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What is the fair cost for the Ork Deffkopta. Currently the Deffkopta is 79pts with Kopta Rokkitz (Assault 2 Range 24, S8 AP-2 3dmg), comes with a "Bigbomm" which when dropped on a unit does a mortal wound on a roll of a 5+ (you get 1 roll for every model in the unit up to 5) its WS3+ BS5+ T5 S4 2 attacks 4W 4+ save and LD 6. Even with assault 2 this thing will statistically only hit twice in 3 turns.




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Also, if you think the price should be even lower then 55pts let me know.

Well with the change to DS rules they're price is going to be difficult to assess. You're paying for a unit that could potentially miss a turn but actually might work well if you deploy it on your front lines.

For me the biggest problem with the koptas is not their price it's their random usefulness. There is no Risk vs Reward. Some games I can kill an enemy character if I get super lucky (like a 1/72 chance sometimes) but other games I'll miss every single shot and get instant killed upon CC. They're is definitely more risk in taking them than reward.

What I can say about price is that they're really too expensive to take more than 3 and it's getting harder to find the models for them anyway. I tend to not take them because they break easy on transport and not worth the risk of damaged models sometimes. But if they were 50-60 points per model I could see them as nice Orky Speed freaks alternatives to Mega Nobz.

A deffkopta with rokkits would still barely be competitive at 55 points. It is a jetbike, not an aeroplane. A warkopta is 80 points, it has 8 wounds, two bombs, two deff guns, a big shoota and is an open topped transports with room for ten.

To fix the deffkopta it needs a major rework. I don't think it is the kind of unit that can be fixed with a simple price reduction.

ohh, and please post your reasoning if you would be so kind. I would love to hear from the person who says they are perfectly priced as is right now.

I think part of the issue (not just with these but with Orks in general) is that their missiles do a straight 3 damage (compared to d3 damage for most normal missiles). I know that they're only BS5+, but the 3 damage skews things by making them do more damage when they do land a hit.

Another aspect is that their stats are a bit weird. They have 4 wounds (more than a Necron Destroyer!), but have just 2 attacks each. So they have as many wounds as 2 Bikers, but the same number of attacks as just one bike (which is unusual as they're both an Ork unit and also one that seems to want to be at least semi-melee).

I've voted 55pts, but I think their statline could really use a rethink.

SemperMortis wrote:
ohh, and please post your reasoning if you would be so kind. I would love to hear from the person who says they are perfectly priced as is right now.

I would presume it's the same reason GW has for pricing things in the Ork index that high. Even though it's BS5+ it might maybe if yah super lucky hit all shots and wound all shots. It's why I think they price things like the big shoota weirdly. They consider potential damage rather than how likely it is that it will do the damage.


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 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I think part of the issue (not just with these but with Orks in general) is that their missiles do a straight 3 damage (compared to d3 damage for most normal missiles). I know that they're only BS5+, but the 3 damage skews things by making them do more damage when they do land a hit.

Another aspect is that their stats are a bit weird. They have 4 wounds (more than a Necron Destroyer!), but have just 2 attacks each. So they have as many wounds as 2 Bikers, but the same number of attacks as just one bike (which is unusual as they're both an Ork unit and also one that seems to want to be at least semi-melee).

I've voted 55pts, but I think their statline could really use a rethink.

I might be erong but doesn't most Ork stuff have a DX damage profile and it's really just rockets and lootas?

Also the cc thing is weird... don't they get d3 attacks? (Don't have the index with me right now). So even though they have spinning blades going super fast they again might only get 2 attacks or 6... again, unreliable and hard to price... GW prop figures they will get 6 attacks more the time but they obviously don't have my luck.

They have two attacks but their Spinny Blades get D3 hit rolls instead of 1, so they have a random 2-6 attacks. Even then, they are at S5 so still not that good.

 lolman1c wrote:

Also the cc thing is weird... don't they get d3 attacks? (Don't have the index with me right now). So even though they have spinning blades going super fast they again might only get 2 attacks or 6... again, unreliable and hard to price... GW prop figures they will get 6 attacks more the time but they obviously don't have my luck.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They have two attacks but their Spinny Blades get D3 hit rolls instead of 1, so they have a random 2-6 attacks. Even then, they are at S5 so still not that good.

The other aspect is that it makes the Killsaw upgrade useless, because taking it drops you back down to just 2 attacks.

