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I pay 1 CP to put an Adeptus Custodes unit in deep strike with From Golden Light They Come
I could deep strike it for free on Turn 2 but instead I pay 3CP to bring the unit in with "Vexilla Teleport Homer" to get that sweet, sweet 3 inch charge.

Here's the text.

Vexilla Teleport Homer
Adeptus Custodes Stratagem
Use this stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. When you set up a teleporting ADEPTUS CUSTODES unit you can set it up wholly within 6" of a friendly VEXILUS PRAETOR and more than 3" from enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up this way are destroyed.

Opponent plays Agents of Vect and cancels my Vexilla Teleport Homer.

What happens?

Option A) You can just deep strike them as normal
Option B) You can't deep strike them at this stage
Option C) Models are destroyed as they couldn't be set up as per the stratagem text

We played option A as we felt that Agents of Vect basically rewinds the game to the point before you chose to use the strat, but with that specific strat forbidden. Is this right?

I would say option B. The stratagem is cancelled, but it's also too late to declare their normal arrival rule. The "Any models that cannot be set up this way are destroyed" can't trigger because the entire stratagem is nullified, not just the first half.

Why is it to late to arrive via the normal rule? The stratagem does not place the unit for you. It changes the restriction on deepstriking. (When you set up...
You still have to deepstrike the unit after using the stratagem.

By cancelling Vexilla Teleport Homer you don't change the restrictions, so the normal rules for Deep Striking still apply and you can still Deepstrike as normal.

A.

 Ordana wrote:
Why is it to late to arrive via the normal rule? The stratagem does not place the unit for you. It changes the restriction on deepstriking. (When you set up...
You still have to deepstrike the unit after using the stratagem.

By cancelling Vexilla Teleport Homer you don't change the restrictions, so the normal rules for Deep Striking still apply and you can still Deepstrike as normal.

A.

Because you use the stratagem at the end of the phase. You must declare all the things that happen at the end of the phase simultaneously, then resolve them via the sequencing rule.

If you declare the stratagem, and then it's denied, you can't then declare the normal arrival because if you did, you didn't use the stratagem at the end of the turn, thus you broke the rules.

Again, the Vexilla Teleport does not deepstrike the unit for you it mere changes the restrictions for subsequent deepstrikes. You still declare that your unit is arriving via deepstrike and therefor while the stratagem is cancelled the unit still arrives.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Why is it to late to arrive via the normal rule? The stratagem does not place the unit for you. It changes the restriction on deepstriking. (When you set up...
You still have to deepstrike the unit after using the stratagem.

By cancelling Vexilla Teleport Homer you don't change the restrictions, so the normal rules for Deep Striking still apply and you can still Deepstrike as normal.

A.

Because you use the stratagem at the end of the phase. You must declare all the things that happen at the end of the phase simultaneously, then resolve them via the sequencing rule.

If you declare the stratagem, and then it's denied, you can't then declare the normal arrival because if you did, you didn't use the stratagem at the end of the turn, thus you broke the rules.

He MIGHT be able to declare both at once though. Normal arrival is also at the end of the phase. So if he declares the unit is arriving by stratagem and then declares it's arriving normally, he can then sequence the stratagem first and arrive normally if it fizzles, I think? Technically it's a valid unit for normal arrival until the stratagem pulls them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Again, the Vexilla Teleport does not deepstrike the unit for you it mere changes the restrictions for subsequent deepstrikes. You still declare that your unit is arriving via deepstrike and therefor while the stratagem is cancelled the unit still arrives.

'Deep Strike' doesn't exist in 8th. There's just arriving from reserves, however you do that.

Hmm, yeah if both are being declared at the end of the phase, then it would be option A. Depends on whether you read the stratagem as outright replacing the arrival rule or augmenting it.

If it's replacing, it's B, if it's augmenting it's A. Not 100% sure how it should be read myself now but on second look it does look like augmenting.

Ordana's interpretation is correct. You have two different "end of the movement phase" triggers:

"At the end of the movement phase these units can teleport into battle"

"Use this stratagem at the end of your movement phase"

So, those two things trigger simultaneously, teleporting into battle and using the stratagem. The Vexilla Telepor Homer goes on the say

"When you set up a teleporting ADEPTUS CUSTODES unit you can set it up wholly within 6" of a friendly VEXILUS PRAETOR and more than 3" from enemy models," replacing the normal setup requirements, etc, etc, but it does not itself teleport the Custodes into battle, that was already irrevocably triggered by From Golden Light They Came. If Agents of Vect is used to cancel the Teleport Homer, then that stratagem simply does not come into effect and replace those setup requirements, meaning that you would instead resolve it according to the normal limits.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is assuming BCB's assertion that you have to declare all "end of phase" actions simultaneously is correct. I don't know where it says that, but for the moment I'm just gonna give it the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind, per this interpretation, you actually MUST deep strike them normally if the teleport homer is cancelled.

If you don't declare them at the same time, after you resolve one it is too late to declare things at the end of the phase, since that has already passed. There is only one instant in time that is the end, everything that happens at the end must be declared/announced right then and there, at which point the sequencing rule is used to resolve them one at a time, with the phase ending as soon as they are all resolved.

"The end" is not inherently a single point in time, though.

Friday is "the end of the work week," but that doesn't mean Friday is a single instant in time.

"The end of the movement phase" can just as easily be interpreted as "after all other actions have been completed, but prior to beginning the shooting phase."

By that logic I can move my units after arriving at the end of the phase, which is not the case.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Why is it to late to arrive via the normal rule? The stratagem does not place the unit for you. It changes the restriction on deepstriking. (When you set up...
You still have to deepstrike the unit after using the stratagem.

By cancelling Vexilla Teleport Homer you don't change the restrictions, so the normal rules for Deep Striking still apply and you can still Deepstrike as normal.

A.

Because you use the stratagem at the end of the phase. You must declare all the things that happen at the end of the phase simultaneously, then resolve them via the sequencing rule.

If you declare the stratagem, and then it's denied, you can't then declare the normal arrival because if you did, you didn't use the stratagem at the end of the turn, thus you broke the rules.

I hope never to have to play someone who sees the game as you do. Where's the fun!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you don't declare them at the same time, after you resolve one it is too late to declare things at the end of the phase, since that has already passed. There is only one instant in time that is the end, everything that happens at the end must be declared/announced right then and there, at which point the sequencing rule is used to resolve them one at a time, with the phase ending as soon as they are all resolved.

You declare both the stratagem and reinforcements at the end of the phase, so you use sequencing. You sequence the stratagem first - if it goes off then, according to it, when you bring in reinforcements you set them up according to the stratagem. If Agents of Vect cancels it, then you go on to resolving the reinforcements coming in. No stratagem is affecting them, you haven't declared where they are coming in beforehand since you don't do that until you resolve where they come in at, so they can deep strike normally.

EDIT: With sequencing rules you have to resolve the stratagem first, otherwise you don't get to use it on the deep striking unit. The deep striking unit is still coming in though, whether or not the stratagem got cancelled by an outside force - whether or not the stratagem goes off only affects where the unit may deep strike.

Thanks for the feedback.

All in agreement with our decision which is that you can still Deep Strike them normally.

It was the wording "any units that can't be set up like this are destroyed" which made me think maybe that triggers if you fail to achieve the stratagem outcome... but its the whole stratagem being cancelled.