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Hi,

The Rubric Marines datasheet describes the units for Rubric marine and Aspiring Sorcerer. The datasheet gives the whole unit the keyword "Psyker". In the "Psyker" section of the datasheet, it mentions that the Aspiring sorcerer can cast and deny powers.

What happens when the Aspiring Sorcerer rolls perils of the warp? The psyker has to take d3 Mortal Wounds. These of course should transfer over to the other models in the unit as per normal MW. However, if the Aspiring dies, does this mean that the psyker dies too? The remaining of the unit remains and they also have the keyword, albeit they cannot cast powers any more. If the aspiring dies and counts as a psyker dying from Perils, does he explode for an extra d3 wounds? Essentially:

1. If the Aspiring dies, does he die from the d3 MW?
2. Am I allowed to allocate the d3 mortal wounds to the rubric unit, thus keeping the Aspiring Sorcerer alive? (Since I am usually able to allocate Mortal Wounds any way I want).
3. Does the unit suffer 1d3 or 2d3 mortal wounds?

Ultimately: If the Aspiring dies as a result of Perils, does it count as a psyker dying or not?

What is the exact wording of the ability that gives the whole unit "Psyker"? Does it mention how the models in the unit manifest their abilities, outside of the Aspiring Sorcerer?

I ask because I saw something in the rulebook that piques my interest in this question - but I don't want to get ahead of myself.

fe40k wrote:
What is the exact wording of the ability that gives the whole unit "Psyker"?

It's not an ability. It's a keyword. The datasheet "Rubric Marines" has the keyword "Psyker". Same way they have keywords for "Heretic Astartes", "Thousand Sons" etc.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

fe40k wrote:
What is the exact wording of the ability that gives the whole unit "Psyker"?

It's not an ability. It's a keyword. The datasheet "Rubric Marines" has the keyword "Psyker". Same way they have keywords for "Heretic Astartes", "Thousand Sons" etc.

Well, per the rules; "Psychic Powers: Unless stated otherwise, all psykers know the Smite psychic power, listed below."

Does this mean every model in the unit can manifest Smite? That's X*squad size smites coming out... ; Also per the rules though, "A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn". -- I'm sure it functions similarly as other units (Warlock Council, etc); the group itself is doing a combined casting, which limits them to 1/round. If they peril, they peril as a group, and choose who in the squad dies.

RAI though, I believe the intent is that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the one actually making magic happen; if he Perils, he can pawn the MW he receives off onto his squad mates - ultimately, the unit itself can keep smiting, until there are no units in the group remaining (as a unit, they know Smite).

fe40k wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

fe40k wrote:
What is the exact wording of the ability that gives the whole unit "Psyker"?

It's not an ability. It's a keyword. The datasheet "Rubric Marines" has the keyword "Psyker". Same way they have keywords for "Heretic Astartes", "Thousand Sons" etc.

Well, per the rules; "Psychic Powers: Unless stated otherwise, all psykers know the Smite psychic power, listed below."

Does this mean every model in the unit can manifest Smite? That's X*squad size smites coming out... ; Also per the rules though, "A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn". -- I'm sure it functions similarly as other units (Warlock Council, etc); the group itself is doing a combined casting, which limits them to 1/round. If they peril, they peril as a group, and choose who in the squad dies.

RAI though, I believe the intent is that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the one actually making magic happen; if he Perils, he can pawn the MW he receives off onto his squad mates - ultimately, the unit itself can keep smiting, until there are no units in the group remaining (as a unit, they know Smite).

Well in this case it is stated (otherwise) that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the one who can cast and deny. But does that mean that his unit is not psykers themselves??

topaxygouroun i wrote:

fe40k wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

fe40k wrote:
What is the exact wording of the ability that gives the whole unit "Psyker"?

It's not an ability. It's a keyword. The datasheet "Rubric Marines" has the keyword "Psyker". Same way they have keywords for "Heretic Astartes", "Thousand Sons" etc.

Well, per the rules; "Psychic Powers: Unless stated otherwise, all psykers know the Smite psychic power, listed below."

