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2018/05/08 10:21:08
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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Is it a thing? Are things in the 40k universe predetermined to happen.
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2018/05/08 10:42:53
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Violent Enforcer
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Of course: everything goes According to Plan.
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Do you know what your sin is, Malcolm Reynolds?
Ah hell, I'm a fan of all seven.
But right now, I'm gonna have to go with wrath. |
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2018/05/08 11:34:32
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes, but fate seems to be not entirely set and subject to steering and molding. The efforts of Eldar Farseers and Tzeentchian plots nudge events in the directions they want. Now it could be argued that even their nudging is part of the predestined fate, but that is an unprovable and unfalsifiable assertion.
Certainly some of the powers exhibited by certain entities appears to be plot armor/fate. The Dire Avenger Exarch power Battle Fate is this in action. Shots that should by all rights penetrate glance off, or perhaps more subtle effects occur like the enemy suffering from dud rounds, misfires, and targeting system failures.
The Farseer powers of Fortune and Doom are another example. Doom turns grazing hits into direct ones. So it seems that these powers seem to manipulate fate/destiny/probability or whatever you want to call it.
The fate of major players like the Phoenix Lords appears to be so momentous and heavy that it seems very hard if not impossible to steer their fate. They are fated to die a final death at the Rhana Dandra. So it seems events conspire to mean they will be resurrected from any earlier death, or escape from any imprisonment they find themselves in.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/08 12:07:16
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2018/05/08 12:14:57
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
Connah's Quay, North Wales
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agree with above poster, the best example of Fate is the Phoenix Lords. Whenever a Phoenix Lord gets involved in a conflict then everybody around them has their fate caught in the 'gravity' of the PL's fate and thus are unable to be effected by a farseers machinations.
We don't know what gave them this power or why. Maybe the last vestiges of Asuryan, maybe it's just the collective psychic power of the mini-infinity circuit inside each suit subconsciously making the guiding belief of the PL's reality. Either way the PL's WILL be at the the final war against chaos and they will die there.
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2018/05/08 12:39:03
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I wouldn't go so far as to say people around them or even the Phoenix Lords are utterly immune to manipulation of fate. It is possible to cast Doom on a Phoenix Lord for example, or cast Fortune on someone they are attacking. However these are shifting of minor details compared to the ultimate fate of the Phoenix Lord.
If you Doom the Phoenix Lord and it dies, events conspire to ensure eventually it gets resurrected. If you had not Doomed the Phoenix Lord, maybe it survives the battle and walks away. Either way, it is still on track to make it to the Rhana Dandra. The fate of the less important people around them though might be more permanently affected since they might die a real permanent death. Maybe that Fortuned target survives the Phoenix Lord's attack when they otherwise might have died. It might not matter to the Phoenix Lord's Rhana Dandra fate but it matters to the target that lived.
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2018/05/08 14:53:43
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Iracundus wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say people around them or even the Phoenix Lords are utterly immune to manipulation of fate. It is possible to cast Doom on a Phoenix Lord for example, or cast Fortune on someone they are attacking. However these are shifting of minor details compared to the ultimate fate of the Phoenix Lord.
If you Doom the Phoenix Lord and it dies, events conspire to ensure eventually it gets resurrected. If you had not Doomed the Phoenix Lord, maybe it survives the battle and walks away. Either way, it is still on track to make it to the Rhana Dandra. The fate of the less important people around them though might be more permanently affected since they might die a real permanent death. Maybe that Fortuned target survives the Phoenix Lord's attack when they otherwise might have died. It might not matter to the Phoenix Lord's Rhana Dandra fate but it matters to the target that lived.
It's also worth to notice Doom and Fortune and some other psychic powers are just abstractions of the true effecs.
As far we know that's just a tabletop representation of a Farseer quick glimpse on the future and warning friends to fire at an exact moment/spot or to take cover right before the enemy attacks.
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2018/05/08 15:09:02
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Fixture of Dakka
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That's not an inference made by us, that was the description in the rulebooks.
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2018/05/08 16:28:17
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Not really. The concept of Fate is mostly rooted in Greek and Norse Mythos, where Fate was inescapable, even the gods couldn't change it. In 40K, entities like Tzneetch and eldar Farseers are constantly trying to deliberately shape the future towards desired outcomes. That sort of shows that there's really no 'fate', given that they can manipulate the future to such a degree.
