Switch Theme:

Wipe = autoloss?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in be
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores




I was wondering. If you wipe your opponent let's say turn 5. But he is ahead on victory points. Do you autowin or do you still have to play your remaining turns to see if you can catch up on victory points? If yes, where is this stated in the rulebook or faq?
Thanks guys
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






Pg. 215

If at the end of any turn after the first battle round,
one player has no models on the battlefield, the
game ends immediately and their opponent
automatically wins a crushing victory. Do not include
any Fortifications when determining if a player has
any units on the battlefield unless they have a unit
embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion
requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 p5freak wrote:
In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


" the
game ends immediately and their opponent
automatically wins a crushing victory."

Is crushing victory a win?

Why you think 8th edition is game of tabling rather than game of objectives? And why many tournamnets specifically house rule this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/26 07:12:52


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

tneva82 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


" the
game ends immediately and their opponent
automatically wins a crushing victory."

Is crushing victory a win?

Why you think 8th edition is game of tabling rather than game of objectives? And why many tournamnets specifically house rule this.


It’s not debatable that victory means “you win”. Crushing is just adding flavour to that. You win regardless of VPs if you table your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


At the end of any battle round after the first if you have no models on the board you lose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/26 08:49:33


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 p5freak wrote:

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


Yes, because the tabling check is at the end of the turn, and the end of the battle round is later than that, and only then you compare victory points. Since you immediately win at the end of the turn, you never go to the point scoring. You won't even get to know if there would be a Turn 6 or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


At the end of any battle round after the first if you have no models on the board you lose.

At the end of any turn. You could be tabled in the middle of Round 2, at the end of the starting players turn.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/26 10:31:31


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

nekooni wrote:
 p5freak wrote:

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


Yes, because the tabling check is at the end of the turn, and the end of the battle round is later than that, and only then you compare victory points. Since you immediately win at the end of the turn, you never go to the point scoring. You won't even get to know if there would be a Turn 6 or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
In addition units with the flyer battlefield role dont count as models on the battlefield.

What happens if the game ends normally after round 5, my opponent has more points, but i table him in my last turn (he had first turn) in the 5th round ? Do i still win, regardless of my opponent having more points ?


At the end of any battle round after the first if you have no models on the board you lose.

At the end of any turn. You could be tabled in the middle of Round 2, at the end of the starting players turn.


Thanks for the correction, so it is!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

So what happens if both players have no models?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






U02dah4 wrote:
So what happens if both players have no models?
Technically the game doesn't end and it continues on, though nothing will happen and you'll end up ending on Battle Round 5/6/7 and working out who won as per the mission rules.

The rules say "If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately", but if any other number of players, including 0, the game doesn't end.

It's not a trivial thing though, since there are plenty of ways to end up with no models at the end of the turn, Lashwhips for example.

So for example, It's Battle Round 5, Player A's turn, if Player A has a Guardsman and Player B has a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip and Bonesword on 1 W, the guardsman kills the Tyrant Guard, then the Tyrant Guard kills the guardsman (as per the Lashwhip rules it stays around to do so), now zero players have models on the battlefield, which isn't "one player", thus the game continues to player B's turn in Battle Round 5, he goes though his phases, then rolls to see if the game continues. If it does, then player A gets a turn, etc.

This can matter for Maelstrom games because some cards (like Area Denial) don't require you to have models on the field. So you continue on until the game ends, then determine the victor as per the mission rules.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 16:47:04


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
So what happens if both players have no models?
Technically the game doesn't end and it continues on, though nothing will happen and you'll end up ending on Battle Round 5/6/7 and working out who won as per the mission rules.

The rules say "If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately", but if any other number of players, including 0, the game doesn't end.

It's not a trivial thing though, since there are plenty of ways to end up with no models at the end of the turn, Lashwhips for example.

