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“We are loyal to the Warmaster”
“Surely you mean you are loyal to the Emperor”
“You are splitting hairs...”

I’m getting through the first few books of the Horus Heresy and man there is nothing like hearing this statement thrown around. It just resonates so well. Especially how each side essentially feel that initially they are doing the right thing for the Imperium or that they are on the same side. Feels like this might have a real world basis to it too.

Hope you enjoy the books. And yeah most wars don't have one side willfully deciding to be evil by their own standards. Certainly not in civil wars and revolutions. They all think they're doing what's best and they don't notice themselves becoming the bad guy when they go right down the road to evil. Though I've gotta say the early engagements of the Heresy were still pretty brutal and sinister. When you do the things Horus did off the bat it's hard to justify unless you use the greater good line of thought and even then it's pretty tenuous. A lot of Primarchs joined up with him out of spite and for vengeance after all. But as you say some certainly thought that this is what would be the best for the Imperium when they built it anew.

Histories are written by the winners...

So Chaos write all the bad stuff about themselves?

"I am loyal to the Imperium of man..."
"But?"
"My vision of it."

"You're not the boss of me"
"I am your father and as long as you live in this house you will do as I say young genetically upgraded uberman."

That is totally in the series in that one book that most people missed out.

"I am sorry son, I know i should never have left you in the care of those Chaos Gods but they had good references!"

“I’m dedicated to Horus”
“You mean the Emperor, right?”
“Same diff.”
“Gotcha... wait that’s not an answer. Are they the same or different? They can’t be the same difference...”
“Caught me”
*laughter*
*start of an endless civil war*
*more laughter*

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
“We are loyal to the Warmaster”
“Surely you mean you are loyal to the Emperor”
“You are splitting hairs...”

I’m getting through the first few books of the Horus Heresy and man there is nothing like hearing this statement thrown around. It just resonates so well. Especially how each side essentially feel that initially they are doing the right thing for the Imperium or that they are on the same side. Feels like this might have a real world basis to it too.

Ironically in a later book you hear a very reminiscent conversation between two loyalists; Constantin Valdor, who's loyal to the Emperor, and Rogal Dorn, who's loyal to Humanity; Valdor is quite irate at the suggestion that the latter is not quite the same as the former.

"Boy, Istvaan 5 looks great! You coming?"

"Nah... think I'll hang back."

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Hope you enjoy the books. And yeah most wars don't have one side willfully deciding to be evil by their own standards. Certainly not in civil wars and revolutions. They all think they're doing what's best and they don't notice themselves becoming the bad guy when they go right down the road to evil. Though I've gotta say the early engagements of the Heresy were still pretty brutal and sinister. When you do the things Horus did off the bat it's hard to justify unless you use the greater good line of thought and even then it's pretty tenuous. A lot of Primarchs joined up with him out of spite and for vengeance after all. But as you say some certainly thought that this is what would be the best for the Imperium when they built it anew.

Committing atrocities was already par for the course for space marines long before the Heresy. The only difference was that it was no longer done on the Emperor's orders.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Hope you enjoy the books. And yeah most wars don't have one side willfully deciding to be evil by their own standards. Certainly not in civil wars and revolutions. They all think they're doing what's best and they don't notice themselves becoming the bad guy when they go right down the road to evil. Though I've gotta say the early engagements of the Heresy were still pretty brutal and sinister. When you do the things Horus did off the bat it's hard to justify unless you use the greater good line of thought and even then it's pretty tenuous. A lot of Primarchs joined up with him out of spite and for vengeance after all. But as you say some certainly thought that this is what would be the best for the Imperium when they built it anew.

Committing atrocities was already par for the course for space marines long before the Heresy. The only difference was that it was no longer done on the Emperor's orders.

True, it was something every legion did. But to do it against their own people was something few had imagined before. Astartes vs Astartes was an impossible thought to some. And the destruction unleashed at Istvaan V was said to be so great it drove the human auxiliaries mad and even the Marines began to crack. This wasn't just any old war for most of those involved.

"Wolf at the door " is a great short story and drives home how "evil"/authoritarian the imperium already is during the great crusade.

 Earth127 wrote:
"Wolf at the door " is a great short story and drives home how "evil"/authoritarian the imperium already is during the great crusade.

