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Gents,

I played a game this weekend against a friend of mine who was playing Tau and something caught my eye when I was looking through his Codex. (Please note that I do not own a copy myself and am going off of memory here) In the header text of the Drone Datasheet it states something to the effect that all drones bought under different units use "this" datasheet. Can someone who has the rules clarify this wording for me and let me know if this does in fact get restricted by the Rule of 3?

The GW Facebook staff commented something to the effect of Drones bought for other units do not count for the "rule of 3" since they're bought as wargear for that unit that then acts independently.

The datasheet lists their stats instead of spelling out every drone on every datasheet.

But when you take a squad of fire warriors and add drones to that unit, you're still using the Fire Warriors datasheet to make that troops selection. The Tactical Drones fast attack option is a separate selection.

Also, this only applies if you both agree to use this rule as it's only a suggested rule for events, not a beta rule or actual FAQ.

There is the tactical drones datasheet. It's a fast choice for the army, and the rule of 3 applies to that.

There is the sniper drone datasheet, rule of three applies to that datasheet too.

Any other drone that comes as part of another unit, be it a "standard" drone (gun,shield,marker) or a special drone (Reckon, grav inhibitor, shielded missile, stealth drone etc), they are part of their respective unit's datasheets. ie the stealth drones are part of the Ghostkeel datasheet, which means it counts the rule of 3 vs other ghostkeels, not against other drones.

That's makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

The Tactical Drones don't become their own unit until after deployment, so they don't count towards the Rule of 3. Same as 3 Devestator squads that Combat Squad before the game into 6 squads are still only 3 on the army roster.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The GW Facebook staff commented something to the effect of Drones bought for other units do not count for the "rule of 3" since they're bought as wargear for that unit that then acts independently.

Anyone can provide a link to that?

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The GW Facebook staff commented something to the effect of Drones bought for other units do not count for the "rule of 3" since they're bought as wargear for that unit that then acts independently.

Anyone can provide a link to that?

What, Facebook being used for rules is a bad idea? Noooooo, that can't be!

RaW The Rule of 3 applies to Tau Drones unless the TO says otherwise. You can only take 3 units of the Datasheet "Tactical Drones". That includes drones that accompany suits, etc.

If your tournament is using the default rules, this is how it is. If you don't like it, complain to GW or to your TO.

It's not completely restricted.

Any drones bought for a Troops unit will not be restricted,

 Happyjew wrote:
It's not completely restricted.

Any drones bought for a Troops unit will not be restricted,

This is indeed true. Better grab some Drones for your Fire Warriors, eh?

I’m confused as to which stance you’re even arguing, BCB, after your total 180 above.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’m confused as to which stance you’re even arguing, BCB, after your total 180 above.

Is my post that hard to read? Let me spell it out again then. Drones are limited by the rule of 3, as they all use the same datasheet. However the rule of 3 does not apply to troops. Drones that accompany units take on the battlefield role of the unit they accompany. Thus any drones that accompany Troop units don't count towards the 3 datasheet limit. I forgot that part of the rule and corrected myself.

On a personal note, you really need to stop trying to "gotcha" me every time you post, it just makes you look petty. As I have said many times I don't mind when I am corrected or mistaken, I'll admit it, correct myself and move on. The difference between us is I need actual rules arguments to do that,not appeals to "RaI".

I don't just trust easily strange felines made out of edible materials, so I thrown a question to their FAQ e-mail. It seems unreasonable to me to project rule of 3 on units for which drones are, for example, simply not even optional. Perhaps GW will check it out.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I don't just trust easily strange felines made out of edible materials, so I thrown a question to their FAQ e-mail. It seems unreasonable to me to project rule of 3 on units for which drones are, for example, simply not even optional. Perhaps GW will check it out.

I fully expect GW to give an exception or special snowflake FAQ, but just as likely they won't and leave it to individual TO's, which would be a nightmare.

