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How's this for a proposed datasheet

Opportunistic Drop Pod:
As per Drop Pod with the following changes:
Unique: 0-1 per Army
1 Power Point, or 25 Points

Otherwise identical to a Drop Pod.


Basically, the first pod is not-quite-free.

...

Why? Just why? This doesn't make much sense at all.

I won't say the Drop Pod is in a good place, but this makes basically no sense.

The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Bharring wrote:
How's this for a proposed datasheet

Opportunistic Drop Pod:
As per Drop Pod with the following changes:
Unique: 0-1 per Army
1 Power Point, or 25 Points

Otherwise identical to a Drop Pod.


Basically, the first pod is not-quite-free.

No. Just no. # you can take MUST NOT be taken into account with point cost. This is what GW screwed up in past often with special characters giving them discount on account on being unique. That's bad game design. Horribly bad. If unit X has abilities Y and costs Z then another unit with same abilities must cost same point cost.

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I might use them at 50 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
I might use them at 50 pts.

With the new Deep Strike rules where your opponent is less punished for bad deployment? I doubt it.

One of the problems in the past is that, if the pod is good enough to be worth using to drop in one Tac squad behind enemy lines, then dropping in 2 Tac squads at double the cost is even better. And 3 is much better. 4 is scary. 5 and why even play out the game?

The nature of it - allowing you to place a unit where you want when-ish you want makes it tactical and interesting if only one or two units can do it, but OP if everything can. So either you point it to balance Iron Rain (full army in Pods), and it never gets used for one or two reinforcements as reactive deployments, or it's pointed such that you can just rain in most of your guys when you want, where you want (with more restrictions now).

I do not believe there is a pricepoint for the droppod where 1 has uses, but 3+ isn't OP.

I'd still use a single Pod if it were cheap enough. Tacs may not be great. But being able to pod in would give them another use.

Have the cost scale upwards with number taken, so 1 is 25pts, the 2nd 50, the third 100, doubling each time. The first few are good value, after that it really starts to cut into your army list for other things.
(Numbers are examples, I don't actually know the current cost of a drop pod).

Bharring wrote:
One of the problems in the past is that, if the pod is good enough to be worth using to drop in one Tac squad behind enemy lines, then dropping in 2 Tac squads at double the cost is even better. And 3 is much better. 4 is scary. 5 and why even play out the game?

The nature of it - allowing you to place a unit where you want when-ish you want makes it tactical and interesting if only one or two units can do it, but OP if everything can. So either you point it to balance Iron Rain (full army in Pods), and it never gets used for one or two reinforcements as reactive deployments, or it's pointed such that you can just rain in most of your guys when you want, where you want (with more restrictions now).

I do not believe there is a pricepoint for the droppod where 1 has uses, but 3+ isn't OP.

I'd still use a single Pod if it were cheap enough. Tacs may not be great. But being able to pod in would give them another use.

Then make them 65-70 points. Simple as that.

The idea of scaling points is the purpose. Not sure how to best do that in the current rules.

I'm certain I don't agree that each addition of a particular model is necessary the same value - and thus necessarily should be the same points - as all the previous ones.

I really doubt a single DropPod is worth even 65 points. I'm not sure what point level it's at. I am certain that the price point a single pod is worthy of would make pod spam OP.

Bharring wrote:
The idea of scaling points is the purpose. Not sure how to best do that in the current rules.

I'm certain I don't agree that each addition of a particular model is necessary the same value - and thus necessarily should be the same points - as all the previous ones.

I really doubt a single DropPod is worth even 65 points. I'm not sure what point level it's at. I am certain that the price point a single pod is worthy of would make pod spam OP.

It would be more worth it if it could transport the things it was able to last edition. I mean let's be honest here: nobody wants to transport Tactical Marines anyway because they're played like Devastators if used at all, and Sternguard need their fixes in addition to being deployed in other means. However, Assault Centurions getting that fix without NEEDING SFtS? Might be neat. Two Sqauds of Sternguard podding together for 65-70? Might be neat.