Yeah, Descent of Angels also shows the more sinister side of the pre heresy Imperium a few times. Even though it's a bit less Grimdark than 40k in some ways, 30k is still the same universe and no one is a true good guy.

locarno24 wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
“We are loyal to the Warmaster”
“Surely you mean you are loyal to the Emperor”
“You are splitting hairs...”

I’m getting through the first few books of the Horus Heresy and man there is nothing like hearing this statement thrown around. It just resonates so well. Especially how each side essentially feel that initially they are doing the right thing for the Imperium or that they are on the same side. Feels like this might have a real world basis to it too.

Ironically in a later book you hear a very reminiscent conversation between two loyalists; Constantin Valdor, who's loyal to the Emperor, and Rogal Dorn, who's loyal to Humanity; Valdor is quite irate at the suggestion that the latter is not quite the same as the former.

Which book is that? Sounds good to have someone realise Big E isn't perfect.

The Horus Heresy is a amazing set of books, the first 4 do such a good job of setting the scene, there's some golden books in there post the first 4 like Betrayer, First Heretic, Fulgrim, Prospero Burns, The Crimson king... this list is very long.

pm713 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
“We are loyal to the Warmaster”
“Surely you mean you are loyal to the Emperor”
“You are splitting hairs...”

I’m getting through the first few books of the Horus Heresy and man there is nothing like hearing this statement thrown around. It just resonates so well. Especially how each side essentially feel that initially they are doing the right thing for the Imperium or that they are on the same side. Feels like this might have a real world basis to it too.

Ironically in a later book you hear a very reminiscent conversation between two loyalists; Constantin Valdor, who's loyal to the Emperor, and Rogal Dorn, who's loyal to Humanity; Valdor is quite irate at the suggestion that the latter is not quite the same as the former.

Which book is that? Sounds good to have someone realise Big E isn't perfect.

Nemesis, and to a lesser extent Outcast Dead.

~ Valdor says to Dorn that they all want the same thing; to preserve the Emperor. Dorn however claims that Valdor's role is to safeguard the life of the Emperor, whilst Dorn himself, and all the Astartes role is to safeguard the Imperium.
~ Dorn says that to preserve the Imperium they must have a moral code, Valdor says that to match Horus they must not balk at underhanded tactics.


Also Magisterium (a short story following Outcast Dead)

Dorn smiled, cynically and without warmth. ‘You see, there’s your old problem. You never see any fault in Him. You never push back. You never stop, think, say to yourself – is that sensible?’ He pressed his great, calloused hands together. ‘And now you have this conundrum, the greatest of your existence. You were created to be the embodiment of His will, but we can no longer discover what that is. You are His Voice, but He is silent. Can you think for yourself now, captain-general? That is what’s required.’

I like the Magisterium quote. Seems to sum up the problem behind the Imperium pretty well. Nobody said is that sensible?

"I must not fail again."

"UMADBRO?"

Actually for the best facetious line for this thread, go back to the 40k background page and just read the thread title and OP user name in quick succession

Makes total sense!

Back to the OP anyway - it really wasn't two words that started the heresy.

It was Horus, being dropped by the Anathamea (The murder blade) on davin, which was all planned by Erebus, which was all because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod....

Because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod,

locarno24 wrote:
Because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod, because Lorgar took him into the eye of terror, because Lorgar was corrupted by Erebus, because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod,

Congratulations, you have just won the internet.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Back to the OP anyway - it really wasn't two words that started the heresy.

It was Horus, being dropped by the Anathamea (The murder blade) on davin, which was all planned by Erebus, which was all because Lorgar landed on Colchis, which was all because that's where the pantheon wanted him to land, which was all because argel tal broke the gellar field on the stasis pod....

Those simple words did convince so many people to join the cause. Legions, Mechanicum, Legios, Knight Houses, Imperial Navy, and Imperial Guard all began saying “I follow the Warmaster” instead of I follow the Emperor.

It’s very insidious, but so subtle.

"I am not a God"... Lorgar was stumped and wanted to put that statement to the test.

With the Emperor struck down, in a continuous state of unlife, Lorgar has sat ruminating in solitude as to whether this is evidence for the Emperor's godly immortality, or human mortality.

Perhaps when he comes to a conclusion he will return to the Emperor's light...