It most likely wont be in the codex sadly....

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It most likely wont be in the codex sadly....

Gw sells the model. But funny thing is I can't say in my entire time wargaming I've ever seen the model first hand. Always the plastic one...

I play with 2-3, run as separate units, to try to grab back field objectives and snipe,
but I agree their BS makes the chances of real firepower impact low

" funny thing is I can't say in my entire time wargaming I've ever seen the model first hand. Always the plastic one..."

yep, I've got 8 of the old plastics,
3 Big shoota conversions,
3 rockit racks
2 custom kannon(?) conversion

no plans to ever buy the other type

I think 60 pts would be good...

Still pretty early but I think its a bit telling that 90% of the vote seems to think the Kopta is about 30-40% over priced.

In regards to the Spinning Blades/Killsaw, I only posted the # of attacks specifically for that reason, because you have 2 options, neither of which is good or justifies the price in my opinion. 2D3 attacks at S5 OR 2 attacks at S8 -3 AP. Maybe if the two stacked it would be decent :p

40-45 points. I'd never use koptas at 55 points, especially if we get massive points reductions for other units.


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
It most likely wont be in the codex sadly....

Maybe not the rokkits option, but there's an official model on the website.

Sometimes I run one Deffkopta. Not because I think it's good, but just because I think they're cool. I've got over thirty of them, although most currently broken and/or poorly painted.

The best thing about the single Deffkopta is that my opponents often forget I have it, so I can sometimes have it come in from a table edge and attack a support character. Even so, it usually doesn't manage to kill said support character.

I don't know what the proper points cost is for them. It's far too high right now. They're a lot of points for something that doesn't have a good alpha strike and isn't that hard for a single anti-tank weapon to kill.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I think part of the issue (not just with these but with Orks in general) is that their missiles do a straight 3 damage (compared to d3 damage for most normal missiles). I know that they're only BS5+, but the 3 damage skews things by making them do more damage when they do land a hit.

Aren't most missiles d6 damage? I guess I'm mostly used to krak and hunter-killer missiles.

55pts. BS5+, S5 spinnin' blades. I mean this fills a similar role to an Attack Bike in my opinion. Only with a 5+BS, better melee, but worse armour save. So I think it should be fairly cheap.

Rocket buggies are 57 points after CA, and koptas/buggies have been similar pointswise for a while. So I'd base my guess on where GW's head is on that.

Hopefully the recent rule change to deepstrike will be reflected with an appropriate points decrease.

I think the main issue is that they still vastly overvalue rokkits and twinlinking in general for Orks.

I'm ok with the 30ish points they have for buggies being applied to Koptas, but 24 points for TL rokkits?

Don't get me started on twinlink Ork weapons. There is a list out there that shows how Ork weapons (even before the codex rush) were the only weapons to be more than double their points for being twin linked. Some factions had had 1 or 2 weapons priced double than just 1 but Orks entire twinlink weapon list was almost double or morr. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, some were higher priced than space marine alternatives!

pismakron wrote:
A deffkopta with rokkits would still barely be competitive at 55 points. It is a jetbike, not an aeroplane. A warkopta is 80 points, it has 8 wounds, two bombs, two deff guns, a big shoota and is an open topped transports with room for ten.

To fix the deffkopta it needs a major rework. I don't think it is the kind of unit that can be fixed with a simple price reduction.

This is the only truth. If you drop the points low enough you'll be able to mess around with a unit that is too durable for its points, but still won't be able to kill jack.

In order for koptas to go back to their intended role of tank hunting, kopta rokkits should go to being assault 4 (the plastic kopta does have four rokkits after all) and adjust the price accordingly.

Similar issue with the killsaw. In previous edition the kopta buzzsaw has been its own entry, so it should return to being that and have meaningful function, without a -1 to hit penalty. A statline similar to the kan klaw would be appreciated. IMO being able to hit is more important than doubling strength if you only have two attacks.

They're kinda pointless units as they are now. LD6 means you'd be insane to take them in squads and with the new rules we can only take 3 which is not much if anything.

I think if their LD was increased to 8 so we could at least take squads of 3 safely and maybe give them a rule that allows reroll on the rokkits against certain targets, like those with the <fly> keyword, 60 pts would be fair.

They need a niche.

55pts seems the most reasonable.

