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I've got a game coming up on Friday this week. This will be my second real game. My first game I got destroyed by a guard army. I wasn't able to kill their tanks or effectively deal with their horde of infantry. I don't know what army I'll be playing against so I'm building this to take all comers, but I'm indexing heavily on my experience in the first game (need more anti tank and horde control). The idea here is simple: Dreadnoughts and Lieutenant hang back and try to kill heavies. Techmarine tries to keep my dreadnoughts alive longer than their big guns. Aggressors will use SFtS. If I get first turn I'll try to wipe out a key infantry unit, otherwise I'll pick a good spot with cover and try to camp a little bit. Scouts do what scouts do, and the Inceptors drop down to grab objectives or shoot into the back line if able.

I'm not super happy with scouts at this point level. They don't do much and I don't need a ton of bubble wrap. Last game I had 1 dreadnought, captain, lieutenant, 3 aggressors, 3 inceptors, 5 hellblasters, 5 intercessors, 10 scouts. The Intercessors were actually the star of the game for me. They were able to get some kills and they hung around to the bitter end. My scouts were pretty worthless. I understand the value of scouts in bigger point games, but I'm wondering if they are necessary at this level? I would love some feedback on this list and any ideas on how to make it better. I've got Intercessors, Inceptors, Hellblasters, Captains, Ancient (essentially the Dark Imperium set) available to swap out.


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP [+5CP for FAQ ] (Imperium - Space Marines) [65 PL, 999pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 131pts] +

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle [4pts], The Armour Indomitus

Techmarine [4 PL, 57pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm [12pts]

+ Fast Attack [10 PL, 135pts] +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: Assault bolter [60pts], 2x Inceptor [50pts], Inceptor Sergeant [25pts]

+ Troops [18 PL, 165pts] +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites [28 PL, 568pts] +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor [42pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [48pts]

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor [42pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [48pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Total: [65 PL, 999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

That looks like a pretty badass list for 1000pts. If you post a batrep using it please link it here too, I'd like to see how it does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might spend a command point and get Primarch's Wrath for the Tech Marine, with a 2+ BS I find that artifact to be surprisingly effective in some situations, especially on a jump pack unit like an Lt, but a Tech Marine would do well with it too I imagine.

I'd consider swapping the Inceptors. They can't deepstrike on turn 1 any more and the bolter ones are going to have trouble prying out key models that they can harm. I'd consider swapping them for some Intercessors or a Predator.

You should put the two squads of aggressors together for a strong 6 man unit. Saves you a deployment and only one CP to put them in sfts. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback. I will put together a battle report after the game and link it to this post. I'm still trying to nail down the final list. I've incorporated some feedback into the original list and generated an alternative. In List A I've added the Primarch's Wrath to my Techmarine. I will Sfts (1CP) with the Aggressors and potentially the Lieutenant. In List B, I've removed the 1 Inceptor unit and 2 units of Scouts and replaced them with 2 units of Intercessors and 1 Ancient. In this list I would Sfts (1CP) with the Aggressors and Ancient, and maybe the Lieutenant. In List B, I would also pay 1 CP for the second Relic (Standard of the Emperor Ascendant). With the increase in command points I will certainly use Honor the Chapter (3CP) on the Aggressors the first chance I get or Auspex Scan (2CP) if my opponents drops anything in their range. I've got 4 questions for the group:

1. Which list is better? I'm leaning to List B. I really like the Inceptors, but I think I need all my guys on the board early to try and eliminate some of the opponents key units.
2. Should the Lieutenant go with the Aggressors or stay with the Dreadnoughts? I'm leaning to go with the Aggressors as the volume of fire will benefit more from the re-rolls to wound and the Relic (Storm of Fire) which increases their AP from 0 to -1.
3. Is it better to have the Ancient or convert that and the last scouts into another unit of Intercessors or add a unit of Scouts? I'm thinking that the Ancient may be incredibly valuable in this list, so I'm leaning toward keeping the Ancient and Scouts. I'll have to check with my opponent if he is okay with my roster being over by 5 points. Or I could proxy a non-Primaris Ancient, so it shouldn't be a big deal.
4. In both lists I will have 8CPs to start. In List B, I will use 1 for a second relic, 2-3 for Sfts, and probably 3 for Honor the Chapter. That leaves me with 1-2 CPs. Are there any other Stratagems that I should have at my fingertips beyond the ones mentioned above and the standard Re-roll?

Thanks for all the help guys, this forum is hugely valuable for a new player to get up to speed on a rather complicated game.