At minimum it would be worth trying out if you did both those things.

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Why not just make it an unlimited use stratagem like the eldar one for flying units? You play eldar don't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I might use them at 50 pts.

It's worth 1 command point for a single unit or 3 for 2 units or 1-2 based on power level - the game already outlines that in several codexes. It is not worth points at all. It should be a free product of building a balanced list.

What Eldar strat are you talking about? The one that allows deepstriking vehicles? That's limited to 2, and costs 1 CP for 1, 3 CP for 2? And doesn't have a model or weapon (yes, the stormbolter is weak)?

The 'Pod should be at least a little different from WWP.

Drop pods as stratagems is an interesting thought. I imagine people will generally want to continue having a use for their pod models, so just making it a deepstrike stratagem isn't ideal. Perhaps either...

A.) Have people purchase pods with reinforcement points and command points during deployment. This one is iffy mostly because marines don't really have anything else to spend reinforcement points on.

... or....

B.) You buy the pod as usual, but take away the built-in deepstriking ability. Instead, you give them deepstrike using stratagems during deployment. If you don't give them deepstrike, then you essentially just have a chunky objective holder and are clearly defending the recent drop site that your marines are using as a beach head.

Adding a CP element to their cost lets you trim down their points cost dramatically and make them more analogous to other deepstrike stratagems like the various webway stratagems or whatever the daemon one is called.

One of the big issues with drop pods is people feeling they don't pay a fair price for what is essentially the ability to let 10 models deepstrike. So rather than trying to figure out a command point - to -points conversion, you can just make drop pods cheap vehicles that facilitate efficient cloud striking.

Bharring wrote:
The idea of scaling points is the purpose. Not sure how to best do that in the current rules.

I'm certain I don't agree that each addition of a particular model is necessary the same value - and thus necessarily should be the same points - as all the previous ones.

I really doubt a single DropPod is worth even 65 points. I'm not sure what point level it's at. I am certain that the price point a single pod is worthy of would make pod spam OP.

I think that's an insane idea. Terran marines don't increase price in game that could trivially do that. Scaling cost is not a good "solution".

Wyldhunt wrote:
Drop pods as stratagems is an interesting thought. I imagine people will generally want to continue having a use for their pod models, so just making it a deepstrike stratagem isn't ideal. Perhaps either...

A.) Have people purchase pods with reinforcement points and command points during deployment. This one is iffy mostly because marines don't really have anything else to spend reinforcement points on.

... or....

B.) You buy the pod as usual, but take away the built-in deepstriking ability. Instead, you give them deepstrike using stratagems during deployment. If you don't give them deepstrike, then you essentially just have a chunky objective holder and are clearly defending the recent drop site that your marines are using as a beach head.

Adding a CP element to their cost lets you trim down their points cost dramatically and make them more analogous to other deepstrike stratagems like the various webway stratagems or whatever the daemon one is called.

One of the big issues with drop pods is people feeling they don't pay a fair price for what is essentially the ability to let 10 models deepstrike. So rather than trying to figure out a command point - to -points conversion, you can just make drop pods cheap vehicles that facilitate efficient cloud striking.

My idea would be no point cost. It would essentially be a free storm bolter on top of allowing your unit to deep trike. Then - if an enemy unit came within 1" of the drop pod the storm bolter will deactivate and the pod can't cap objectives. You could even write in the stratagem that you must pay points for the storm bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
What Eldar strat are you talking about? The one that allows deepstriking vehicles? That's limited to 2, and costs 1 CP for 1, 3 CP for 2? And doesn't have a model or weapon (yes, the stormbolter is weak)?

