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If I drop down a squad of Allarus Custodians with a Vexilus Praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica and my opponent uses Auspex Scan to try and shoot at them as they arrive from deep strike, if they normally have a BS of 3+ and with the -1 to hit from Auspex Scan would they actually only hit on 5+ because of the Vexilla Magnifica aura? Auspex Scan says to treat the shooting as if it were the Shooting phase and the Vexilla Magnifica specifically states it grants the -1 to hit during the Shooting phase, so I'm guessing any rules that apply during the Shooting phase also applies during Auspex Scan?

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If I drop down a squad of Allarus Custodians with a Vexilus Praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica and my opponent uses Auspex Scan to try and shoot at them as they arrive from deep strike, if they normally have a BS of 3+ and with the -1 to hit from Auspex Scan would they actually only hit on 5+ because of the Vexilla Magnifica aura? Auspex Scan says to treat the shooting as if it were the Shooting phase and the Vexilla Magnifica specifically states it grants the -1 to hit during the Shooting phase, so I'm guessing any rules that apply during the Shooting phase also applies during Auspex Scan?

"As if" is not the same as "is".

The Vexilla Magnifica explicitly says it only works in the Shooting Phase.

Are you in the Shooting Phase? No, so it doesn't apply. Period.

It doesn't matter if you're acting as if it were, it actually isn't. And even if that were an argument, only the attacking unit is acting as if it were the shooting phase, not the Vexilus.

I thought given that it was confirmed that Auspex Scan can't target characters if they're not the closest model (a rule specific to the Shooting phase) means that the entire interaction for both players is treated as if it were the Shooting phase, therefore any Shooting phase rules would apply? If GW was willing to make that clarification for that situation, I don't see why they would need to specifically state to "treat it as if it were the Shooting phase" if they didn't intend other Shooting phase rules to apply as well in that scenario. They could've simply left that part out entirely if that's the case and there wouldn't be any ambiguity and the stratagem would still work the way you think it does.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I thought given that it was confirmed that Auspex Scan can't target characters if they're not the closest model (a rule specific to the Shooting phase) means that the entire interaction for both players is treated as if it were the Shooting phase, therefore any Shooting phase rules would apply? If GW was willing to make that clarification for that situation, I don't see why they would need to specifically state to "treat it as if it were the Shooting phase" if they didn't intend other Shooting phase rules to apply as well in that scenario. They could've simply left that part out entirely if that's the case and there wouldn't be any ambiguity and the stratagem would still work the way you think it does.

If they "intended" for Auspex Scan to be affected by the Vexilla Magnifica then they would errata the rules to say so.

"All the normal restrictions of the Shooting phase still apply" doesn't mean "It is now the Shooting Phase for all purposes."

The Vexilla Magnifica explicitly works ONLY in the shooting phase. Not the movement phase, not when something is acting as if it were the shooting phase. It works in the Shooting Phase. Period.

Simple, yes or no question "Is it the shooting phase right now." If the answer is No, then the Vexilla Magnifica does not work. You can't take an FAQ from an unrelated portion of the game and try and apply it to another rule. The FAQ applies only to the character rule, not anything else. There is a reason they are called Special Snowflake FAQs.

Now, if GW were to give a blanket Special Snowflake FAQ that says "as if" is equivalent to "is", then so be it, though that would open up a bigger can of worms than it solves IMHO.

Except they aren’t called Special Snowflake FAQs. Stop trying to make ‘fetch’ happen.

From the adeptus custodes FAQ :

Q: How does the Ever Vigilant Stratagem interact with
Characters with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
Can Ever Vigilant allow a unit to target such a Character
who arrives as reinforcements even if they are not the closest
enemy unit?

A: No, unless they shoot weapons that can target
Characters even if they are not the closest enemy unit.

The ever vigilant stratagem, this is not the actual text, i was unable to find it on the web :

Ever Vigilant: For 2CP, use this strat after your opponent has set up a unit that has come on to the field as reinforcements within 12″. You can shoot at them as if it was the Shooting phase with a -1 to hit.

We know that character shooting restrictions only apply in the shooting phase. Why would ever vigilant not be able to target characters with a wound characteristic of less than 10, when its not the shooting phase ? This implies that "as if it was the shooting phase" all restrictions and rules of the shooting phase do apply.

Again, the restrictions of the shooting phase only apply to the shooting unit, and only because of special snowflake FAQs to those specific stratagems.

The Vexilla Magnifica explicitly works ONLY in the shooting phase. Not the movement phase, not when something is acting as if it were the shooting phase, not whenever a unit shoots at them. It works in the Shooting Phase. Period.

If I have a stratagem that says "Use this in the Morale Phase", it doesn't matter if something causes me to take a Morale Test outside the Morale Phase, it's not the actual Morale Phase.

I get what you're saying, my only hang up is GW specifically stating "treat it as if it were the shooting phase". That part alone opens the floodgates for rules and restrictions to apply. If they didn't intend for that, why even include that part in the first place? What is the purpose of it? You can't just cherry pick which restrictions and rules to apply just because GW didn't specifically mention that scenario. If shooting phase specific rules for character targeting is fair game, why not others? The interpretation is rather open ended.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I get what you're saying, my only hang up is GW specifically stating "treat it as if it were the shooting phase". That part alone opens the floodgates for rules and restrictions to apply. If they didn't intend for that, why even include that part in the first place? What is the purpose of it? You can't just cherry pick which restrictions and rules to apply just because GW didn't specifically mention that scenario. If shooting phase specific rules for character targeting is fair game, why not others? The interpretation is rather open ended.

