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...and which will put up with each other. As in, if I was to create a Tzeentch and Nurgle army, that would be against fluff as Tzeentch hates Nurgle.

Thanks

SG

They all pretty much hate all the others. Khorne and Slaanesh and Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other more than the others. But armies of things like Tzeentch and Nurgle aren't against the fluff. Demons will still work with all the other gods to get things done they just don't like their temporary allies.

A bit like having Space Wolves ally with Sisters of Battle, they don't get on great but they're on the same side.

Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other
Tzeencth and Nurgle hate each other

But Khorne also hates everyone and everything that exists everywhere.

Their forces also work together all the time. The division between chaos is more of an extreme rivalry than all out desire for their destruction.

A Tzeentch and Nurgle army is perfectly fluffy

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Khorne and Nurgle are supposed to be neutral towards one another, same with Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Outside of those pairings, they are opposed.

Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other as they represent change vs acceptance of the Staus quo. Similarly Tzeentch and Khorne are enemies as is is brains vs brawn. Nurgle and Slaanesh are also opposed because one is a sensation-seeker and the other just wants to slum it.

If you modelled the Chaos Gods as a square, the diagonal relationships would be neutral while the sides would be opposing.

The Chaos Gods operate similarly to the Eldar Factions (assuming that 8th didn’t recon this) where one god might hate the others, but they’ll throw down to fight alongside each other if there is good enough reason.

That seems like a bad comparison considering there's one faction that's disliked by everyone and vice versa.

The disliking everyone else is true, but the Khorne/Slaanesh and Tzeentch/Nurgle issue is that they’re fundamentally opposing pairs. T/N is constant change/rot, decay and growth in an unending repetitive cycle. K/S is somewhat less clear (bloodshed vs bliss?) but I’ve come to look at it as sublimation of the self and the death of ego in service of a greater task vs exalting the self and seeking to stroke the ego at all costs. Or single-mindedness vs dilettantism (if that’s even a word!)

Khorne/Tzeentch is surprisingly rarely a factor, given the Blood God’s traditional view of sorcery and how often a piece of sidebar fiction basically says “so the gods agreed to a game of poker and that Tzeentch would provide the cards, and everyone got really p’d off when he had 5 Aces.” Jokingly, I sometimes wonder if Khorne secretly likes the extra rush of rage this invariably provides! I suspect it’s rather more that this is where single-mindedness meets super-complexity, but the difference between Tzeentch and Slaanesh is possibly “yeah, he’s an untrustworthy scheming sack of you-know-what, but at least he has a goal that isn’t just ‘I want a buzz’.”

Besides, even reading the Daemons codex I get the impression that, in 40k at least, it’s watered down now as they have a MUCH more tempting and worthwhile hobby to distract themselves with (i.e. screw the Imperium over whenever and wherever possible!)

The gods are all rivals and will happily see the others' works come to ruin. They main oppositions are, as others have said, just T/N and K/S. The first pairing has different views on fate and the second pairing is, uh, not as well defined. The original reasoning was that Khorne was a god of death and Slaanesh a god of life.

Whether the daemons can work together in the same army depends on the edition and the army book. Sometimes you've been able to mix but been subject to various animosity rules, sometimes the general has been the deciding factor, sometimes you've been able to mix freely and sometimes you haven't been able to mix at all.

It never made sense to me the Khorne and Tzeentch weren't the most opposed since Khonre hates magic and scheming and Tzeentch would detest unthinking brute force just for the sake of brute force (but would gladly use it if it served the great plan).

The colors contrast a big better too. Red/Blue and Purple/Green.

But alas, I don't write the fluff.

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Nurgle loves all, but has to defend his garden from the other gods who keep messing it up.

Tzeentch hates nurgle because Nurgle's poxes and plagues evolve and grow in such a fast and random way that not even tzeentch can predict it. Imagine knowing every possible outcome of everything, except what that fat dude over there is doing. It drives him bonkers, he might not appreciate Khorne's style, but it's obvious what khorne will do, so it's beneath the worry of tzeentch.

Tzeentch hates the fact that he cannot understand nurgles plagues. Nurgles garden continues to grow into every corner of the warp, so the other gods defend their territory by hurting the garden (especially Tzeentch, who burns it) and nurgle retaliates.

There is a lot of good info about the chaos gods in Libre Chaotica. Though it is a difficult read.

 Galef wrote:
It never made sense to me the Khorne and Tzeentch weren't the most opposed since Khonre hates magic and scheming and Tzeentch would detest unthinking brute force just for the sake of brute force (but would gladly use it if it served the great plan).