The 'Pod should be at least a little different from WWP.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/10/40k-top-5-favorite-eldar-stratagems.html

Cloudstrike is unlimited. WWP is a limit of 2 you are correct on that. Honestly cloudstrike is exactly how I would envision a drop pod assault stratagem. Eldar can do the same thing with save serpants - it can even be argued that a wave serpent protecting the units they come in is an advantage over being forced to deploy (ESP for an assault unit) Since drop pod does NOTHING compared to a wave serpent though - it should be free point wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play Apoc battles sometimes. When Eldar players deep strike 3 scorpions - you auto lose the game.

Bharring wrote:
One of the problems in the past is that, if the pod is good enough to be worth using to drop in one Tac squad behind enemy lines, then dropping in 2 Tac squads at double the cost is even better. And 3 is much better. 4 is scary. 5 and why even play out the game?

The nature of it - allowing you to place a unit where you want when-ish you want makes it tactical and interesting if only one or two units can do it, but OP if everything can. So either you point it to balance Iron Rain (full army in Pods), and it never gets used for one or two reinforcements as reactive deployments, or it's pointed such that you can just rain in most of your guys when you want, where you want (with more restrictions now).

I do not believe there is a pricepoint for the droppod where 1 has uses, but 3+ isn't OP.

I'd still use a single Pod if it were cheap enough. Tacs may not be great. But being able to pod in would give them another use.

I know I'm going to catch flak for it, but just to play devils advocate here. If the Drop Pod went down in price now, then the currently in beta 'Rule of 3' would be a good way to stop the drop pod being spammed, while allowing the individual model to be priced closer to its worth.

Ya know... i had a crazy idea just now

What about instead using drop pods as a way of "summoning"

say a beefy stratagem like for 2-3 you may bring in a unit from your reserve points (but must be of your "chapter")

considering a drop pod is launched from a barge and they would probably have the doods and equipment ready to go. (so in a battle your commander realizes oh crap they have a ton of tanks. so he calls in a drop pod full of melta doods. or storm bolters for large amounts of chaff. or an chaplain for some reason.

a little something different.

trying to word it diffrent

say 2 command points
Drop pod assault.

you may bring in one unit(or up to the transport capacity) in a drop pod that is still in reserves before deploying that drop pod

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

"Terran marines don't increase in cost". Yes they do. Just not in ore.

To be clearer, think about Zerglings. How much does each cost? Not a lot of ore. N cost N*not a lot of ore. But pop cap. Each pair of Zerglings costs me there. I can only have so much pop cap at any given time.

In that way, they do have a scaling cost.

One strategy (although not top-tier) was to spam Dragoons. If you had enough Dragoons on-screen, nothing could close in to take them down. Some things could engage them, but not efficiently. So they spammed dragoons.

Dragoon spam was limited by time - a couple Dragoons was candy to even a poor Zergling rush/swarm. But if you could start the game with 200 pop cap of a certain about of ore/gas? Dragoon swarm would be OP.

StarCraft *did* have a problem with scaling. The 200 pop cap helped. But the incremental build. If 2 dragoons and 4 Zelots was ok, 4 dragoons was bad, but 10 dragoons was good (made up numbers), it's hard to do Dragoon spam, because you need to survive while building the spam.

Pop cap is very different than 40K point values. There is also temporal cost, which 40K utterly lacks.

I don't like scaling cost as a general rule. They can find universal point costs that are close enough, especially with the 0-3 thing in place.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

Only it's not. I can understand SM players' confusion. After all, for many editions SM were the only army able to reliable drop turn 1 Deep Strikers with no scatter and no 3+ roll. but every single other army had to wait their turn 2 and roll their 3+ to even arrive, and then most of them also had to scatter, potentially off the table. So what is hell on earth for SM players now is actually familiar ground for every other faction/army.

Needless to say, I totally hated that fact, even before the skyhammer annihilation force nonsense arrived. I see absolutely no reason why would SM get exempted from a blanket rule that affects core gameplay and subjects every single army to the same restrictions. It's like being Tau and demanding that you get two rounds of shooting per turn because you are supposed to be a shooty army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

As well as cutting the limitation on the range?