Does this mean every model in the unit can manifest Smite? That's X*squad size smites coming out... ; Also per the rules though, "A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn". -- I'm sure it functions similarly as other units (Warlock Council, etc); the group itself is doing a combined casting, which limits them to 1/round. If they peril, they peril as a group, and choose who in the squad dies.

RAI though, I believe the intent is that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the one actually making magic happen; if he Perils, he can pawn the MW he receives off onto his squad mates - ultimately, the unit itself can keep smiting, until there are no units in the group remaining (as a unit, they know Smite).

Well in this case it is stated (otherwise) that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the one who can cast and deny. But does that mean that his unit is not psykers themselves??

That's what I'm trying to find out; if they're each individually a Psyker, if they're a single Psyker as a group, or if the Aspiring Champion is the only one who can actually do anything - and how that would interact with Periling, MWs, and his ability to survive/pawn them off on his allies.

I'll be better able to investigate this later today.

Lots of threads on this already. Try a quick search.

Guys, read the datasheet. Just having the PSYKER keyword doesn't give you smite.

Only the sorcerer can use powers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Guys, read the datasheet. Just having the PSYKER keyword doesn't give you smite.

Only the sorcerer can use powers.

The question isn't who can use smite though. The question is, when exactly does the psyker die? When the Aspiring dies or when the last model in the unit dies? Or is every single model a psyker?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Guys, read the datasheet. Just having the PSYKER keyword doesn't give you smite.

Only the sorcerer can use powers.

The question isn't who can use smite though. The question is, when exactly does the psyker die? When the Aspiring dies or when the last model in the unit dies? Or is every single model a psyker?

The only model that can use powers is the sorcerer. If the sorcerer perils, it takes mortal wounds (which spill over as per Mortal wounds rules) then it dies. The reason it doesn't have the rule like Warlocks or Grey Knights have is precisely because it's the only model with powers in the unit. If he dies, he perils, then can explode.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Guys, read the datasheet. Just having the PSYKER keyword doesn't give you smite.

Only the sorcerer can use powers.

The question isn't who can use smite though. The question is, when exactly does the psyker die? When the Aspiring dies or when the last model in the unit dies? Or is every single model a psyker?

The only model that can use powers is the sorcerer. If the sorcerer perils, it takes mortal wounds (which spill over as per Mortal wounds rules) then it dies. The reason it doesn't have the rule like Warlocks or Grey Knights have is precisely because it's the only model with powers in the unit.

...and then what? Does he explode? Because I can still see my Psyker on the table. The Aspiring dying does not strip the Rubrics off their keyword.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Guys, read the datasheet. Just having the PSYKER keyword doesn't give you smite.

Only the sorcerer can use powers.

I disagree with you on the first part; the rulebook specifically says two things:

1) "Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet."
2) "Unless stated otherwise, all Psykers know the SMITE power, listed below."

Page 4, under "CHOOSE PSYKER AND POWER" section.

Based on the information provided in this thread; unless someone can point out where it says otherwise (please do), all models in the squad ARE Psykers, and therefore know Smite.

RAI - Only the Aspiring Sorcerer can do his junk.
RAW - See above

I already explained that the PSYKER keyword doesn't mean you have powers. Read the Psyker section of the datasheet, it's explicitly clear. If you don't understand even after reading then there is nothing I can do to help that.

The RaW explicitly calls out the Aspiring sorcerer my name. Is it non-standard? Yes, but it works perfectly fine within the rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I already explained that the PSYKER keyword doesn't mean you have powers. Read the Psyker section of the datasheet, it's explicitly clear. If you don't understand even after reading then there is nothing I can do to help that.

The RaW explicitly calls out the Aspiring sorcerer my name. Is it non-standard? Yes, but it works perfectly fine within the rules.

Please show me exactly where is says that having PSYKER doesn't give you powers. I can point out where it DOES.

But again - I don't have access to Battlescribe to check the exact wording (provided it was uploaded accurately) until later today.