There are, of course, prophecies, but these are just visions of a likely future, and Farseers can work to bring it to pass, or look for future paths that prevent the prophecy from coming to pass. Of course, the authors of the stories will just call it 'escaping Fate', but the very concept of Fate requires that it be inescapable. Most authors don't like those kind of constraints, so 40K pretends to have fate, but is happy to ignore it when they feel like it.
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2018/05/08 17:21:40
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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There is no fate but what we make...
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2018/05/08 18:20:36
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It's not knowable within a system if the system is controlled from outside. And almost all sources we have are intended to be "in universe" views. So, in theory, we can't know if "fate" is a thing in 40k.
I'm sure those trapped in the webs of anything sufficiently craftier than they are effectively in a reality where 'fate' is basically a thing. Much like how sufficiently advanced technology is effectively magic. And between Eldrad, Tzeech, Cegorath, and more, that's gonna be quite common in the 40k universe.
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2018/05/08 18:29:29
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Since there is a god of it, I’d say yes.
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2018/05/08 21:20:04
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Lord Perversor wrote:Iracundus wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say people around them or even the Phoenix Lords are utterly immune to manipulation of fate. It is possible to cast Doom on a Phoenix Lord for example, or cast Fortune on someone they are attacking. However these are shifting of minor details compared to the ultimate fate of the Phoenix Lord.
If you Doom the Phoenix Lord and it dies, events conspire to ensure eventually it gets resurrected. If you had not Doomed the Phoenix Lord, maybe it survives the battle and walks away. Either way, it is still on track to make it to the Rhana Dandra. The fate of the less important people around them though might be more permanently affected since they might die a real permanent death. Maybe that Fortuned target survives the Phoenix Lord's attack when they otherwise might have died. It might not matter to the Phoenix Lord's Rhana Dandra fate but it matters to the target that lived.
It's also worth to notice Doom and Fortune and some other psychic powers are just abstractions of the true effecs.
As far we know that's just a tabletop representation of a Farseer quick glimpse on the future and warning friends to fire at an exact moment/spot or to take cover right before the enemy attacks.
The quote for Doom is:
With a simple manipulation of that which is to come, the psyker grants a darkened fate to a chosen foe. While this shadow rests upon the enemy's soul, death seeks them out above all others, each blow or shot that comes their way rendered inescapably lethal.
That certainly implies more than just telling others where to shoot. It describes a curse like effect wherein anything that comes their way becomes potentially lethal.
The Warlord trait Fate's Messenger also implies the existence of some form of fate:
The strands of fate coil and twist around the Warlord, the paths of destiny manipulated to keep him from harm so that he might strike back at his foes.
Although mechanically it is a +1W, the background explanation above makes it out to be like a lesser version of the Phoenix Lords' fate. The Warlord losing that extra Wound is them using up that "extra life"/plot armor.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 21:23:41
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2018/05/08 22:00:40
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Another thing changed for the worse in the most recent codexes...
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2018/05/09 00:09:41
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Destiny is a guess that comes true. If it doesn't, its a metaphor.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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2018/05/12 14:24:39
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Iracundus gave a short but accurate account on how fate works in 40k. Fate has as far as I can remember had a defined role in 40k, but it's never set in stone. It's not a surprise that most people in this thread reference the Eldar and Tzeentch because they are the most prominent fate manipulators out there. I'll list two interesting quirks on the workings of fate below.
Fate and race: Fate works differently for the various races. In path of the seer by Gav Thorpe the main character (an Eldar seer) has a comment on human souls. Whilst the souls of humans are weaker then that of the Eldar they are also far more unpredictable. Any human is more likely to reach the more improbable parts of fate then an Eldar is. It's said that their souls burn small but all are capable of great flares of strenght, whilst the Eldars are far more controlled and rigid. Therefore the fate of a human is generally speaking more uncertain then that of an Eldar. Whenever this is cultural or biological is up for debate, though I tend to lean towards the former.