Drones accompanying other units have the battlefield role of the unit they accompany. Would this not effectively change their data sheet, unless they're with a Fast Attack unit?

So you'd have a limit of 2-4 for every category except Troops and Dedicated Transport.

Regardless, RAI is pretty clear - Drones are part of the data sheet of the unit they're bought with, you just use the rules for Tactical Drones on pg 109 to avoid unnecessary rules repetition.

 John Prins wrote:
Drones accompanying other units have the battlefield role of the unit they accompany. Would this not effectively change their data sheet, unless they're with a Fast Attack unit?

So you'd have a limit of 2-4 for every category except Troops and Dedicated Transport.

Regardless, RAI is pretty clear - Drones are part of the data sheet of the unit they're bought with, you just use the rules for Tactical Drones on pg 109 to avoid unnecessary rules repetition.

It would not change the datasheet. The Datasheet itself is Fast Attack, but if the Battlefield Role changes to Troops they don't count towards the three limit.

See, for example, Khorne Berserkers. They are Troops if they are World Eaters, so you could include an unlimited number of World Eater Khorne Berserkers unit, and 3 non-World Eaters units.

Drones taken on their own as a Fast selection are the only Drones that are limited by the Rule of 3. Drones taken as part of HQs, Elites, Troops, Fast, and Heavy do not count towards the Rule of 3, just like Dedicated Transports don’t.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Drones taken on their own as a Fast selection are the only Drones that are limited by the Rule of 3. Drones taken as part of HQs, Elites, Troops, Fast, and Heavy do not count towards the Rule of 3, just like Dedicated Transports don’t.

SJ

[Citation Needed]

Where does it say this? Just because something doesn't use a slot on the FoC doesn't make it immune to the Rule of 3.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Drones taken on their own as a Fast selection are the only Drones that are limited by the Rule of 3. Drones taken as part of HQs, Elites, Troops, Fast, and Heavy do not count towards the Rule of 3, just like Dedicated Transports don’t.

SJ

[Citation Needed]

Where does it say this? Just because something doesn't use a slot on the FoC doesn't make it immune to the Rule of 3.

Per the recent FAQ that includes the Rule of 3, the recommendation limits the number of times the same Datasheet can appear in an army list. The only Drone datasheet is the Fast Attack selection. My unit of Crisis Suits has a datasheet that includes Drones, those Drones are not from the same datasheet as the Drones I purchased as Fast Attack. As such, the Drones purchased from the Crisis datasheet are limited only by the number of Crisis units I field, not Fast Attack Drones I field.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Drones taken on their own as a Fast selection are the only Drones that are limited by the Rule of 3. Drones taken as part of HQs, Elites, Troops, Fast, and Heavy do not count towards the Rule of 3, just like Dedicated Transports don’t.

SJ

[Citation Needed]

Where does it say this? Just because something doesn't use a slot on the FoC doesn't make it immune to the Rule of 3.

Per the recent FAQ that includes the Rule of 3, the recommendation limits the number of times the same Datasheet can appear in an army list. The only Drone datasheet is the Fast Attack selection. My unit of Crisis Suits has a datasheet that includes Drones, those Drones are not from the same datasheet as the Drones I purchased as Fast Attack. As such, the Drones purchased from the Crisis datasheet are limited only by the number of Crisis units I field, not Fast Attack Drones I field.

SJ

So then your drones have no stats. Where else would you get the stats from?

Special Drones (i.e. non-MV1 Gun Drones, non-MV4 Shield Drones, non-MV7 Marker Drones) are limited by the rule of 3 as much as their parent unit, due to them sharing the same datasheet. The regular drones (i.e. MV1 Gun Drones, MV4 Shield Drones, MV7 Marker Drones) are limited by the rule of 3, because "Tactical Drones accompanying units use their own datasheet (pg 109), while profiles, wargear, abilities and keywords for other types of accompanying Drones can be found on their parent unit’s datasheet."

Tactical Drones that accompany Troops units do not count towards the rule of 3 because they are Troops.