List A - Original Army w/Slight Modifications

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (+5CP with FAQ) (Imperium - Space Marines) [65 PL, 999pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 131pts] +

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle [4pts] . Warlord: Storm of Fire

Techmarine [4 PL, 57pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm [12pts], The Primarch's Wrath

+ Fast Attack [10 PL, 135pts] +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: Assault bolter [60pts], 2x Inceptor [50pts], Inceptor Sergeant [25pts]

+ Troops [18 PL, 165pts] +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites [28 PL, 568pts] +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor [105pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [96pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Total: [65 PL, 999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


List B - Modified Army List

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (+5CP with FAQ) (Imperium - Space Marines) [58 PL, 1005pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 131pts] +

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle [4pts] . Warlord: Storm of Fire

Techmarine [4 PL, 57pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm [12pts], The Primarch's Wrath

+ Troops [16 PL, 237pts] +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites [33 PL, 637pts] +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor [105pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [96pts]

Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 69pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Total: [58 PL, 1005pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

So below is the list that I went with and my opponent's list (wargear may not be exact). I won this game pretty easily. We were playing 'The Relic', so there was some concern that his last guy could end up holding the relic as time expired, but I ended up killing his last model in turn 5. Essentially, I castled up with everything except my Aggressors (SFtS), Ancient (SFtS), and Scouts. My opponent spread out his army with the intention of rushing forward. He had very few guns, and nothing that had range more the 24". I dropped my Scouts on the 'Relic' with the intentions of grabbing it and retreating back to my line. I got first turn and retreated with the scouts. In hindsight, I should have advanced backwards, because I was still in range of smite and a few guns. My Aggressors and Ancient popped up near the Bloat-Drone and Demon Prince. They put all their shots into the Blight drone doing some decent damage. The Dreadnoughts shot at the Hellbrute also doing some decent damage. On my opponents 1st turn he advanced up the field with his hellbrute, smite, and marines shooting at the scouts and killing them all. The Bloat Drone and Demon moved up to attack the Aggressors. My 6 Aggressors were able to put some wounds on the Bloat-Drone on the charge, then whether the storm of attacks from the Drone and Demon. When I hit back, they killed the Drone.

My Aggressors eventually killed the Drone and the Demon, largely in CC. There was 1 Aggressor left and he died to smite. The ancient then moved over to the castle to support. On my second turn I killed the Hellbrute. By the 3rd turn I was just mowing down Poxwalkers so I could get to his characters. The game was pretty much over by the end of the 3rd turn. My Dreadnoughts and Characters never took a wound. I was a little disappointed that I didn't get to use my brand new Techmarine. I have a few take aways from the game:
1. Aggressors did good work and are pretty dangerous to monsters if they get to hit back. I actually got the shooting twice rules for Aggressors wrong and was rolling a few too many dice. I don't think it made enough of a difference to swing the game, but I will need to be more aware in the future.
2. Speaking of mistakes, I also messed up on the Warlord Trait (storm of fire) and was giving -1 AP to all wounds instead of just those with a 6. Again it probably didn't swing the game, but I feel pretty sheepish about these mistakes.
3. The scouts kind of sucked. I know their job is to die, but they are like wet paper. I had the same experience in my 1st game, where they were completely off the board by the end of the first turn. And it wasn't like they were eating shots that would have gone to other targets. Because they are scouts you're encouraged to deploy them forward and often they are the only target in range.
3. Intercessors were strong. They kind of serve the same function as scouts. They aren't able to really kill anything, but they hold up so much better.
4. The Ancient is pretty much mandatory with the Aggressors. He turn them from a pretty average unit into a pretty efficient unit.
5. Deathguard actually seem like a pretty fun army to play. However, they have so many abilities that have to work in unison to make them competitive because they are just so slow with minimal range. My opponent was asking me after the game what he should do to take the army to the next point level. I suggested get some deep strike or a lot more speed. I think Deathguard should try to be a Deep Strike army and hide all the initial drop units on the 1st turn (except maybe poxwalkers).

We are planning on playing another game at 1,500 points in two weeks. I've posted my proposed list below. It is pretty much based on what I have. I would appreciate some feedback on the new list as we lead up to our rematch.