Edit: Ah, you're saying that the Datasheet is what's stopping them from having powers - exactly why I asked for the exact wording of the rule in my first post in this thread... looks like this'll have to wait until I can review the wording it provides. -- That said, having the PSYKER tag means you can cast Smite - unless your datasheet specifically calls out that you can't.

fe40k wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I already explained that the PSYKER keyword doesn't mean you have powers. Read the Psyker section of the datasheet, it's explicitly clear. If you don't understand even after reading then there is nothing I can do to help that.

The RaW explicitly calls out the Aspiring sorcerer my name. Is it non-standard? Yes, but it works perfectly fine within the rules.

Please show me exactly where is says that having PSYKER doesn't give you powers.

I can point out where it DOES.

But again - I don't have access to Battlescribe to check the exact wording (provided it was uploaded accurately) until later today.

>Using battlescribe as a rules source.

You're meant to be using the rulebooks there bud. Edit:

Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet.

Unless stated otherwise, all psykers know the Smite psychic power, listed below. Some know other powers instead of, or in addition to, Smite – the model’s datasheets and other supplementary rules you are using will make it clear which powers each psyker knows.

So, the Rubrics do indeed know Smite, they simply don't have permission to use it, as per the emphasised rule.

AHEM.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I already explained that the PSYKER keyword doesn't mean you have powers. Read the Psyker section of the datasheet, it's explicitly clear. If you don't understand even after reading then there is nothing I can do to help that.

The RaW explicitly calls out the Aspiring sorcerer my name. Is it non-standard? Yes, but it works perfectly fine within the rules.

Once again, my question is NOT about powers. The unit has the psyker keyword. The Aspiring can cast the powers. When the Aspiring perils, the psyker takes d3 MW. The question is who takes that? Because if the whole unit is a psyker (regardless of who can or cannot cast powers) then the whole unit takes d3 MW, which I can allocate any way I like (so I can keep my Aspiring alive) and therefore my Psyker does not die via Perils and there is no explosion.

The question is who is the psyker, NOT who can cast the powers.

That seems to clear it up - I'll review later and re-address if needed.

Thanks.

The Psyker is the one who is casting the power. It says Psyker, not PSYKER.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Psyker is the one who is casting the power. It says Psyker, not PSYKER.

This is reaching. All the keywords are always in capitals. The section on who can cast the powers is also stated as PSYKER and not Psyker. I don't think this discussion will go far if we have to argue if the use of capital letters differentiates the meaning of the word.

<3 you BCB

That was one of the two main possibilites I was entertaining as the answer (seeing as how I don't play an army with Psyker Squads (Eldar Councils, Chaos, etc) -

Good to know that the Aspiring Sorcerer can kill himself, pass a few wounds onto his unfortunate squadmates, and then that's that for the squads ability to manifest any psychic powers going foward, as the Sorcerer is no longer around.

I love learning things/confirming their rulings.

Edit: @topaxygouroun i - BCB pointed out where the rules in the BRB that state the datasheet will contain the rules for what powers the unit can manifest; ultimately, the squadmates of the sorcerer ultimately KNOW the power, but they're unable to MANIFEST it, as their rules don't allow them to do so. Only the Aspiring Sorcerer is called out as being to manifest abilities.

If he dies, he might potentially bring down a few of his squadmates; then from then on, none of them can actually manifest anything further - they need their Aspiring Sorcerer (as he's the one who actually does it).

fe40k wrote:
<3 you BCB

That was one of the two main possibilites I was entertaining as the answer (seeing as how I don't play an army with Psyker Squads (Eldar Councils, Chaos, etc) -

Good to know that the Aspiring Sorcerer can kill himself, pass a few wounds onto his unfortunate squadmates, and then that's that for the squads ability to manifest any psychic powers going foward, as the Sorcerer is no longer around.

I love learning things/confirming their rulings.

Edit: @topaxygouroun i - BCB pointed out the rules in the BRB that state the datasheet will contain the rules for what powers the unit can manifest; ultimately, the squadmates of the sorcerer ultimately KNOW the power, but they're unable to MANIFEST it, as their rules don't allow them to do so. Only the Aspiring Sorcerer is called out as being to manifest abilities.