What version of the T'au codex do you have that has Tactical Drones listed on the datasheet for Crisis Suits, because mine doesn't. All I see is Crisis Shas'ui and Crisis Shas'vre.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It would not change the datasheet.

pg 109 Drone Support:

"Tactical Drones often accompany other T'au Empire units. In such instances, a unit's data sheet will instruct you if, and how many, Tactical Drones may accompany it. Tactical Drones included in your army in this way have the Battlefield Role of the unit they accompany."

Where is Battlefield Role found? On data sheets. The rule changes the Battlefield Role, which means it is literally changing the data sheet.

 John Prins wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It would not change the datasheet.

pg 109 Drone Support:

"Tactical Drones often accompany other T'au Empire units. In such instances, a unit's data sheet will instruct you if, and how many, Tactical Drones may accompany it. Tactical Drones included in your army in this way have the Battlefield Role of the unit they accompany."

Where is Battlefield Role found? On data sheets. The rule changes the Battlefield Role, which means it is literally changing the data sheet.

No, the datasheet is the same, it just changes the battlefield role. The Datasheet still says Fast Attack, they just aren't treated as Fast Attack any more, same as World Eater Khorne Berserkers.

Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

You ask people not to call you unreasonable, then misrepresent a position in a confrontational post. Cmaaaaan buddy, don’t ‘amplify the shrieking’ (whose term was that again?).

The reasonable, common sense approach mentioned is that it’s blatantly not GW’s intent to entirely invalidate the way T’au armies are built. Drones bought with a unit don’t count as a separate choice, in exactly the same way as you describe Devastator units that Combat Squad don’t count as two uses of the same Datasheet. I’d expect further clarification from GW in due time. Until then, it’s a suggested limit for tournaments so unless at a tournament players don’t have to use it. And at a tournament worth it’s salt there should be clarification on the TO’s stance on this ahead of time. So the only place there should be any uncertainty is in an online subforum debating rules in the abstract... essentially, despite all the noise it’s an internet-only problem unless you’re incapable of having a friendly discussion with your opponent pre-game about whether to adopt this and how to handle it. Some random internet guy repeating “no all Drones count toward it!” holds little to no water.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

You ask people not to call you unreasonable, then misrepresent a position in a confrontational post. Cmaaaaan buddy, don’t ‘amplify the shrieking’ (whose term was that again?).

The reasonable, common sense approach mentioned is that it’s blatantly not GW’s intent to entirely invalidate the way T’au armies are built. Drones bought with a unit don’t count as a separate choice, in exactly the same way as you describe Devastator units that Combat Squad don’t count as two uses of the same Datasheet. I’d expect further clarification from GW in due time. Until then, it’s a suggested limit for tournaments so unless at a tournament players don’t have to use it. And at a tournament worth it’s salt there should be clarification on the TO’s stance on this ahead of time. So the only place there should be any uncertainty is in an online subforum debating rules in the abstract... essentially, despite all the noise it’s an internet-only problem unless you’re incapable of having a friendly discussion with your opponent pre-game about whether to adopt this and how to handle it. Some random internet guy repeating “no all Drones count toward it!” holds little to no water.

The Beta rule totally invalidates how Grey Knight armies are built, why would Tau be any different.

You also like to claim I am some "random internet guy", but I am not the one who says what the rules are, the rules do, and the rules are crystal clear. Just because you dislike them doesn't change them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

All rules require interpretation because they're not algorithms.

Detachments have Battlefield Role Slots. Data sheets have Battlefield Roles. The question is whether or not Accompanying Drones (Codex Tau pg88) are 'included' on a Battlefield Role Slot. That's what the beta rule is limiting, what data sheets are 'included' in Battlefield Role Slots.

"Tactical Drones accompanying units use their own data sheet"

This doesn't say 'include', the terminology used in Battlefield Role Slots (Rulebook pg 242), and the Organized Events rule in the beta rules (the so-called 'Rule of 3', which is only 3 for 1001-2000 points).

