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Will you or anyone/place you know use the Beta rules?
Yes, we will use them every game
Yes, the place I go will use them and used the last beta rules
Yes, but only play testing games to gather feedback
No, but people I know will use them all the time
No, I and everyone I know won't use them until ready.

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Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






I feel a major problem with this FAQ is a lot of people are taking these Beta rules as law. I always thought (from a game developer background myself) an open beta was something you sent out to the public that was separate from the game to gain feedback regarding ideas and potential new features. Normally we would publish a separate client (basically a total different game for people to download) to test these changes. However, with these "Beta" rules people, And even tournaments of all places, take on these rules and just start using them as the main set of rules before they have even gone through testing. It's obvious the 40k devs have done what they always do and not thought about the rule for more than 10 seconds but they have done this for so long now I don't even contribute them to the problem or get angry at them (like a person who keeps falling over... eventually you get used to it and stop getting annoyed at them falling over). Although, this time they want us to think about it which is a good change... but we arn't! (Or at least if it's like the last beta, many of us arn't). A lot of people are just going to play with these rules that are obviously yet to be finished.

Yet, I don't know if it's GW'S fault or the player base. We have all become so reliant on holding GW'S hand that we need them to explicitly tell us word for word what we should do and GW (as far as i can see) has never told us to not use these rules in our normal games. Or if they have, they haven't repeated it of emphasised it anywhere. Therefore, I feel GW needed to really make a section called "Future Suggestions" or something with a little text box you can send your responses to (rather than call the rules beta rules). You would be really surprised in the gaming world how naming something differently will have a totally different response. If GW had named everything a suggestion for future content then people would likely have never played the rules at all outside play testing. (My personal experience saw us send out a game and accidentally calling it a full 1.0 build when it was really a Beta at about 0.8 (lots of bugs). People genuinely were put off by the game because they thought it was the final product whereas if we had named it a beta or early access our player base wouldn't have died within a few months. This was proven when we did another similar game and called it a Beta. People still play it even today!).

At the very least GW needed to make constant statements telling us to not use the rules outside of play testing and should have even sent out play testing events at local GW stores in order to get feedback from a lot of avarage players. Even if it was just an illusion a lot of players might have felt unique when given the opportunity to try out new rules in order to help develop the game they play and love.

I am putting out a poll now just to gather data on how many people will actually now use Beta rules in all their future games.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 15:41:55


 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





If GW made, 'suggestions', then people would lose their minds when, at a later date, GW adopted them as full rules. People aren't used to GW doing anything like this, and this is only the second set of 'Beta' rules GW has released. The Beta designation is best understood as, "This is a rule we intend to adopt. We welcome feedback on this future rule." Going forward, people should understand that Beta rules WILL be adopted (that is, GW will not say, "Oh, that Beta rule? We're scrapping the whole thing."), and it is only the final form of the Beta rule that players can influence with their feedback.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

We are gonna use them in tournaments just like with the last character and smite-nerf beta-rules.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





I voted yes to gather feedback. But I just really like diversity. Honesty compels me to admit that I'm on an average of 1 game every two months since october tough. Real life sucks.




 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





DCannon4Life wrote:
If GW made, 'suggestions', then people would lose their minds when, at a later date, GW adopted them as full rules. People aren't used to GW doing anything like this, and this is only the second set of 'Beta' rules GW has released. The Beta designation is best understood as, "This is a rule we intend to adopt. We welcome feedback on this future rule." Going forward, people should understand that Beta rules WILL be adopted (that is, GW will not say, "Oh, that Beta rule? We're scrapping the whole thing."), and it is only the final form of the Beta rule that players can influence with their feedback.


This. I strongly encourage people to start using the rules, because some form of it will be in the game by September.

Better you test it and give feedback instead of ignoring it.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Beta rules are suggestions.
   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Earth127 wrote:
I voted yes to gather feedback. But I just really like diversity. Honesty compels me to admit that I'm on an average of 1 game every two months since october tough. Real life sucks.