50-60 points is the same amount of points to fit a unit with jump packs. sure you lose out on the movement but the units coming in normally wouldnt be able to take them already.

on top of that its a model that stays there.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

Only it's not. I can understand SM players' confusion. After all, for many editions SM were the only army able to reliable drop turn 1 Deep Strikers with no scatter and no 3+ roll. but every single other army had to wait their turn 2 and roll their 3+ to even arrive, and then most of them also had to scatter, potentially off the table. So what is hell on earth for SM players now is actually familiar ground for every other faction/army.

Needless to say, I totally hated that fact, even before the skyhammer annihilation force nonsense arrived. I see absolutely no reason why would SM get exempted from a blanket rule that affects core gameplay and subjects every single army to the same restrictions. It's like being Tau and demanding that you get two rounds of shooting per turn because you are supposed to be a shooty army.

\
Tau basically do get 2 rounds of shooting if you are trying to charge them. You are also not factoring points into the equation. 1 army can deep strike for essentially free but marines have to pay currently 80 points for it. That is truly unfair but paying points to gain an advantage is fair. There's no way I am taking a drop pod for even 50 points if I have to wait until turn 2 to use it. I just wont use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

As well as cutting the limitation on the range?

50-60 points is the same amount of points to fit a unit with jump packs. sure you lose out on the movement but the units coming in normally wouldnt be able to take them already.

on top of that its a model that stays there.

IDK about the range limitation - that might be too much. Marines need something though. They have pretty poor assault units as is.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

Only it's not. I can understand SM players' confusion. After all, for many editions SM were the only army able to reliable drop turn 1 Deep Strikers with no scatter and no 3+ roll. but every single other army had to wait their turn 2 and roll their 3+ to even arrive, and then most of them also had to scatter, potentially off the table. So what is hell on earth for SM players now is actually familiar ground for every other faction/army.

Needless to say, I totally hated that fact, even before the skyhammer annihilation force nonsense arrived. I see absolutely no reason why would SM get exempted from a blanket rule that affects core gameplay and subjects every single army to the same restrictions. It's like being Tau and demanding that you get two rounds of shooting per turn because you are supposed to be a shooty army.

Yeah, imagine Leman Russ tanks or Obliterators shooting twice. That'd be crazy!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The idea is to encourage using a single droppod without making droppod spam notably cheaper.

Perhaps most don't want to see that. Or perhaps this is a bad way to do it?

Then just don't make the Drop Pod too cheap.

The beta rules for Deep Strike make the Drop Pod unattractive anyway, so people won't take then even at 50 points.

I agree, to make the drop pod interesting it should be way cheaper, like 50-60 points, and with the ability to bypass the deepstrike limitations. I'd even cut the 9'' limitation for the pods in order to make them useful for meltas or flamers.

I like that idea too. I hate no first turn deep strike but it would be cool if marines could get around it somehow. Considering - they are shock troops.

Soooo just give marines everything for nothing?

Well - most armies can deep strike for a cp. paying 50-60 points for the ability to turn 1 DS seems fair.

Only it's not. I can understand SM players' confusion. After all, for many editions SM were the only army able to reliable drop turn 1 Deep Strikers with no scatter and no 3+ roll. but every single other army had to wait their turn 2 and roll their 3+ to even arrive, and then most of them also had to scatter, potentially off the table. So what is hell on earth for SM players now is actually familiar ground for every other faction/army.

Needless to say, I totally hated that fact, even before the skyhammer annihilation force nonsense arrived. I see absolutely no reason why would SM get exempted from a blanket rule that affects core gameplay and subjects every single army to the same restrictions. It's like being Tau and demanding that you get two rounds of shooting per turn because you are supposed to be a shooty army.

Yeah, imagine Leman Russ tanks or Obliterators shooting twice. That'd be crazy!

Watch him defend that by saying that the requirements are SUPER hard, because a Leman Russ standing still is hard to accomplish, as they're ALWAYS moving to get in range of something huh?