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First, I would like to say that I like the Beta restriction a lot more that I don't like it.
Whole armies dropping half their units out of nowhere that can immediately be in position to shoot at max efficiency and potentially assault with no "real" counter for the opponent was just toxic.
It doesn't matter how well it shut down gunlines (which also are not fun for the game) it shut down any army and that isn't good for the health of the game.
GW clearly never intended for armies to use Turn 1 arrival in this manner. It seems GW has too much faith in the players not to break the game (which is their mistake)

However, not being able to arrive outside your DZ on turn 1 just makes Turn 1 arrival pointless. While some units are kept in reserve to protect themselves, others are slow and need the movement boost AND to be on the board turn 1 to contribute some shooting and a potential threat..
While having to wait until Turn 2 is still better than prior editions (because you had to roll to see if they even came in and they could potentially scatter) having the ability to have your whole army on the board can mitigate gunlines as you can put some more damage into them and they have more targets instead of just killing the half of your army that deployed n the table.

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So here is my proposed change:
"Units that choose to arrive from Tactical Reserves on Turn 1 may do so, but cannot arrive within 12" of an enemy unit regardless of the distance listed on their ability to arrive on their datasheet"

This change should do 2 things.
1) Prevent rapid-fire plasma and Melta from evaporating units with no ability to counter
2) Prevent units from assaulting from arrival on Turn 1, however, it allows units to at least drop into decent positions and contribute some shooting and a threat that needs to be dealt with.

It still makes Turn 1 arrival much less effective than waiting until Turn 2, but at least it isn't as worthless as being restricted to your DZ (may as well just deploy as nromal at that rate)

Thoughts?

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I think the game is going to need more than 1 rule to fulfill the aim of this rule.

I like it. I think it is a straight upgrade from the current one as written. I think it could be better.

I still think a pair of rules along these lines would be better:
1. All shooting on the top of turn 1 halves all ranges and takes a -1 to hit penalty
2. Units cannot charge into units wholly within the opposing Deployment Zone on the top of turn 1.

Solid suggestion. I like it.

Any 25"+ rapid fire weapons to abuse with it?

Not that I agree with this, but shouldn’t you make it 13”? Models have a 1” reach, if I remember correctly.

 Stormonu wrote:
Not that I agree with this, but shouldn’t you make it 13”? Models have a 1” reach, if I remember correctly.

While it's true that you only need to be able to end your charge move within 1" of an enemy model for it to be successful, the rules say you can't declare a charge against a unit more than 12" away (or rather, a unit is inelligible to be chosen to declare a charge if there are no enemy units within 12").
So this change would stop T1 charges.

 Stormonu wrote:
Not that I agree with this, but shouldn’t you make it 13”? Models have a 1” reach, if I remember correctly.

That's actually a good point. And some armies get +1" or reroll charges to help.
But I actually think leaving it "possible" to assault is ok, because you aren't going to change the meta when you need to roll a 12.

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Would you consider pairing it with a ruling that you can't succeed without Boxcars? It might get too wordy that way, but might be more effective.

You're still looking at things like Banshees being capable, but unlikely, to make it into (they still need a 9" charge).

I like it being possible, just not feasible to charge on turn 1 after arrival. It keeps the option there without making it possible for all units dropping in to pull it off on Turn 1.

Getting 1 unit in melee on turn 1 isn't a big problem, it's when you can reliably get 3+ into melee that it hurts that health of the game.

Needing box cars to make it into melee is a big enough risk that players won't try it with half their army and if they do, they can get punished severely.

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 Galef wrote:
I like it being possible, just not feasible to charge on turn 1 after arrival. It keeps the option there without making it possible for all units dropping in to pull it off on Turn 1.

Getting 1 unit in melee on turn 1 isn't a big problem, it's when you can reliably get 3+ into melee that it hurts that health of the game.

Needing box cars to make it into melee is a big enough risk that players won't try it with half their army and if they do, they can get punished severely.

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I approve of possible, but incredibly risky.