I live in a country thatbhas never even heard of warhammer or games workshop. The best I can do is wait until I'm back home in england so hopefully this will have all blown over by then. XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
DCannon4Life wrote:
If GW made, 'suggestions', then people would lose their minds when, at a later date, GW adopted them as full rules. People aren't used to GW doing anything like this, and this is only the second set of 'Beta' rules GW has released. The Beta designation is best understood as, "This is a rule we intend to adopt. We welcome feedback on this future rule." Going forward, people should understand that Beta rules WILL be adopted (that is, GW will not say, "Oh, that Beta rule? We're scrapping the whole thing."), and it is only the final form of the Beta rule that players can influence with their feedback.


This. I strongly encourage people to start using the rules, because some form of it will be in the game by September.

Better you test it and give feedback instead of ignoring it.


But I really don't think people shoudk adopt them in competitive games where prizes are available. It's more than obvious (from the amount of problems already discussed) these rukes are not finished and really are beta rules... even more than usual for 40k.this is why i suggest play testing events either held officiallyby GW or by local gaming groups to gather feedback.

Plus in my mind there's no difference between adopting the rules tomorrow or by next September. Unless in play testing and friendly games to push feedbakc thst hopefully (if gw tells the truth) they will actually listen to.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 15:49:40


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






These beta rules exist for a reason. We can't really "ignore" them and submit to the toxic meta that reared it's head in tournaments recently for 6 months until chapter approved comes again. Soup and first turn deep strikers 9" away were both quite problematic for the game and kept many other lists from being able to effectively compete. Just because the beta rules don't favor you (subjective you, not opening poster you) this round doesn't make it acceptable to ignore them. No one really complained about the character targeting rules or smite rules last round, both implemented to fix egregious imbalances in competitive list building. If you(still not targeting you specifixally lolman1c) don't like the rules that exist for MATCHED play, the competitive default, it might make sense to play open or narrative play where you can deepstrike an entire army and use the stratagems as many times as you feel fits your theme.

As it is, these beta fixes are all we have in terms of rapid response to unforeseen lists that are oppressive to the game. And therefore, if you are playing competitively (IE matched play) you ought to use them and give feedback as to how it affects the balance, and if it ruins your experience, play in a format you enjoy.

Maybe I have too strict an opinion here, but if I want a competitive game, I'd like both parties on the most recent and balanced version of the rules.

Thanks,
Joe
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Of course I'm going to use them. What good are beta rules if we don't extensively test them and give feedback?

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




TBH, it sounds like you're just salty about a new rule. Anyway, I think this is misguided for a couple of reasons.

First, these aren't really beta rules, in the sense you mean. GW put them out there because they think that they are an improvement over the old rules. This isn't "we have this crazy idea we'd like you to try out but we're not making any promises". They're not telling people not to use them because they actually do want people to use them. They're a "beta" because GW expects to be modifying them slightly within six months. So they're about as much of a beta as each new codex release.

Second, tournaments "of all places" are going to use these rules because lots of tournament organizers and players were involved in their preparation and they think these rules are an improvement. In general, tournaments are going to value responsiveness over perfect balance; even if the beta rules are just as unbalanced, the fact that they change up the meta will mask that for at least a month or two.

Third, the last thing GW wants is for people to disagree about what the rules are in a pick-up game. If every tournament is using the beta rules, lots of players are going to use them. If GW goes out of their way to say that you don't have to use the beta rules and it's perfectly okay to ignore them, that's just asking for arguments about whether to use them or not when one player built a list expecting them to be in effect and another didn't.

