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I'm trying to put together some stuff to play NetEpic Gold, a fanmade re-write of Epic 40k, and it involves lots of proxying. To cut a long story short, I came to the conclusion that it would not be insensible to just call some of my IG proxies "locally-produced variants" of normal IG vehicles, much like how the DKoK invented Ragnarok tanks when they needed lots of vehicles fast in the middle of a 500-year siege, or how the Macharius was created as a cheaper 2nd edition Baneblade to fill a force gap.

So my question is: How far are the Guard allowed to go with making custom vehicles when they can't get proper resupplies or have unusual fighting conditions, how often does it not result in genocide against the tech-heretics, and what does a new pattern of vehicle have to do to get recognised as an official variant?

With a sub question: Is this now a stupid question as the 40k lore is moving forward and I haven't been keeping track of it since 8E dropped?

I don't think the regiments themselves will produce custom tanks. But the attached Tech Priests may well make some adjustments But a lot of the different looking variants come from the Forge World supplying the regiment making an alternate pattern to the more common type you would see on the table. So with that being the case then it's perfectly reasonable that the Forge World supplying the regiment has some obscure tanks. Regiments have a certain amount of leeway to decorate their vehicles and modify them a bit. But building an entire new pattern would probably be difficult for resources and with the tech heresy. To be recognised it would likely have to be an STC that has been studied and produced by the machine cult. My personal advice is to have the vehicle be an STC pattern produced on a Forge World near to the regiments homeworld.

Yes and no.

You have varients like enclosed armageddon pattern artillery.

Catchan maybe issues more amphibious upgraded chimera units.

A desert world or campaign might fot wider tracks for soft sand. Minor modifications that's not innovation or tech heresey.

A toxic world or say polluted may have upgraded filters and so. A urban war might mean there tanks for more defense weapons.

This variety is normal.
It's not like making your own designs.

It's not a case of "we invented a new tank" so much as "take STC bit X, bit Y and bit Z and bolt them together" - STC stuff is incredibly interoperable - hence predator and land raider variant plenty are created by taking existing chassis and fitting new weapon mounts.

The Ragnarok is probably an earthmover chassis, a powered static defence turret, and a few other low tech STC bits stitched together.

locarno24 wrote:
It's not a case of "we invented a new tank" so much as "take STC bit X, bit Y and bit Z and bolt them together" - STC stuff is incredibly interoperable - hence predator and land raider variant plenty are created by taking existing chassis and fitting new weapon mounts.

The Ragnarok is probably an earthmover chassis, a powered static defence turret, and a few other low tech STC bits stitched together.

Leman Russ is a modified tractor or somthing. It can be fitted out with dozens of weapons or modification parts. Imperials are seeming masters at bodging and conversions.

Thanks for the replies so far

The item I'm working with atm is going to get used regardless of lore (for practicality reasons), but I'm thinking of fluffing it as being pretty much "old Leman Russ parts inefficiently bolted together so that we have some more tanks while we wait for a resupply". That and being given a cheaper engine for ease of reproduction, losing some armour plating to reduce weight, and extending the track a little to be better at climbing over trenches, holes, and small mountains of detritus.

I think the line between "necessary battlefield adaptation" and "tech-heresy" is rather like the line between Catholic church doctrine and heresy. Less based on logic than on the quirks and political situations of the time and place it was codified, rationalized however it needed to be.

There are a lot of different battle tank patterns in the Imperium; the Leman Russ is just the most prevalent of them. See the AT-70 Reaver, built by an Imperial forge world before its fall to Chaos. As long as they're basically the same capabilities and have logistical interoperability, they'll see battlefield use by regiments that have access to them.

Great looking minis, btw!

The tanks in the above picture actually look a lot like the original.epic scale Russ model. Was that deliberate?

Formerly Wu wrote:I think the line between "necessary battlefield adaptation" and "tech-heresy" is rather like the line between Catholic church doctrine and heresy. Less based on logic than on the quirks and political situations of the time and place it was codified, rationalized however it needed to be.

There are a lot of different battle tank patterns in the Imperium; the Leman Russ is just the most prevalent of them. See the AT-70 Reaver, built by an Imperial forge world before its fall to Chaos. As long as they're basically the same capabilities and have logistical interoperability, they'll see battlefield use by regiments that have access to them.

Great looking minis, btw!

Thanks!
Given that variant, it wouldn't be too much a stretch to say that a local Mechanicus mission gave a hand mediating between "knock-off LRBT" designs they were familiar with and the local situation to provide a workable tank pool.

Flinty wrote:The tanks in the above picture actually look a lot like the original.epic scale Russ model. Was that deliberate?

Probably. These are "Novan Churchillian Tanks" by from Troublemaker Games' Defeat in Detail line:
http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/product-category/defeat-in-detail-6mm/tusculum-nova/novan-regulars-vehicles-and-aircraft/

They also have designs that look waay more like Russes (Centurion MBT) but those are a few years more recent than my purchases.

Old 6mm Russ tanks:

Yeah the fluff says there's plentiful pattern differences of ubiquitous vehicles out there. In addition innumerous locally produced vehicles exist in the 40k world's often being deployed in PDFs. For one example the Urdeshi tanks that the Blood Pact used heavily after they conquered the forgeworld. So yeah... You're kosher to use whatever models you want really.