Fate and foretelling: Every psyker that reads the future reads a myriad possible futures. In 40k someone that uses warpcraft to see the future always struggle with the sheer quantities of possibilities. Therefore they attempt to limit their views to the immediate future and to certain places, people or events. This can be done for a person whereupon a set possibilities of events become viewable. Then usually the next step is to find out what triggers/stops a certain event and not do that. In this way a persons fate can be seen, but it's always only a possible fate among a myriad other ones.
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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2018/05/12 15:15:45
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Does it matter?
And you can't test the hypothesis, so you can't answer the question.
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2018/05/12 17:06:37
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Fate in 40K works the same way it does in real life, anything that can happen does - but you only experience the most likely outcome. There's no one future, but multiples that also include you the observer knowing a version of them.
Farseers can see probable, possible futures and track back to see what they need to do to swing things that way. That said, regardless of they whether they manage it or not, the other stuff happens anyway - just not often enough for people to be aware of that reality compared to the consensus version that we'd recognise as the present/past.
In short, the future is played out but unevenly in infinite ways - though sometimes it is possible to do something that shifts the balance, creating new ways and blocking off old ones.
Some events do seem to be fixed, and others are pure static - the creation of Slaanesh seems to have fixed itself by echoing back through time, whilst Shadowpoints might either be an artefact of the seer being unable to see beyond themselves or a true point where there is no clear defined probably path.
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2018/05/13 16:39:20
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Also Farseers must be trained to become largely detached from the Fates they observe.
Obsessing too much with a single posibility despite how odd or rare can make it become a reality as it happens in path of the Seer
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2018/05/13 20:29:23
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Dakka Veteran
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Still the Pheonix Lords could just be suffering a case of the ork.
If I believe enough, it will be so.
Who said theyd be at the battle of dandruff. No one but themselves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/13 20:29:41
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2018/05/13 21:01:42
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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the ancient wrote:Still the Pheonix Lords could just be suffering a case of the ork.
If I believe enough, it will be so.
Who said theyd be at the battle of dandruff. No one but themselves.
Well Gav Thorpe it's slowly developing the Phoenix Lords fate in his novels.
While going into much detail the Phoenix Lords just *watch* their fate (or Asur last dream) and act accordingly, but it's somehow even secretive between them since no Phoenix Lord know what the others see.
I guess only if he writes further novels for more Phoenix Lords he may finally fully develop the idea behind.
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2018/05/26 19:37:39
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Yellin' Yoof
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If i recall correctly Farseers only see potential futures and actively try to influence events so they will work out better for Eldar. So not really?
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2018/05/31 20:31:45
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Squishy Squig
Britain
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As a fervant worshippa of da mighty gods mork an gork i can say that they's got somethin special planned for all o' us
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2018/06/06 12:42:32
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm quite certain fate is Tzeentch. I believe it said in one of the more recent codex (or maybe its a fantasy thing) that Tzeentch holds the strands of fate for friends and foe alike with only himself knowing the ultimate intention of its unfathomable goals even when a defeat is seen, it's just another ploy. Something a long those lines.
I've never seen any of the other 'just as planned' players described in quite the same sentiments.
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2018/06/06 14:14:07
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Tzeentch sees all the fates but he doesn't control them completely.
I don't think Tzeentch has a plan in the same way everyone else does. Every time the goal is in sight he changes it.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2018/06/06 18:12:15
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Dakka Veteran
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Doom guy says FU to fate.
10 yrs ago it wouldve been the Emp when he went to Molech.
Now days lawsuits. Its a compleatly unrelated thing.
Theres many things struggling to forge the fates. A loose stone might kill you, if you slip at the wrong time.
As the Scars say better to be lucky, than good.
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2018/06/06 19:21:59
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
Illinois
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It comes down to how you define fate. Is there an immutable ultimate destiny for everyone? No, certainly not - the future is always changing, and always changeable, and that's a pretty fundamental aspect of the 40k universe. Things aren't fated to happen; people can alter the course of the future.
But there are always going to be things out of your control. The Space Wolves accept that they have a wyrd, a fate, and what happens happens. Maybe they die today, or tomorrow, gloriously or in vain, but their fate will find them regardless.