The use of "beta" is just branding. It's a real release that you expect people to play and even pay money for, you're just not wanting them to be mad at you if it has problems. When you yourself put out these games you've helped make, you weren't expecting people to only play them in order to offer feedback, right? Everyone knows that "early access" is just a way of releasing a game that still has lots of issues. There's nothing wrong with that -- it's good to be open about the state of the game -- but let's also be honest that the point is to be able to sell copies of a game that people wouldn't find acceptable as a "real" release.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 16:10:14


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 lolman1c wrote:


But I really don't think people shoudk adopt them in competitive games where prizes are available. It's more than obvious (from the amount of problems already discussed) these rukes are not finished and really are beta rules... even more than usual for 40k.this is why i suggest play testing events either held officiallyby GW or by local gaming groups to gather feedback.

Plus in my mind there's no difference between adopting the rules tomorrow or by next September. Unless in play testing and friendly games to push feedbakc thst hopefully (if gw tells the truth) they will actually listen to.


Sure I think people might need a month or two to understand and start real list building. Tournaments are most likely to pick it up though.

After GW modified the smite rule in an appropriate way i'm totally confident that we'll get sensible tweaks.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not only is Beta rules an amazing idea but "suggestions" would be terrible. Beta rules allow them to gather mass amounts of data from the community over a good amount of time and then make a change. This way the community can interact with the rule and see how it affects games, the percentage of games won, the percentage of games played with x unit, style of armies and more. They can now see if they want to adopt it to an official rule without causing a huge fuss because it was always a "bata" and never a guarantee to be officially implemented in the same way if at all.

Suggestions would just lead to the same overreactions but without a large number of people playing with them which means they would get less data and at the end of the day worse rules.
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





GW needs to make rules, not suggestions.

They need to be absolutely clear what the rules are and what the current valid and invalid units and supplements are.


Otherwise nobody knows what the hell is going on.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Will be using them to see how they do (already know but people still want to test), then send good/bad feedback.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 lolman1c wrote:

But I really don't think people shoudk adopt them in competitive games where prizes are available. It's more than obvious (from the amount of problems already discussed) these rukes are not finished and really are beta rules... even more than usual for 40k.this is why i suggest play testing events either held officiallyby GW or by local gaming groups to gather feedback.

I would argue that using the Beta rules should absolutely be played in competitive games, because most of the rules are intended for Matched play events.
You will get the best feedback from these events as the player base there is intentionally trying to break the rules to get the prizes.
"Official" GW held events would be incredibly limited in scope

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 16:59:14


   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Weird delayed double post. Sorry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 17:06:56


   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Aren't Beta rules already suggestions?
I mean, that's what the beta stage is for, isn't it? To test suggestions for gameplay mechanics?

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in mx
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

See them this way. Ignore them now and you will have to play with them in 5-6 months.

Or play them now and hopefully have a more refined version in 5-6 months.

Either way, tournaments cannot afford to ignore them.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

GW should makes rules, not suggestions. I don't pay money for suggestions.

GW should also make high quality rules that are thoroughly tested.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

 Blacksails wrote:
GW should makes rules, not suggestions. I don't pay money for suggestions.

GW should also make high quality rules that are thoroughly tested.


I truly don't understand the attitude of the player base here. For the longest time it was "GW ignores us and dosen't fix anything!" Now its "GW is going to fast, why are they fixing things!" and then we have the "They aren't playtesting enough!" and then they release rules like this that are pretty much the PERFECT way to test. They aren't testing among a select few experts, or people who play a very particular way (like the GW staff does), they are having EVERYONE look at it. No amount of internal testing will find these things, theres a reason why video games have open betas, and continue to have open beta servers for people to test on (and they still pay for the right to do so!) so by having us take it for a whirl they can see its impact, refine it, then re-release something a little more workable. A good example is the smite rule, which ended up being changed to be more fair for allowing for super smite and giving Thousand Sons and Grey Knights (aka the smite armies) to be exempt. There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced and static rule set in any game, especially one that regularly is introducing new elements and units all the time. I'd say go play chess but even that favors the player who has white pieces.

Also lets keep in mind that you are not being forced to play the new rules in any way, you are more than welcome to find like minded opponents who enjoy the rulebook as is.

17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 generalchaos34 wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
GW should makes rules, not suggestions. I don't pay money for suggestions.