Don't know about other missiles, but IG ones do d6 damage.

 lolman1c wrote:
Don't get me started on twinlink Ork weapons. There is a list out there that shows how Ork weapons (even before the codex rush) were the only weapons to be more than double their points for being twin linked. Some factions had had 1 or 2 weapons priced double than just 1 but Orks entire twinlink weapon list was almost double or morr. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, some were higher priced than space marine alternatives!

The twin-linked premium was fixed in Chapter approved, and the the price of twin-linked shootas andkopta rokkits are now double that of the single weapon.

Both the rokkit and the big shoota is still overpriced, though, especially the big shoota. And even if you ignore that, hey are still too weak to do anything useful. You could make them free, and they would still not impact the game meaningfully. I don't know how to fix that.

pismakron wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Don't get me started on twinlink Ork weapons. There is a list out there that shows how Ork weapons (even before the codex rush) were the only weapons to be more than double their points for being twin linked. Some factions had had 1 or 2 weapons priced double than just 1 but Orks entire twinlink weapon list was almost double or morr. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, some were higher priced than space marine alternatives!

The twin-linked premium was fixed in Chapter approved, and the the price of twin-linked shootas andkopta rokkits are now double that of the single weapon.

Both the rokkit and the big shoota is still overpriced, though, especially the big shoota. And even if you ignore that, hey are still too weak to do anything useful. You could make them free, and they would still not impact the game meaningfully. I don't know how to fix that.

No, but that's the joke. With BS5+they should be less than double in some cases. For Space Marines they're often less than double for twin linked weapons. And even CA points just kinda seemed lazy... like "these units that arnt used very often we will ignore while maybe fixing some random stuff. Maybe thatbwas their plan all along but the community hyped it up like we were finally going to compete with codex armies.

At 55 points they need a better profile. Like a killsaw included in that price. Rocket buggies at 57 points are considered quite overcosted, and in fact they are.

 Blackie wrote:
At 55 points they need a better profile. Like a killsaw included in that price. Rocket buggies at 57 points are considered quite overcosted, and in fact they are.

Part of me just really wants to sit down the the GW dev and just talk to them about why they priced Ork units like they did... I wouldn't get angry at them. I just need 4o know what was going through their minds at the time.

In hindsight I agree with you all that the points cost isn't low enough to justify the Kopta still, Maybe 55pts with a profile update, but either way I appreciate the responses.

Honestly I think points are a useless thing when it comes to balancing. I'd pay 2k points for a trukk if it was worth 2k points. Really the kopta could be 12 pts but I'd expect it to perform like a 12pt unit or it could be a 75pt unit but I want it to perform like one. It doesn't matter thst points it is as long as the profile fits it.

 lolman1c wrote:
Honestly I think points are a useless thing when it comes to balancing. I'd pay 2k points for a trukk if it was worth 2k points. Really the kopta could be 12 pts but I'd expect it to perform like a 12pt unit or it could be a 75pt unit but I want it to perform like one. It doesn't matter thst points it is as long as the profile fits it.

I agree completely, but for the sake of this thread we are trying to figure out how many points this unit should be based on what its current stats are. Another thread could be "since this unit costs X, what should its stats be".

I'll start considering them at 40 ppm. Otherwise, there's no point to spoil greentide target saturation. For mech maybe 45. But that's the maximum cause mech has tankbustas in trukks.

I know we shouldn't but let's compare them to a terminator (for example). They play a similar role as hunters of specific targets. However, 5 kopptas is about 400pts (almost double 10 terminators) but we also think terminators are overpriced (especially with the beta rules). Now people could make more comparisons or even make distinctions between the two units but at the value of the terminator (about 50pts) would people still see them as priced fairly when we think terminators need a price slash?

This is a question I present to someone because I kake all my posts on my tablet so doing a full researched post is stupidly hard.

Rokkits are costed well for Tankbustaz, but no one else. Drop the cost of Rokkits to 8 and the twin to 16. Make Tankbustaz 9 points base.

The other bizzare thing is the Bigbomm is 0 points, which leads me to believe they built it into the cost of the Deffkopta, but didn't make it stock equipment. It's probably worth 10 points so remove that from the base cost. Drop bomm cost to 5.

Base cost is now 45. Two chaos bikers are 46. Deffkopta with rokkits is 61. With bomm is 66.