The colors contrast a big better too. Red/Blue and Purple/Green.

But alas, I don't write the fluff.

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I've never understood the thing people have with Khorne hating planning or why Tzeentch is all about ridiculous schemes. It's like the wolf memes...

I like the way it is. Change V Stasis and Honoured view of combat V fighting just for drawn out pleasure.

I'm pretty sure that there used to be a rule (whether in 40K or Fantasy I don't know) called 'ancient enemies' or something like that, it prevented followers of specific Chaos gods from being in the same army.

So if you want to be a real purist you could avoid allying Nurgle with Tzeentch and Slannesh with Khorne.

In the 3rd edition Realm of Chaos books, the followers of the opposed pairs suffered Animosity against each other, IIRC.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In the 3rd edition Realm of Chaos books, the followers of the opposed pairs suffered Animosity against each other, IIRC.

Ah nice, your memory is better than mine!

Animosity was in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex.

Realms of Chaos (Slaves to Darkness & Lost and the Damned) were joint fantasy/40k books, the daemon rules were printed in the former section of the book and they suffered hatred against opposing daemons and followers, but IIRC the only way to take daemons of more than one god in 40k was to use the Black Legion list in Slaves to Darkness which I know stated that rule didn't apply.

 Galef wrote:
Khorne hates Slaanesh, but Slaanesh loves Khorne
Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other, and Slaanesh watches intently

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FTFY

Back in the day didn't Khorne and Tzeentch hate each other because of their diametrically opposed styles of going to war - aka magic/the warp vs brutal h2h combat?

Also Slaanesh and Nurgle hated each other because of their 'artistic' differences. Slaanesh finding the repugnant look of Nurgle insulting IIRC?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Back in the day didn't Khorne and Tzeentch hate each other because of their diametrically opposed styles of going to war - aka magic/the warp vs brutal h2h combat?

Also Slaanesh and Nurgle hated each other because of their 'artistic' differences. Slaanesh finding the repugnant look of Nurgle insulting IIRC?

That has never been the case, no.

Pilum wrote:


Besides, even reading the Daemons codex I get the impression that, in 40k at least, it’s watered down now as they have a MUCH more tempting and worthwhile hobby to distract themselves with (i.e. screw the Imperium over whenever and wherever possible!)

Its actually one of the more disappointing things i've encountered as time has gone on.

A lot of the old Fluff and Fiction really did play up the aspect of Chaos at war with Itself.

Now such rivalries are more....muted i guess.

They aren't muted just off screen. They're all in constant war in the Warp which is what the Demon Primarchs were doing for thousands of years. They were largely done with reality so they stuck to the internal war of Chaos.

They all hate eachother.

Ancient Enemies was in the 3.5 Codex. No mixing MoK units with MoS units in an army, No MoN units with MoT units in an army.

Its why im surprised they didnt bring it back for Mortarion and Magnus, eho IMO should never work together EVER due to their hatred before the Heresy, pushed even further by their opposing Gods. But whatever.

My own head canon is that Khorne and Nurgle go together due to the death and decay from all the bodies Khorne leaves behind.

Nurgle always Waxes and wanes the most, the bigger the body count, the more materials he will have to corrupt.

Now, I've also teamed my Slaneshi and Nurgle forces together, as a horrible Necro Daemon STD nightmare faction of the most unpleasant afflictions ever. Nurgle does have a sinister sense of humor compared to the other Gods.

Nurgle would always hate Tzeentch IMO.

All the Chaos gods despise eachother ultimately for reasons of their own.


But Tzeentch is the master schemer, knowing all outcomes of every action in the past, present, and future. Isn't it by his actions that he lets the Garden of Nurgle expand in certain ways, to change the landscape of the warp and reality to his own liking? Is it not Tzeentch who allowed Khorne to massacre worlds in glory and Blood for the Blood god, why not let the brutes do some of the heavy lifting? Does he not introduce new pleasures and change to the Slaaneshi followers so they can unleash their cacophony of delight upon their unsuspecting victims?

The Changer of Ways is the one true god.


I mean... For the Emperor!

They’re essentially Tories.

They’re not friends. They’d gladly stab each other in the back if they thought it’d advance their position. But they’re not above working together if it means putting the boot into the weak and the poor.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They’re essentially Tories.

They’re not friends. They’d gladly stab each other in the back if they thought it’d advance their position. But they’re not above working together if it means putting the boot into the weak and the poor.

Incoming derailment:


Back to Chaos: They're chaotic. If they followed rules they would be ordered. They just happen to possess naturally opposing forces, but they have no rules that prevent those forces from coinciding in disastrous ways.