Just how risky are we talking about? Boxcars? Unmodified 9+?

Bharring wrote:
Just how risky are we talking about? Boxcars? Unmodified 9+?

If you have to arrive OUTSIDE 12" of any enemy, than it is impossible for the average unit to getting within 1" even if they roll double 6s. They literally needs a special ability that gives them extra distance.

Hold the phone! I just remembered that units can only declare charges normally if an enemy is within 12". If you have to arrive outside 12, you cannot even declare the charge in the first place.
Nevermind. No assault with this change (except with Banshees apparently)

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My main problem with this is is still disproportionately affects CC units. If you have to be 12" away, CC units still cannot charge, and a lot of them are armed with 12" pistols and probably can't shoot, either. Shooting units, however, may not be able to shoot some of their best weapons, but they can still do something

How about just no deep striking w/in 9" of enemies deployment zone the whole game?

Think of it as automatic free bubble wrap. You want to move to the center of the board, good luck.

I really don't like the 50% PL/points but it makes sense. It's just that the only way to keep a lot of my army alive without expensive transports was to deep strike them and now that option is pretty much gone (was planning a DA/BA army which is dead by these rules) so the recent salt of that lost time/effort is still fresh.

Galef,
I asked that question to set up our goal.

I don't see why Banshees should be allowed to assault out of DS if certain others cant (like Scorpions), and don't really care if the rule prevents Banshees (and similar) from charging as well.

I find it odd that Banshees could, and wanted to call that out, so if someone did think that was a problem, they could update the rule to adjust for it.

I, too, had forgotten you can't declare charges vs units > 12" away - which is odd, because you could theoretically roll boxcars to make charges for units >12" but <13".

bananathug wrote:
How about just no deep striking w/in 9" of enemies deployment zone the whole game?

Think of it as automatic free bubble wrap. You want to move to the center of the board, good luck.

I really don't like the 50% PL/points but it makes sense. It's just that the only way to keep a lot of my army alive without expensive transports was to deep strike them and now that option is pretty much gone (was planning a DA/BA army which is dead by these rules) so the recent salt of that lost time/effort is still fresh.

Still favors gunline turtling.

The 9" of enemies deployment zone rule woudl be odd for forces coming in behind an advancing foe.

Consider combined armed Marines vs combined arms CWE (my two armies.) As the Tacs (or Guardians/DAs) move forward, Scorpions (/ASM) deepstriking near Devs (/Reapers) with the intent of surviving a round and charging the next turn really makes sense.

It'd be annoying to lose that, but I could live.

I would rather the deep strike be limited to your table half on turn 1 (or 12" outside the opponent's deployment zone). That makes aggressive armies like Dark Eldar Reaver jetbikes still targetable by rapid fire, and potentially assault. If my opponent decides to double move Shining spears into my backfield to charge my artillery, I'd like to be able to deep strike in immediate support rather than wait for the next turn.

Also, I think certain units should be excluded.
1) Mawloc's. They do 1 thing well, and that thing can't happen if they aren't allowed to deep strike within 2" of enemy units. Their special rule probably would override this rule anyways, so they might not need a call-out exclusion.
2) Drop Pods. They Suck. They don't have a real role in 8th ed. If they could ignore these sort of restrictions, they would have a role in army lists again. Basically any nerf to deep strike takes this sub-par unit and turns it into stinky garbage.
3) Terminators. They Suck. They are too slow to be effective in the game. Anything that we can do to speed them up, and give them a purpose is good. Turn 1 Deep strike is definitely a good way to go.
4) Tyrannocytes. They have a purpose. Delivering Tyranid Monsters to your enemy on turn 1. If you take away this purpose you won't see them on the table. That isn't a huge problem, because the models are ugly, and a giant pain to transport, but diversity is good.
5) Primaris Rievers. Their fluff makes them more special than their rules do. They are pricey and subpar in most situations. Giving them an exemption to this restriction would make them more likely to fill a role in army lists.

Possibly a few other units that currently lack a role because of the proliferation and standardization of Deep Strike, and the massive movement speed increases of 8th.