Nice painting btw

Jimmy Zimms wrote:Yeah the fluff says there's plentiful pattern differences of ubiquitous vehicles out there. In addition innumerous locally produced vehicles exist in the 40k world's often being deployed in PDFs. For one example the Urdeshi tanks that the Blood Pact used heavily after they conquered the forgeworld. So yeah... You're kosher to use whatever models you want really.

Nice painting btw

Formerly Wu wrote:I think the line between "necessary battlefield adaptation" and "tech-heresy" is rather like the line between Catholic church doctrine and heresy. Less based on logic than on the quirks and political situations of the time and place it was codified, rationalized however it needed to be.

There are a lot of different battle tank patterns in the Imperium; the Leman Russ is just the most prevalent of them. See the AT-70 Reaver, built by an Imperial forge world before its fall to Chaos. As long as they're basically the same capabilities and have logistical interoperability, they'll see battlefield use by regiments that have access to them.

Great looking minis, btw!

Yeah, this is the measure of it as I understand it- the Leman Russ is the best all-round tank design available to the Imperial Guard, but many other broad analogues exist in the Imperium and are used when Leman Russes are not available. Some of these are probably heretical and the Mechanicus has simply not cottoned on yet/is turning a blind eye for some reason, but most will just be local STC variants that are probably inferior to the Leman Russ in some way, and maybe easier to produce in the locale.

If nothing else, being the most common makes the Leman Russ logistically superior by virtue of parts supply and ease of training/moving personnel around. Therefore other designs could be equally good, but not worth the investment of replacing Leman Russ supply trains except in the local forge world which discovered them.

 Selym wrote:
I'm trying to put together some stuff to play NetEpic Gold, a fanmade re-write of Epic 40k, and it involves lots of proxying. To cut a long story short, I came to the conclusion that it would not be insensible to just call some of my IG proxies "locally-produced variants" of normal IG vehicles, much like how the DKoK invented Ragnarok tanks when they needed lots of vehicles fast in the middle of a 500-year siege, or how the Macharius was created as a cheaper 2nd edition Baneblade to fill a force gap.

So my question is: How far are the Guard allowed to go with making custom vehicles when they can't get proper resupplies or have unusual fighting conditions, how often does it not result in genocide against the tech-heretics, and what does a new pattern of vehicle have to do to get recognised as an official variant?

With a sub question: Is this now a stupid question as the 40k lore is moving forward and I haven't been keeping track of it since 8E dropped?

Some of the Baneblade/Shadowsword variants started out as field refits that were later sanctioned and put into production. Same deal with the Thunderer Siege Tank (Destroyer Tank Hunter variant).


The traitorus Severan Dominate used locally produced light tanks, walking gun platforms, and attack aircraft. You and others have mentioned the native built Krieg vehicles and those used by the Blood Pact.


The Imperium of Man has countless Industrial Worlds, and Hive Worlds with their own industry. Forge Worlds are not the only game in town. So, go hog wild.

I'd say that industrial worlds along with hive worlds take up the absolute majority of industrial manufacturing power compared to forge worlds alone.

You can take it as an out-of-desperation modifying. Perhaps the planet is swampy and regular Russes frequently drowned, so local authorities had to develop a lighter vehicle that is able to cross the swamps easier. You know, wider tracks, less armor, perhaps amphibious...

Or a repurposed snow-cat on ice worlds...

I was thinking more along the lines of disconnection from Imperial supply lines combined with constantly-attacked local production, resulting in shortages of spare parts, combined with awkward local conditions.
An example hard-to-get part would be whatever gizmo allows a LRBT engine to turn any fuel source into energy (Petroleum products, wood, misc recyclables, etc), ball-bearings for turret rotation - as opposed to mechanical rotation, cogitator copmponents used in LRBT systems, and so on.

Any local shortages of AdMech personnel would also likely result in the need for Guardsman-compatible repairs, so a simplified design would be handier in some combat areas.

 Hawky wrote:
I'd say that industrial worlds along with hive worlds take up the absolute majority of industrial manufacturing power compared to forge worlds alone.

You can take it as an out-of-desperation modifying. Perhaps the planet is swampy and regular Russes frequently drowned, so local authorities had to develop a lighter vehicle that is able to cross the swamps easier. You know, wider tracks, less armor, perhaps amphibious...

Or a repurposed snow-cat on ice worlds...

Yeah. They may not quite innovate but there not beyond modifications to operate on wide range of worlds.

They are going to adapt and modify as needed to work on a planet. On a icey planet you may weld spikes to your tracks for extra grip etx.

Wide tracks on boggy of sandy worlds. All within reason.

And yes. Above is true about modified bane blades etx.
A broken shadowsword fitted with a big cannon works and gets used. It's all STC bits. There be many than not put into productions too like maybe bodging a hell hound turret to replace a demolished cannon if no other chouce and desperate closer in combat.

Spawning off from this discussion, I have a name and basic fluff written up:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756147.page

Meet the LR-35 (Named after the LRBT and the Russian T-35 multi-turreted tank)!