GW should also make high quality rules that are thoroughly tested.


I truly don't understand the attitude of the player base here. For the longest time it was "GW ignores us and dosen't fix anything!" Now its "GW is going to fast, why are they fixing things!" and then we have the "They aren't playtesting enough!" and then they release rules like this that are pretty much the PERFECT way to test. They aren't testing among a select few experts, or people who play a very particular way (like the GW staff does), they are having EVERYONE look at it. No amount of internal testing will find these things, theres a reason why video games have open betas, and continue to have open beta servers for people to test on (and they still pay for the right to do so!) so by having us take it for a whirl they can see its impact, refine it, then re-release something a little more workable. A good example is the smite rule, which ended up being changed to be more fair for allowing for super smite and giving Thousand Sons and Grey Knights (aka the smite armies) to be exempt. There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced and static rule set in any game, especially one that regularly is introducing new elements and units all the time. I'd say go play chess but even that favors the player who has white pieces.

Also lets keep in mind that you are not being forced to play the new rules in any way, you are more than welcome to find like minded opponents who enjoy the rulebook as is.


Well let's clear a few things up, because posts like this are as problematic, if not more so, then any sort of baseless complaining.

First of all, the player base isn't a hive mind. There is a different attitude for every different person.

Second of all, complaining about GW ignoring the players was a valid excuse for a number of years, when they did nothing for the game (and was arguably at its worst in 7th).

Third, complaining about the changes is valid if the complaints are backed with some sort of reasoning.

Fourth, putting out beta rules is a good move, because it is public testing. Feedback is expected and encouraged, and of course, some people will dislike the changes.

Fifth, no one ever expects perfect balance. What people want is good balance, which still eludes GW and 40k by a significant margin. Considering how large GW is and their years of experience, it constantly baffles me that they struggle with basic, simple, obvious balance issues and putting out a confused, muddled ruleset that achieves neither the simplicity of a beer and pretzels game nor the depth of a better wargame.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

Wow, I can't believe 55% will use the beta rules ! I am not even thinking over using them myselft^^

   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Don't really know to be honest. My FLGS hasn't really used them for as far as I know, and since I haven't had the opportunity to play a tournament at my usual venue for about 6 months now (somehow something that's more important always manages to come up on EXACTLY the dates they host tourneys) I'm completely in the dark about how they've gone about it. Still, I'm very unhappy about the abomination that is the new/beta deepstrike ruleset so I'm definitely making myself heard about that one even if maybe I'll get to use the old/ current (?) ruleset for a couple more months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blacksails wrote:
 generalchaos34 wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
GW should makes rules, not suggestions. I don't pay money for suggestions.

GW should also make high quality rules that are thoroughly tested.


I truly don't understand the attitude of the player base here. For the longest time it was "GW ignores us and dosen't fix anything!" Now its "GW is going to fast, why are they fixing things!" and then we have the "They aren't playtesting enough!" and then they release rules like this that are pretty much the PERFECT way to test. They aren't testing among a select few experts, or people who play a very particular way (like the GW staff does), they are having EVERYONE look at it. No amount of internal testing will find these things, theres a reason why video games have open betas, and continue to have open beta servers for people to test on (and they still pay for the right to do so!) so by having us take it for a whirl they can see its impact, refine it, then re-release something a little more workable. A good example is the smite rule, which ended up being changed to be more fair for allowing for super smite and giving Thousand Sons and Grey Knights (aka the smite armies) to be exempt. There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced and static rule set in any game, especially one that regularly is introducing new elements and units all the time. I'd say go play chess but even that favors the player who has white pieces.

Also lets keep in mind that you are not being forced to play the new rules in any way, you are more than welcome to find like minded opponents who enjoy the rulebook as is.


Well let's clear a few things up, because posts like this are as problematic, if not more so, then any sort of baseless complaining.

First of all, the player base isn't a hive mind. There is a different attitude for every different person.