Also, we still have the central problem of 8th edition. Crappy terrain rules that promote alpha strikes, long ranged shooting, and going 1st. We either have to fix the terrain rules, or add a strategem or something to address shooty alpha strikes.

Bharring wrote:
I think the game is going to need more than 1 rule to fulfill the aim of this rule.

I like it. I think it is a straight upgrade from the current one as written. I think it could be better.

I still think a pair of rules along these lines would be better:
1. All shooting on the top of turn 1 halves all ranges and takes a -1 to hit penalty
2. Units cannot charge into units wholly within the opposing Deployment Zone on the top of turn 1.

+1 to this, a nerf to DS without a nerf to turn 1 shooting is completely crazy, it makes shooty factions completely overpowered.
Altho i think - with the DS nerf taken into consideration - shooting distance for all weapons should also be capped at 36", so that shooty units MUST take a risk to shoot, and not be quietly hidden for most of the game.

But then the Railhead and Prism need rebalancing, because they "pay" for the range (although the Railhead isn't so great right now anyways).

And LasCannon Tac squads just dropped in usefulness, as they can't sit back and shoot - which they pay for with lack of firepower.

And IoM ML and AML both go from bad to worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(based on the cap-ranges-at-36 globally)

An easy fix to nerf turn 1 shooting is to make a -1 to hit penalty for all weapons that target a unit outside half the weapons range.
But that is a proposal for another thread.

I am still holding that the Beta restriction on Turn 1 arrival be made to outside 12" of enemy units rather than within you deployment zone.
It outright stop turn 1 charges from arrival and prevents most Rapid-fire weapons being at peak efficiency.

Turn 1 assaults are still possible by other means and this is a clear improvement from prior editions.

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The other benefit is that this rule makes the 'deployment zone' mean something after the game has started. There are a few times that this happens, but it usually doesn't. Your suggestion removes that, which declutters the rules a bit.

Bharring wrote:
.... which declutters the rules a bit.

Thanx. I always take the viewpoint that a simple uncluttered rule is always better than a convoluted one, even if it doesn't always make sense in all situations.

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 Galef wrote:
However, not being able to arrive outside your DZ on turn 1 just makes Turn 1 arrival pointless.

Yes, and that's the point! Turn 1 reserves never should have been an option, and now they've been nerfed a bit. You still get to react to your opponent's deployment and keep that unit off the table against turn-1 alpha strikes but full deep strike is back to turns 2+ like it should have been.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Turn 1 assaults are still possible by other means and this is a clear improvement from prior editions.

You mean a clear setback from previous editions. Turn 1 assaults should be virtually nonexistent, if they're possible at all. Range and positioning are supposed to matter, you shouldn't be able to deploy straight into melee and bypass the entire range mechanic.

I wouldn't have a problem if Scourge or maybe Razorwings might possibly on boxcars get a turn1 assault.

ASM or Scoprions or Kroot getting a turn 1 assult feels wrong.

Berzerkers or Dreads getting into CC on turn 1 is crazy.

So as with GW's version you kill T1 assault DS(which weren't real issue anyway apart from few units) and less so gunline versions.

So basically same mistake GW did...

Howabout radical concept. Fix problematic units? Flamer/melta deep strike wasn't problem. Nor was most of assault ones. With 2d6" even 9" was something you could not rely on. Fix the problematic units rather than add blanket restrictions which never have worked really well.

Obliterators and Destroyers laugh at this as you do nothing to restrict them. Bad change.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Obliterators and Destroyers laugh at this as you do nothing to restrict them. Bad change.

Those are also very expensive models that are that hard to kill.
Destroyers may be fast enough to just deploy Turn 1 as normal, but Oblits having to skip an entire turn of shooting makes them much less viable overall.

I am ok with letting Oblits and Destroyers still be effective.
Also keep in mind that with my proposed change, it is still possible to protect against turn 1 drops for theses units. Simply deploy your important stuff at your board edge and place a screen at your deployment line.
As the Destroyers and Oblits cannot get any closer than 12" of your screen, your more important units will be outside of their weapon range. It might be hard to pull off, but it is possible, especially if you have some LoS blocking terrain to help.