I would say that Fate in the 40k universe is the past shaping the future. Every event that happens makes other events more or less likely; every action taken in the present has the possibility of altering the future. Some actors have a greater chance of impacting the future - Tzeentch is far more likely to change the course of history than Jenkins the guardsman - but no future is certain, and no one controls it completely.
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2018/06/07 14:38:38
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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John Prins wrote:
Not really. The concept of Fate is mostly rooted in Greek and Norse Mythos, where Fate was inescapable, even the gods couldn't change it. In 40K, entities like Tzneetch and eldar Farseers are constantly trying to deliberately shape the future towards desired outcomes. That sort of shows that there's really no 'fate', given that they can manipulate the future to such a degree.
There are, of course, prophecies, but these are just visions of a likely future, and Farseers can work to bring it to pass, or look for future paths that prevent the prophecy from coming to pass. Of course, the authors of the stories will just call it 'escaping Fate', but the very concept of Fate requires that it be inescapable. Most authors don't like those kind of constraints, so 40K pretends to have fate, but is happy to ignore it when they feel like it.
For Greek mythology, that is quite debatable. At least, whether fate was inescapable or not and whether the gods (especially Zeus) were bound to it or not was something that seems to have been debated by the Ancient Greeks. In Greek mythology, fate was controlled by the Moirai, and both gods and mortals were bound to their authority. But according to numerous sources (for example Hesiod or Pausanias), Zeus was above them and able to command them. Then again, numerous other sources assert that Zeus was as bound to fate as other gods were. Nonetheless, it is clear that the Ancient Greeks believed fate could be subverted or at least temporarily deceived, as in the story of Meleager, and that people, through their actions, could influence their own fate, as in the Homeric poems. Then again, it is probable that such theological questions were the subject of debate in Ancient Greece, and that different people could have believed different things.
40k certainly has fate as a concept, which is the domain of the god Tzeentch (known as the Architect of Fate). Certainly, Tzeentch himself is above fate, as he is described as the one who weaves the skeins of fate (which may originate from the Well of Eternity mentioned in the Chaos Daemons codex) and interferes in them according to his fulfill his unknowably complex schemes. Since he is said to see all thoughts and dreams and know the future, that also heavily implies a deterministic universe. Tzeentch would not be able to see the future if mortals had a true free will. I'd say that fate is definitely there in 40k, controlled more or less by Tzeentch who is the only one who has the power to command it, albeit an incomplete command, as it is also said there are 'threads of the future' that elude even Tzeentch. Sure, people like Farseers may believe they can see and change the future, but who is to say that their "changing the future" had not been predetermined long ago, and therefore actually was the "default future"?
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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2018/06/07 15:14:38
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Tzeentch don't control Fate. For him to control fate he should have free will.
The Chaos Gods don't have free will, they hare enslaved by the emotions that make them be. Tzeentch is just as bound by fate as everything else.
Thats why all of his plans never achieve anything. Because he can't. Is nature is to always scheme things without an end.
Thats the key part of the Great Game. No Chaos God can win agaisnt the others, not because they lack the skill/opportunity/power but because they literally can't.
And, the universe is deterministic, even ours. Everything is bound by mathematics, so every single thing that happens in the universe, even our own thoughts are the consequences of our brain-biology, something that is based in mathematic values. Every decision or "random" event that happens, couldn't have happened in any other way, at least in this version of our universe, because what has happened has happened and the "invisible numbers" where there for that outcome to become our reality.
Of course, this is at such a fundamental level that it doesn't effect us. We can chose our future. It does not matter that it is pre-defined. We don't know it, and for it to become a realirty the present moments needs to become past. The same happens in warhammer 40k.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/07 15:18:39
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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2018/06/07 15:45:42
Subject: Re:Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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The short answer to this thread
Yes........ and No. Depends on who you are.
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2018/06/08 19:29:06
Subject: Is fate a thing in the 40k universe?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Well all people that can divine the future still make mistakes, even Tzeentch fails in his plans. I think there are probably some avenues of futures that are fated but lots of other possible futures can be changed. But then the question is, were they fated to change the future... You can really never know. Knowing the future does not necessarily mean you can change it, its like what the emperor said when he was told Horus would beat him, by the astropath 'You can be omnipotent or omniscient, but you can never be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 19:33:18
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