Second of all, complaining about GW ignoring the players was a valid excuse for a number of years, when they did nothing for the game (and was arguably at its worst in 7th).

Third, complaining about the changes is valid if the complaints are backed with some sort of reasoning.

Fourth, putting out beta rules is a good move, because it is public testing. Feedback is expected and encouraged, and of course, some people will dislike the changes.

Fifth, no one ever expects perfect balance. What people want is good balance, which still eludes GW and 40k by a significant margin. Considering how large GW is and their years of experience, it constantly baffles me that they struggle with basic, simple, obvious balance issues and putting out a confused, muddled ruleset that achieves neither the simplicity of a beer and pretzels game nor the depth of a better wargame.


Honestly I'm very happy that GW is taking an active stance in fixing things that are overpowered, however things like the new deepstrike ruleset are like killing a Gaunt with a Volcano Cannon. Why come up with game-wide deepstrike restrictions when it's only a handful of outliers that need to be fixed and gutting every unit that relied on a 1st turn deepstrike to be viable (viable, not overpowered) in the process? Anything melee that deepstrikes and can't reroll charges now has a 75+% chance of doing nothing for about half the game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 18:58:33


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 godardc wrote:
Wow, I can't believe 55% will use the beta rules ! I am not even thinking over using them myselft^^

What do you intend to do when these rules become finalized? Just keep ignoring them?
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




United Kingdom

If you don't play them how are you going to know that they do or do not work? Beta test rules are there to fix issues, alter the Meta and have players email back what they found worked or not with them. Whether you play tournaments or home games, it is better to include them.

40k: Space Marines (Rift Wardens) - 8050pts.
T9A: Vampire Covenants 2060pts. 
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

 Arachnofiend wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Wow, I can't believe 55% will use the beta rules ! I am not even thinking over using them myselft^^

What do you intend to do when these rules become finalized? Just keep ignoring them?

No, playing them, why would I ignore rules ?
But I am not a beta tester, I am a gamer, I use rules, not unfinished beta rules that may be changed in some weeks.
I like these beta rules, I think they are good, but until they are officialy released as rules after having been tested, I will avoid them as much as I can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 23:46:03


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 lolman1c wrote:
But I really don't think people shoudk adopt them in competitive games where prizes are available.


Why not? Every tournament uses various house rules and "suggestions" (for example, the suggested 3-detachment limit) to improve the game. Given that GW's beta rules are both good ideas and likely to become official in the near future I don't see why they should be rejected. And I certainly don't see any justification for a blanket "no beta rules" policy.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




edit

I could be wrong, need to double check my facts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 23:55:26


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

I've already used the beta rules in several games. I'm collecting specific instances where they prove problematic and sending the feedback to Games Workshop in a politely worded letter.

Balancing my lists is never easy, and I don't like having to go back to them based on a set of rules that will likely change. That said, I really don't like the way it used to be, with seriously-defective Codexes that would stay the same for years. I know so many people who left the game because their army sucked and got worse every time a new Codex came out.

Happy to support beta rules, hoping GW gets better at implementing them.

   
Made in au
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





The main problem with beta rules, IMO, is that they promote exactly this sort of discussion. If GW had just said "These are the new official rules, we'll revisit them in September," then we wouldn't be talking about whether or not to adopt them.

By making them a "beta" (which clearly conveys different degrees of official mandate to different people) all they're really doing is putting the use of these rules up for discussion. That means, inevitably, that no matter what set of rules a tournament, FLGS or local community chooses to apply, someone is going to feel that the wrong decision has been made.

Blaming GW for making the wrong decisions has a long history (for good reason), but the company and the game have always endured just fine. Offloading the decision of whether to use these rules to the local level can and has fractured small communities in the past, so I think it's irresponsible of GW to run things this way.

If GW wants to change and adapt the rules over time, I'm all for it - but I think they should step up and own it. Just make every change an official change, not a wishy-washy half measure. If there's an outcry about how it's ruining the game, and that's supported by actual data, they can always change it again at any time.
   
 
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