It just means the rules of the shooting phase (pick target, LOS, Range etc) apply to the unit that is shooting. It doesn't mean other models get to pretend it's the shooting phase.

Then why not just say "this unit can make a shooting attack but must subtract 1 from their hit rolls"? It's the same thing but with no ambiguity. As it is, I think there's room for interpretation.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Then why not just say "this unit can make a shooting attack but must subtract 1 from their hit rolls"? It's the same thing but with no ambiguity. As it is, I think there's room for interpretation.

Because the rule has been worded poorly.

Rules with the wording 'as if it were the X phase' have caused and continue to cause many misunderstandings.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I get what you're saying, my only hang up is GW specifically stating "treat it as if it were the shooting phase". That part alone opens the floodgates for rules and restrictions to apply. If they didn't intend for that, why even include that part in the first place? What is the purpose of it? You can't just cherry pick which restrictions and rules to apply just because GW didn't specifically mention that scenario. If shooting phase specific rules for character targeting is fair game, why not others? The interpretation is rather open ended.

Yes, since they say to treat it as a shooting phase, all modifiers that would apply from the shooting phase apply. the FAQ ruling on shooting characters establishes the precedent for this to apply, it's not just a "special snowflake" ruling.

As above

For the purposes of that strat it's the shooting phase. To say otherwise results in more issues - for my unit if it isn't the shooting phase then none of the rules fir applying wounds, defined in the shooting phase, apply.

 doctortom wrote:

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I get what you're saying, my only hang up is GW specifically stating "treat it as if it were the shooting phase". That part alone opens the floodgates for rules and restrictions to apply. If they didn't intend for that, why even include that part in the first place? What is the purpose of it? You can't just cherry pick which restrictions and rules to apply just because GW didn't specifically mention that scenario. If shooting phase specific rules for character targeting is fair game, why not others? The interpretation is rather open ended.

Yes, since they say to treat it as a shooting phase, all modifiers that would apply from the shooting phase apply. the FAQ ruling on shooting characters establishes the precedent for this to apply, it's not just a "special snowflake" ruling.

No, it ONLY applies to shooting characters, not anything else. We need a blanket Special Snowflake FAQ, not just a small specific one.

I vote you get the minus 1 from the vex banner. Your being shot at in a scenario that clearly states as if it where the shooting phase.

Both the shooting unit and the target are in fact at the moment the shooter uses auspecs scan in a shooting phase, or a phase that’s treated as.

By some logic where only the shooters are in a shooting phase and not the intended target then by that ideal the target unit can’t be hit or wounded because they are not in the opposing units shooting phase/turn.


The only time where the vexella with not Work is overwatch because that has its own specific rule.

The rules aren't democratic. Just because people want it to work against an Auspex Scan doesn't mean it does.

Lungpickle wrote:
I vote you get the minus 1 from the vex banner. Your being shot at in a scenario that clearly states as if it where the shooting phase.

Both the shooting unit and the target are in fact at the moment the shooter uses auspecs scan in a shooting phase, or a phase that’s treated as.

By some logic where only the shooters are in a shooting phase and not the intended target then by that ideal the target unit can’t be hit or wounded because they are not in the opposing units shooting phase/turn.


The only time where the vexella with not Work is overwatch because that has its own specific rule.

I agree. We have guidance that "as per shooting phase" effects apply shooting phase restrictions. It's not 100% clear but given the ambiguity this feels like the correct interpretation for use.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules aren't democratic. Just because people want it to work against an Auspex Scan doesn't mean it does.

Conversely, it's not an autocratic dictatorship with you in charge; just because you don't want it to work against an Auspex scan doesn't mean it doesn't. There is evidence from the FAQs that when you shoot in phases other than the shooting phase, shooting phase rules apply, especially when you are told to treat it as the shooting phase. If you're treating it as the shooting phase, you get to use anything that would be appropriate in the shooting phase, including stratagems.

So as I see it we have to either go with the interpretation that either:

A: The term "as per shooting phase" only relates to Pick targets, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves, exactly like the shooting phase orders, but do not use any other rules similarities unless they are specified.

B. When using stratagems, the wording must be followed exactly unless there is a special snowflake rule specifically for the model being targeted.

C. The term "as per shooting phase" means you use any rules associated with the shooting phase and any additional rules associated with the ability being used.





C is obviously the simplest interpretation, utilizing what we know from the shooting phase wholly and only adding in the bits relevant to the ability being used.

Likewise, the Tyranid FAQ confirms that you can use Opportunistic Advance (double your Advance for that Movement Phase) with Hive Commander, Overrun, and Mind Eater, all which let you "move as if it were the Movement Phase."

Whether this is a Snowflake FAQ or a precedent depends on the person asking.

If it’s “as if it were the Shooting Phase” all relevant things apply. You could play the Take Cover Stratagem, etc.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If I drop down a squad of Allarus Custodians with a Vexilus Praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica and my opponent uses Auspex Scan to try and shoot at them as they arrive from deep strike, if they normally have a BS of 3+ and with the -1 to hit from Auspex Scan would they actually only hit on 5+ because of the Vexilla Magnifica aura? Auspex Scan says to treat the shooting as if it were the Shooting phase and the Vexilla Magnifica specifically states it grants the -1 to hit during the Shooting phase, so I'm guessing any rules that apply during the Shooting phase also applies during Auspex Scan?

The Auspex Scan Stratagem states "...as if it were your Shooting phase..." So while it is the Custodes' Movement phase, the Stratagem makes the shots "as it if were your Shooting phase." So you apply all the rules/conditions as if it were indeed your Shooting phase. Therefore, the Vexilla would apply. All that to say I agree with your logic!