This was never my question. This was very clear to me from the start. The question is what happens when the psyker (whoever this is) dies from perils. It has nothing to do with who casts the powers or if the remaining models can cast powers or not any more.

Example: 5 rubrics + aspiring. Aspiring perils. Rolls 3 on his d3 for wounds.

Scenario 1: Aspiring and two more models die (MW spill over). Because the psyker (Aspiring) died, he explodes in 6" for d3 wounds.
Scenario 2: Aspiring and two more models die (MW spill over). The psyker is still alive (the unit has the Psyker keyword). Therefore, no explosion happens, but the unit cannot cast any more spells because the Aspiring is the only one who can cast powers.
Scenario 3: 3 MW are allocated to the unit. I am allowed to allocate the MW any way I like. I choose to kill 3 normal Rubrics, thus leaving the Aspiring alive. I am able to keep casting powers in the following turns.
Scenario 4: Every single Rubric Marine model is a psyker, but only the Aspiring can cast powers (On the BRB "Some models have the psyker keyword", not "some units"). 3 psykers die from the Perils. Each of them explodes for d3 MW within 6" (because a psyker died via Perils). Overall 3d3 MW happen and the universe itself implodes by just failing to cast a weakened smite properly

Which scenario is applicable and why? My point is towards 2 or 3, with 3 being the most logical scenario, as MW can be allocated at will all the time.

Scenario 4 is the most hilarious one because it makes you want to peril while in melee with the enemy since Rubrics suck so bad in melee. This has always been a problem unit in the rules for 8th since every other unit of psykers have rules for perils except Rubrics to my knowledge (or they can't peril ever like Horrors). I am personally of the opinion myself that RAW it's Scenario 4 since they are all pyskers dying to perils but RAI is just the Sorcerer dies and then blows up no matter if the Sorcerer took 1 or 3 wounds from the peril.

Here is a better question.

Let's assume the sorcerer perils and die...does he explode? Per the rule of perils explodeing is if the UNIT was killed by perils, the unit did not die but the only person able to cast was.

So how does that work?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Here is a better question.

Let's assume the sorcerer perils and die...does he explode? Per the rule of perils explodeing is if the UNIT was killed by perils, the unit did not die but the only person able to cast was.

So how does that work?

This is the only thing I have been asking from the beginning.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Here is a better question.

Let's assume the sorcerer perils and die...does he explode? Per the rule of perils explodeing is if the UNIT was killed by perils, the unit did not die but the only person able to cast was.

So how does that work?

This is the only thing I have been asking from the beginning.

They answer is no he does not explode as he is part of the unit and the unit did not die. Now if it killed the past rubric then you could explode.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Here is a better question.

Let's assume the sorcerer perils and die...does he explode? Per the rule of perils explodeing is if the UNIT was killed by perils, the unit did not die but the only person able to cast was.

So how does that work?

This is the only thing I have been asking from the beginning.

They answer is no he does not explode as he is part of the unit and the unit did not die. Now if it killed the past rubric then you could explode.

Then this begs the next step of the question: if all the unit is the psyker, it is treated as a 5 wound psyker. Then I could choose to allocate the d3 MW any way I like (because that's how MW works). So I could choose to kill d3 rubrics but leave the Aspiring alive. So I can keep casting on the following turns...

Sometimes I wish GW actually gave a teeny tiny effort for the smaller factions...

Technically speaking, I don't think there is anything stopping you from allocating wounds from perils to the rubic. But for RAI, I would say the first needs to be allocated to the caster because other wise it's a total that guy move.

What rules are you guys working from?

- The Aspiring Sorcerer is the Psyker casting the power - see Datasheet.
- If the AS suffers Perils of the Warp that model takes D3 wounds. Any ‘overspill’ will affect the AS’s unit, as per the MW rules.
- If the AS dies to Perils of the Warp units within 6” suffer D3 MW - nothing in the Perils of the Warp rules requires a ‘whole unit’ to die to trigger this, the wording is “If the psyker is slain by Perils of the Warp...”

The AS is not the Psyker. The whole unit has the Psyker keyword. That is the point in question.

A psyker is someone who has the Psyker keyword, not someone who can cast powers.