Raven Guard
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [57 PL, 999pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 131pts] +

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle [4pts] . Warlord: Storm of Fire

Techmarine [4 PL, 57pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm [12pts], The Primarch's Wrath

+ Troops [16 PL, 237pts] +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites [32 PL, 631pts] +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor [105pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [96pts]

Company Ancient [4 PL, 63pts]: Boltgun, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Total: [57 PL, 999pts] ++



Deathguard
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [53 PL, 976pts] ++

+ HQ [21 PL, 383pts] +

Daemon Prince of Nurgle [8 PL, 156pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, Malefic talon [10pts]

Lord of Contagion [7 PL, 117pts]: Manreaper [17pts], Warlord

Malignant Plaguecaster [6 PL, 110pts]

+ Troops [13 PL, 231pts] +

Plague Marines [7 PL, 111pts]
. Plague Champion [30pts]: Plague knife, Plasma gun [13pts]
. 3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun [51pts]
. Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon [30pts]: Plasma gun [13pts]

Poxwalkers [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Poxwalker [60pts]

Poxwalkers [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Poxwalker [60pts]

+ Elites [11 PL, 204pts] +

Helbrute [7 PL, 139pts]: Helbrute fist [40pts], Multi-melta [27pts]

Noxious Blightbringer [4 PL, 65pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts]

+ Fast Attack [8 PL, 158pts] +

Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters [34pts], Plague probe [25pts]

++ Total: [53 PL, 976pts] ++



For our 1,500 pt game I'm pretty much running the models that I have. I have a bunch more scouts and Inceptors, 1 captain, 1 primaris lieutenant, and the 1 primaris captain in gravis armour. I'm open to buying an additional unit if I can identify the right unit to build toward 2,000 pts. I'd really appreciate any feedback on the Relics, Warlord trait and deployment. I'm very tempted to put the Lieutenant with storm of fire or the librarian with storm of fire with the Aggressors to make them a little bit more effective. The problem is that this unit tends to get hung out a little bit and it is a race to get the points back before they are wiped out.

Raven Guard (1,500pts)
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [62 PL, 798pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 136pts] +

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 74pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle [4pts]

Techmarine [4 PL, 62pts]: Boltgun, Power axe [5pts], Servo-arm [12pts], The Primarch's Wrath

+ Fast Attack [20 PL, 180pts] +

Inceptor Squad [20 PL, 180pts]: Assault bolter [80pts], 3x Inceptor [75pts], Inceptor Sergeant [25pts]

+ Troops [20 PL, 248pts] +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Scout Squad [10 PL, 66pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword . 5x Scout w/Boltgun [55pts]

+ Heavy Support [8 PL, 165pts] +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator [75pts] . 4x Hellblaster [72pts] . Hellblaster Sergeant [18pts]: Bolt pistol

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites [5 PL, 69pts] +

Primaris Ancient [5 PL, 69pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [37 PL, 698pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [9 PL, 130pts] +

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 130pts]: 2) Might of Heroes, 6) Null Zone, Force sword [8pts], Storm bolter [2pts]

+ Elites [28 PL, 568pts] +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor [105pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [96pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Total: [99 PL, 1496pts] ++

Sounds like you had a good game.
Scouts do die very easily but their main job is to keep a space for your SFTS models against other armies that can infultrate eg tau and nugling who have the same rules as scouts. They can also contain things with scout moves to their deployment zone.
Once they have done that they are going to die swiftly.

Personally, I would get Shrike and vanguard vets with claws. The raven guard fury assault squad looks the best for this. Very expensive though.

Now back to reality... So Shrike and 2 full squads of vanguard with lightning claws (62 attacks!!!). So you will be rerolling hits and wounds. If you drop the librarian with them and activate nullzone this combo has a lot of potential. Additionaly, if you charge with Shrike first then enemy can not fire overwatch.

This would also act nicely as a counter charge when your aggressors get bogged down.

I do really like the idea of VVs. The games I've played, my opponent has had a decent amount of chaff. I get pretty worried about using these units and them failing to make the charge. In that case they will just get mowed down. I really wish that space marines had at least one decently tanky unit. I really like the idea of trying to ally in some Custodes in a large point game. I'm holding out some hope that we'll get Primaris Terminators that will have 4-5 wounds and 4-5 attacks.

I love VV. They fit the raven guard theme very well.

Have you thought about the 3 shield captain on jeybike combo? The hurricane bolsters make the ok against chaff and they are great in combat.

The other alternative is cataphractii terminators. Better invulnerable save.

Space marines have tank units... Dreadnoughts, and they benefit from chapter tactics. With lucius drop pod they can get right into the action.

Lot of options with 500 points. But that is the problem.