So for example, It's Battle Round 5, Player A's turn, if Player A has a Guardsman and Player B has a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip and Bonesword on 1 W, the guardsman kills the Tyrant Guard, then the Tyrant Guard kills the guardsman (as per the Lashwhip rules it stays around to do so), now zero players have models on the battlefield, which isn't "one player", thus the game continues to player B's turn in Battle Round 5, he goes though his phases, then rolls to see if the game continues. If it does, then player A gets a turn, etc.

This can matter for Maelstrom games because some cards (like Area Denial) don't require you to have models on the field. So you continue on until the game ends, then determine the victor as per the mission rules.


It doesn't say: "if only one player has no models on the battlefield." So long as there is one player with no models on the battlefield, the game ends, if there are two, there is also one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 17:40:40


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Kcalehc wrote:
It doesn't say: "if only one player has no models on the battlefield." So long as there is one player with no models on the battlefield, the game ends, if there are two, there is also one.
The rule doesn't say "at least" one player either.

Imagine this, if out of two people, if one is wearing a red shirt, give $100 to the other player.

What happens if zero people are wearing red? Neither gets the $100.

I concede it has valid interpretations either way, but I think that by just saying "one" it defaults to "only one". From a "fairness" standpoint too, if two players wipe each other at the same time, isn't it fair to go by the mission's rules to decide who wins? Since the game breaks if you don't since you'd have to give both players a "crushing victory", which is a nonsensical state.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Imagine this, if out of two people, if one is wearing a red shirt, give $100 to the other player.

What happens if zero people are wearing red? Neither gets the $100.


Exactly, so neither gets the 'crushing victory' and VPs are the only method left to determine victory.

Though I think we can agree that the game should not continue with no models on the field!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





As you say, no crushing victory to both peopleIt boils down to the victory points or whatever the mission special victory rules are.

With no models on the field I'd daresay that both players would agree to end the game at that point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 18:33:58


 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Kcalehc wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

Imagine this, if out of two people, if one is wearing a red shirt, give $100 to the other player.

What happens if zero people are wearing red? Neither gets the $100.


Exactly, so neither gets the 'crushing victory' and VPs are the only method left to determine victory.

Though I think we can agree that the game should not continue with no models on the field!


The game should continue... it's just going to be super quick as nothing much will happen. Per an earlier comment, if you're playing Maelstrom, drawing cards on subsequent turns might result in some additional score-able objectives. A handful can be scored without models on the table.

I will concede that in all other formats, there doesn't seem to be much point in going through the motions. "I have nothing left to do." "Me neither. Let's fast forward to scoring."

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Although thinking about it if you go to extra turns it might not be quick what if both players still have reserves to arrive?
   
Made in hr
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Units from reinforcements must arrive in turn 3 (matched play) or they are destroyed.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

I've actually had this happen, the game came down to Abaddon fighting a squad of Genestealers.

Abaddon was down to his last wound, my opponent used some Acid Blood stratagem on the Genestealers to make them wound me on a 6. At the end of the turn, neither of us had any models left on the table.

We just called it a draw. Do the rules actually say that Victory Points become the method of determining the win in the event of both players being tabled? Considering they don't count when a single player is tabled, it could be argued that no one wins.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Yeah it’s fairly self-evident it’s a draw. Hard to claim a battlefield if everyone is dead!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in hr
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

The player with more VP wins, unless he gets tabled. Thats usually the way the game is played. If both are tabled the player with most VP still wins.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

What if the tabled player has more VPs, and the player left on the table has no way to beat that before the final turn?
Do tactical victories not exist?

6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Skinnereal wrote:
What if the tabled player has more VPs, and the player left on the table has no way to beat that before the final turn?
Do tactical victories not exist?


Not in the current rule set. But some tournaments will let the remaining player "play it out" on his own.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah it’s fairly self-evident it’s a draw. Hard to claim a battlefield if everyone is dead!

What rules are you basing that on?

The options (supported by the rules are):
Both players get a crushing victory. Not sure how that's supposed to work.
Game continues and the mission's victory conditions apply.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Scott-S6 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah it’s fairly self-evident it’s a draw. Hard to claim a battlefield if everyone is dead!