So accompanying drones have nothing that says they are 'included' and assigned a Battlefield Role Slot - they occupy the Battlefield Role Slot of the parent unit with the parent unit. Given they are bought with the parent unit, this seems obvious. They ARE assigned a Battlefield Role, but that's not the same thing as a Battlefield Role Slot in a Detachment.

They just use the rules found in the Tactical Drones data sheet. They are assigned a Battlefield Role, but not a slot. Units without slots aren't uncommon - reinforcements, for example.

Note that this wasn't created by the beta rules - if accompanying drones did occupy a BR Slot, any unit with drones would occupy 2 slots and fill up detachments super fast. It hasn't been brought up because nobody is assuming they take up BR Slots.

Just because something doesn't use a FOC slot doesn't make it exempt from the rule of 3, unless GW change said rule to say that. I guess we'll agree to disagree and I'll continue playing the game by the rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

You ask people not to call you unreasonable, then misrepresent a position in a confrontational post. Cmaaaaan buddy, don’t ‘amplify the shrieking’ (whose term was that again?).

The reasonable, common sense approach mentioned is that it’s blatantly not GW’s intent to entirely invalidate the way T’au armies are built. Drones bought with a unit don’t count as a separate choice, in exactly the same way as you describe Devastator units that Combat Squad don’t count as two uses of the same Datasheet. I’d expect further clarification from GW in due time. Until then, it’s a suggested limit for tournaments so unless at a tournament players don’t have to use it. And at a tournament worth it’s salt there should be clarification on the TO’s stance on this ahead of time. So the only place there should be any uncertainty is in an online subforum debating rules in the abstract... essentially, despite all the noise it’s an internet-only problem unless you’re incapable of having a friendly discussion with your opponent pre-game about whether to adopt this and how to handle it. Some random internet guy repeating “no all Drones count toward it!” holds little to no water.

The Beta rule totally invalidates how Grey Knight armies are built, why would Tau be any different.

You also like to claim I am some "random internet guy", but I am not the one who says what the rules are, the rules do, and the rules are crystal clear. Just because you dislike them doesn't change them.

The only beta rule that impacts Grey Knights is the Alpha Strike restriction. It’s the 8th ed GK codex that invalidates GK.

SJ

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Remember when this game was supposed to be FUN?

I would suggest a healthy dollop of common sense, followed by a splattering of reasonable behaviour when considering rules such as these with your opponent.

I agree. It's common sense that the Rule of 3 applies to drones. If you disagree clearly you don't have common sense. Is that seriously your argument?

You ask people not to call you unreasonable, then misrepresent a position in a confrontational post. Cmaaaaan buddy, don’t ‘amplify the shrieking’ (whose term was that again?).

The reasonable, common sense approach mentioned is that it’s blatantly not GW’s intent to entirely invalidate the way T’au armies are built. Drones bought with a unit don’t count as a separate choice, in exactly the same way as you describe Devastator units that Combat Squad don’t count as two uses of the same Datasheet. I’d expect further clarification from GW in due time. Until then, it’s a suggested limit for tournaments so unless at a tournament players don’t have to use it. And at a tournament worth it’s salt there should be clarification on the TO’s stance on this ahead of time. So the only place there should be any uncertainty is in an online subforum debating rules in the abstract... essentially, despite all the noise it’s an internet-only problem unless you’re incapable of having a friendly discussion with your opponent pre-game about whether to adopt this and how to handle it. Some random internet guy repeating “no all Drones count toward it!” holds little to no water.

The Beta rule totally invalidates how Grey Knight armies are built, why would Tau be any different.

You also like to claim I am some "random internet guy", but I am not the one who says what the rules are, the rules do, and the rules are crystal clear. Just because you dislike them doesn't change them.

Actually, feeding back to GW could change them. It’s a beta rule. Beta rules have wrinkles they are trying to iron out, and lots of random internet people can affect them before final publication!