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 Peregrine wrote:

 Galef wrote:
However, not being able to arrive outside your DZ on turn 1 just makes Turn 1 arrival pointless.

Yes, and that's the point! Turn 1 reserves never should have been an option, ...
.

yes, and infinite ranged, out of LoS shooting should also never be an option. Guess which one is still in the game?

Bharring wrote:
I wouldn't have a problem if Scourge or maybe Razorwings might possibly on boxcars get a turn1 assault.

ASM or Scoprions or Kroot getting a turn 1 assult feels wrong.

Berzerkers or Dreads getting into CC on turn 1 is crazy.

Please do not Deep Strike assault your Scourges.

That would just be such a bad idea. I ain't even need a rule to make me deep strike Scourges in my own deployment zone.

 Galef wrote:
First, I would like to say that I like the Beta restriction a lot more that I don't like it.
Whole armies dropping half their units out of nowhere that can immediately be in position to shoot at max efficiency and potentially assault with no "real" counter for the opponent was just toxic.
It doesn't matter how well it shut down gunlines (which also are not fun for the game) it shut down any army and that isn't good for the health of the game.
GW clearly never intended for armies to use Turn 1 arrival in this manner. It seems GW has too much faith in the players not to break the game (which is their mistake)

However, not being able to arrive outside your DZ on turn 1 just makes Turn 1 arrival pointless. While some units are kept in reserve to protect themselves, others are slow and need the movement boost AND to be on the board turn 1 to contribute some shooting and a potential threat..
While having to wait until Turn 2 is still better than prior editions (because you had to roll to see if they even came in and they could potentially scatter) having the ability to have your whole army on the board can mitigate gunlines as you can put some more damage into them and they have more targets instead of just killing the half of your army that deployed n the table.

---------------------------------------------------------------
So here is my proposed change:
"Units that choose to arrive from Tactical Reserves on Turn 1 may do so, but cannot arrive within 12" of an enemy unit regardless of the distance listed on their ability to arrive on their datasheet"

This change should do 2 things.
1) Prevent rapid-fire plasma and Melta from evaporating units with no ability to counter
2) Prevent units from assaulting from arrival on Turn 1, however, it allows units to at least drop into decent positions and contribute some shooting and a threat that needs to be dealt with.

It still makes Turn 1 arrival much less effective than waiting until Turn 2, but at least it isn't as worthless as being restricted to your DZ (may as well just deploy as nromal at that rate)

Thoughts?

-

Neat idea, but I'm afraid I'm not a fan. Outside of very specific options (blood letter bombs and maybe some BA options), turn 1 charges actually haven't been all that impressive this edition. Needing a 9" charge means that you'll fail that charge more often than not and thus have you whole army standing in front of the enemy's guns. And if you did manage to get a big, expensive unit fueled by command points into melee on turn 1, well, go ahead and enjoy killing some screen units before they fall back and then have their pals light you up. It's probably not a game breaker.

Basically, I'm not convinced that first turn charges were that big of a problem. First turn gunline alpha strikes, however, have been a pretty big deal and will absolutely love this proposed change. As an eldar player, this also wrecks the gimmicks of a bunch of my units. Specifically...
* Scorpions now have to sit around and twiddle their thumbs rather than striking from the shadows.
* Guardians, warp spiders, wraith guard, and fire dragons are unable to ambush the enemy and instead have to hope they don't get blasted or counter charged before they're allowed to do anything.
*Hawks are now unable to use their grenade packs out of deepstrike.

This has the same issues as the GW rules; it actually makes me want to field more dark reapers than I am now because they'll get an extra turn of shooting and because the alternatives I usually try to field for the sake of variety (like dragons or wraith guard coming out of a portal) become so much less useful. If my scorpions can't charge and might dragons can't shoot, I may as well just try to blast you from across the table with my own gunline.