What rules are you basing that on?

The options (supported by the rules are):
Both players get a crushing victory. Not sure how that's supposed to work.
Game continues and the mission's victory conditions apply.


I didn’t give a RAW hot take, to be fair. If no one has any models left then make a call.

If this isn’t about all models dead on both sides apply the rules of the mission, sure.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah it’s fairly self-evident it’s a draw. Hard to claim a battlefield if everyone is dead!

What rules are you basing that on?

The options (supported by the rules are):
Both players get a crushing victory. Not sure how that's supposed to work.
Game continues and the mission's victory conditions apply.


I didn’t give a RAW hot take, to be fair. If no one has any models left then make a call.

If this isn’t about all models dead on both sides apply the rules of the mission, sure.

So when you say "self-evident" you're actually referring to your home-brew HYWPI?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Scott-S6 has it right, there is no rules basis for JohnnyHells assertion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 11:58:37


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

There’s no rules basis for tonnes of your posts dude but you still stamp them “RAW Jussayin.

Whatever you wanna do guys. If there’s a situation the rules don’t handle use precedent, agree something with your opponent or do what makes sense to both of you.

It makes total sense to me that if neither side can win, and you die simultaneously, that in a sense of other victory conditions you call it a draw.

If the rules don’t cover it, of course I’m talking HIWPI... that’s also self-evident, right?

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






But he does stamp it RAW to make clear that is what he's talking about.

You post opinions with zero rules basis and do not stamp it HYWPI and then proceed to argue that against the RAW (which is a violation of the tenets).

If the rules are being discussed and you describe an interpretation as self evident people are going to assume you are talking about the rules, not something that you've just made up.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 07:32:55


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Scott-S6 wrote:
But he does stamp it RAW to make clear that is what he's talking about.

You post opinions with zero rules basis and do not stamp it HYWPI and then proceed to argue that against the RAW (which is a violation of the tenets).

If the rules are being discussed and you describe an interpretation as self evident people are going to assume you are talking about the rules, not something that you've just made up.


Sometimes I’m not clear enough; seems I wasn’t clear above so apologies. But trying to tar all my posts as nonsense without rules basis is utterly incorrect. Don’t drink that other guy’s Kool-Aid. I do play by the rules. Where they break, I make them work.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
But he does stamp it RAW to make clear that is what he's talking about.

You post opinions with zero rules basis and do not stamp it HYWPI and then proceed to argue that against the RAW (which is a violation of the tenets).

If the rules are being discussed and you describe an interpretation as self evident people are going to assume you are talking about the rules, not something that you've just made up.


Sometimes I’m not clear enough; seems I wasn’t clear above so apologies. But trying to tar all my posts as nonsense without rules basis is utterly incorrect. Don’t drink that other guy’s Kool-Aid. I do play by the rules. Where they break, I make them work.

I said nothing about all of your posts. But, you do seem to have a blind spot between what the rules actually say and how you believe they ought to work - or you don't differentiate between these two when you post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/18 12:09:30


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Scott-S6 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
But he does stamp it RAW to make clear that is what he's talking about.

You post opinions with zero rules basis and do not stamp it HYWPI and then proceed to argue that against the RAW (which is a violation of the tenets).

If the rules are being discussed and you describe an interpretation as self evident people are going to assume you are talking about the rules, not something that you've just made up.


Sometimes I’m not clear enough; seems I wasn’t clear above so apologies. But trying to tar all my posts as nonsense without rules basis is utterly incorrect. Don’t drink that other guy’s Kool-Aid. I do play by the rules. Where they break, I make them work.

I said nothing about all of your posts. But, you do seem to have a blind spot between what the rules actually say and how you believe they ought to work - or you don't differentiate between these two when you post.


Ill try and delineate a little more clearly for you. I use critical judgment, ‘blind spot’ is harsh and disingenuous in my view, but I’ll take it on board if some posts aren’t making that clear - I’ll try not to do that in future.

Any chance any further discussion of me could hit PMs so the thread can continue?
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: