Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why?

It has less wounds and potential damage than the eel boys and girls, isnt a battleline under any circumstances and being a monster dosnt benifit from all the idoneth cover sources. So why dose it exist? The one potentialy viable idea i have seen is a big unit of 3 being buffed by the hightide king comand ability but thats super gimmicky.

To my mind it needs one (or more) of a these potential changes

1. Remove monster so it isnt countersynagistic with the idoneth idea
2. Make its ranges option actualy pose a threat, this would help trigger there charge bonuses and become a sudo artillery peice
3. Give them a mini turtle bite, on a six you do 3 mortal wounds

I dont know if any of these are enough to fix it. But atm it wont be sold unless bundled in a get started like they have done with the kharadron overlords trash options.

Why?

Because GW caters to more than just the min/max crowd and some people will field it because of their perceived cool-factor despite its lack of ability to see them on to the final tables at LVO and Adepticon and the SCGT.

Because it's a model Great White and that makes it awesome by default? And as above, not everyone plays min-max to hell and back. Personally I'm running six along with twelve eels and a king because it's going to look awesome on the table.

Valid arguments and yes it looks cool. But they are in control of the rules and now with match play gw acknowledges the competative scene so your answers are a little hollow. It is possible to have the amazing great white blah blah blah, but still give it rules that make it viable. In 5 minuits i made some comparison formulars and found how bad it was so why didnt gw just do that during development. Fix it. And now your competitive scene buys them (increasing sales and prevolence of the cool factor) and your causal scene buys them. Im not saying screw the casuals im saying they are not mutualy exclusive and there aproach lacks buisness acumen and sens.

Because no one really gives a damn. Apart from the internet and a select few loud voices, the competitive scene is really irrelevant. Miniature games are a visual thing first, gaming thing second. 95% of people play at homes and stores and are just there for fun, not playing to beat their opponents into the ground.

If you want to take that stance then fair enough. But it would have cost them nothing and made them more. All it means now is that gg2018 will habe a page for idoneth witg an allopex change so i guess that would get them more money from book sales.

You can be as dismissive of the competative scene as you like but it typicaly drives the hardcore fans who make the free publicity content in the form of podcasts and blogs so alianating and ignoring your cometative scene will reduce your visability to the public, and there by success. I have never played at a tournament in my life but i do listen to poddcasts and injoy the social aspect of gaming and most new games i habe goten into its been becus thouse sources like podcasts who are tonri players have talked about the new game and got me intrested. FFG is very encouraging of there competative players even though there the minority as they are the voice of your game

They do acknowledge min/max play. However, that doesn't mean that the game is designed around min/max play. They provide a structure for min/max play but continue to design the game around casual / narrative guidelines.

Additionally... AOS is the very last game I'd ever play competitively because of its balance issues. AOS shines in the social narrative casual front however.

You asked "why", that is to me why. Because the designers are not designing the game highlighting its powergaming aspect, but rather its narrative and cool-factor aspect.

I haven't looked at the thing's point costs so I can't comment on if its actually underpowered based on its point cost. Making things more powerful for the sake of making it more powerful if its in its proper point range though would definitely not be something I support (we already have a lot of that in AOS which is why I don't feel its a proper competitive game)

Indeed and lets hope it stays like that. The last thing AoS needs is be turned into a flinging competitive argument like the 40K board up above has.

But no, the competitive scene is not the voice of the hobby. I would highly recommend you spend some time over at the Grand Alliance and get a feel for the different types of gameplay and who plays what and why.

I guess you didn't read the recent battle report in WD, those shark guys chomped through everything!

Doesn't seem so bad to me. For the same price as the cheaper cavalry squad you get a reasonable shooting attack and a platform that doesn't lose combat effectiveness as it takes damage. The lower number of attacks are offset by consistent big damage and rend.

They also, obviously, benefit from single-model buffs like Hand of Glory, though the Leviadon is a better candidate overall, if you didn't take one, or its dead, Sharkey is probably the next best candidate.

Two of them are only slightly more expensive than a unit of three kurnoth hunters, trading total wounds for big speed and more attacks overall. Play them that way, doing your best to attack with them before they take hits themselves, and I think they'll be as good at ripping up elites and hard infantry.

GW don't even attempt to make balanced units. That's why.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Doesn't seem so bad to me. For the same price as the cheaper cavalry squad you get a reasonable shooting attack and a platform that doesn't lose combat effectiveness as it takes damage. The lower number of attacks are offset by consistent big damage and rend.

Realistically, the issue is that it's been showcased as an 'artillery' unit with the ballista it has.

It would have been nice for Allopex to be able to run and shoot and charge during Flood Tide(turn 2) rather than being able to do just one or the other.

They also, obviously, benefit from single-model buffs like Hand of Glory, though the Leviadon is a better candidate overall, if you didn't take one, or its dead, Sharkey is probably the next best candidate.

Two of them are only slightly more expensive than a unit of three kurnoth hunters, trading total wounds for big speed and more attacks overall. Play them that way, doing your best to attack with them before they take hits themselves, and I think they'll be as good at ripping up elites and hard infantry.

Truthfully, Allopex are the tax unit for bringing a Leviadon and Eels in their formation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Doesn't seem so bad to me. For the same price as the cheaper cavalry squad you get a reasonable shooting attack and a platform that doesn't lose combat effectiveness as it takes damage. The lower number of attacks are offset by consistent big damage and rend.

Realistically, the issue is that it's been showcased as an 'artillery' unit with the ballista it has.

It would have been nice for Allopex to be able to run and shoot and charge during Flood Tide(turn 2) rather than being able to do just one or the other.

So take a unit of two or even three of them with a soulscryer and put them down nine inches away from the enemy at the end of your movement phase. Shoot and charge with a +3 to your charge roll, or let them be the latter half of the proverbial one-two punch knowing they can't be shot at while lining up their target.

Truthfully, Allopex are the tax unit for bringing a Leviadon and Eels in their formation.

I mean, sure, but if you're not going to do anything with them you go from spending 100 points for a nifty re-roll to 240 points for the same. At that price is it really worth more than a couple of allied wizards?

Compared to eels the Allopex has lower melee output (but better rend), but also has ranged attacks, doesn't worry about battleshock (unless one foolishly takes them in more than 1-man units), and doesn't lose any potency after suffering 4 wounds (whereas the eels lose a guy). Eels on the other hand gain cover, have a utility ability, and can serve as battleline.

Suffice to say the player running a mix will do better than the player running just one or the other.

Lots of people have poo-pood the Allopex on paper, but one Allopex will have an easier time getting behind enemy lines and chewing on an enemy wizard than 3 Eels will, thanks to needing to be outside of 3" of things. Getting rend on their attacks is very nice, and having a ranged attack (however piddly) is still a decent bonus.

Yeah they don't get cover, but that means they also don't care about being in range of Leviadons or something, which means more of your army can focus there. Casting Mystic Shield on an Allopex makes it a miniature tank. 3+ save with 8 wounds is something that someone really need to focus down, or else it will chew something to death. Giving it the command bonus from Volturnos on High Tide gives it 13 attacks, 7 of which are the rending ones, and 2 of those have higher damage. On top of attacking first, that gets real nasty.

"But that's an expensive and situational combo!!!" you'll scream. Yes. Most combos are. Most synergy requires a person to use several strategies and abilities at once to get the greatest effect. Nobody seems to mind that Eels getting Mystic Shield and being in range of a Gloomtide Shipwreck for maximum survival is also a situational combo. Nobody seems to mind that using a Soulscryer and Briomdar to get 3 units flanking is a situational and expensive combo.

"But I'd rather use Volturnos' buff on Thralls and Eels!" And rightly you could, but buffing an Allopex is an *option* that could mean the difference between killing that high save character or... not. Eels don't have rend, and only the Morsarr get the mortal wounds, and only on the charge.

The Allopex is a monster hunter and a character hunter, and good strategists will use it appropriately. Taking advantage of the Tides and Forgotten Nightmares will keep them alive until they can get to where they want to be. They'll take advantage of enemy mistakes, tie up a big beast for a couple turns, or finish off a troublesome unit. They'll wreck those weakling objective holding units while your mortal wound eels can hunt bigger targets and your shield eels can focus on staying in the right position to soak up attacks.

Or, you can write the Allopex off and min-max, spam, and netlist to your heart's content, ultimately focusing your list to something bland and flavorless, scaring your local opponents from wanting to play against you because you're a WAAC player or whatever crap.

Ultimately, we don't even know if the Deepkin are very competitive AT ALL, since most people in the world don't even OWN half the models for their army yet.

drbored wrote:
Lots of people have poo-pood the Allopex on paper, but one Allopex will have an easier time getting behind enemy lines and chewing on an enemy wizard than 3 Eels will, thanks to needing to be outside of 3" of things. Getting rend on their attacks is very nice, and having a ranged attack (however piddly) is still a decent bonus.

Yeah they don't get cover, but that means they also don't care about being in range of Leviadons or something, which means more of your army can focus there. Casting Mystic Shield on an Allopex makes it a miniature tank. 3+ save with 8 wounds is something that someone really need to focus down, or else it will chew something to death. Giving it the command bonus from Volturnos on High Tide gives it 13 attacks, 7 of which are the rending ones, and 2 of those have higher damage. On top of attacking first, that gets real nasty.

"But that's an expensive and situational combo!!!" you'll scream. Yes. Most combos are. Most synergy requires a person to use several strategies and abilities at once to get the greatest effect. Nobody seems to mind that Eels getting Mystic Shield and being in range of a Gloomtide Shipwreck for maximum survival is also a situational combo. Nobody seems to mind that using a Soulscryer and Briomdar to get 3 units flanking is a situational and expensive combo.

"But I'd rather use Volturnos' buff on Thralls and Eels!" And rightly you could, but buffing an Allopex is an *option* that could mean the difference between killing that high save character or... not. Eels don't have rend, and only the Morsarr get the mortal wounds, and only on the charge.

The Allopex is a monster hunter and a character hunter, and good strategists will use it appropriately. Taking advantage of the Tides and Forgotten Nightmares will keep them alive until they can get to where they want to be. They'll take advantage of enemy mistakes, tie up a big beast for a couple turns, or finish off a troublesome unit. They'll wreck those weakling objective holding units while your mortal wound eels can hunt bigger targets and your shield eels can focus on staying in the right position to soak up attacks.

Or, you can write the Allopex off and min-max, spam, and netlist to your heart's content, ultimately focusing your list to something bland and flavorless, scaring your local opponents from wanting to play against you because you're a WAAC player or whatever crap.

Ultimately, we don't even know if the Deepkin are very competitive AT ALL, since most people in the world don't even OWN half the models for their army yet.

Agreed on all accounts! Thank you for your fresh non-WAAC outlook.

Izikial wrote:
You can be as dismissive of the competative scene as you like but it typicaly drives the hardcore fans who make the free publicity content

Those hardcore fans drive away at least as many as they bring in.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Izikial wrote:
You can be as dismissive of the competative scene as you like but it typicaly drives the hardcore fans who make the free publicity content

Those hardcore fans drive away at least as many as they bring in.

I've even been pushed away from groups that are simply too competitive, and for a time gave up Warhammer of both kinds completely because I was sick of the 'You can only play the game one way' attitude.

But that's getting off topic.

I like the Allopex and I plan to run two of them at least. They'l be my flank chargers that my opponent HAS to account for, lest they get in unopposed.