GW they will do what they can to find fault no matter what.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Think there’s an element here of wilful determination to find fault

If you look at BaconCatBug's posting history you'll notice that your instincts are quite sharp.

Oh yeah that much is for certain.

In general, with those that hate GW they will do what they can to find fault no matter what.

Up to and including: still buying their product. Does it become masochism at that point?

As long as most of the documents required are free PDFs, I'm ok with it. It's when you need 4+ $50 books like in 7th that it becomes a problem.

For my Eldar, for example, I only need to buy the Codex and the Main Rules. I've printed out all the relevant FAQs and Erratas and placed them inside those 2 books.
I also have all the Autarch pages from the Index cut out a placed in the Codex as well, because I like all the options he has from the Index.

But I still only have to tote around 2 books and I'm ok with that.
I do hate that I will never be able to have all the rules for 40K (just way, way too many factions and source material), but at least for the army I have, it isn't so bad.

On a side note, having to keep up with so many FAQs and Erratas and faction releases coming like rapid-fire, is a major reason I have been against a "living" ruleset from the beginning. It certainly has its benefits (like certain OP combos dying quick deaths), but it makes it difficult to keep up with the "meta".
As I have kids now, this sort of game has effectively blocked me for even being a competitive player again. But at least I also enjoy being a casual player on the very, very few times I get to go to the LGS and have a game.

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