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I’m talking about of they’re part of the Astra Militarum as an institution, not as a Codex. I’ve seen some conflicting lore on this, so I’m curious.

As an institution they're separate. They're a tiny and irrelevant torture "school" that produces nothing of value on the scale of the IG. Their reasons for existing at all seem highly questionable, but I guess someone high up in the Imperium loves their torture. They're even rarer than space marines, and most conflicts will never see one.

Now, many/most IG regiments do have their own "scions" equivalent in storm troopers/grenadiers/etc: elite soldiers armed with heavy lasguns. They are integrated parts of the regiment, often picked from the regiment's veterans and given special training for their role. From a rules point of view these units are identical, they just have different fluff behind them. Most storm trooper models in tabletop armies are best interpreted as these units.

Aren't they part of the same organization as the Commissars.... collegiat progenium or something?

 Peregrine wrote:
As an institution they're separate. They're a tiny and irrelevant torture "school" that produces nothing of value on the scale of the IG. Their reasons for existing at all seem highly questionable, but I guess someone high up in the Imperium loves their torture. They're even rarer than space marines, and most conflicts will never see one.

Do you have a source for the Schola Progenium being so rare? As I understood it, they produce the entiriety of the Commissariat, with every Regiment in the Astra Militarum having at least one Commissar, usuallly more. That is probably more Commissars than Space Marines alone, and they are supposed to be only a small number of the soldiers produced by the Schola.

That basically suggeststhe Schola is enormous and found on a great many Imperial worlds.

 Peregrine wrote:
As an institution they're separate. They're a tiny and irrelevant torture "school" that produces nothing of value on the scale of the IG. Their reasons for existing at all seem highly questionable, but I guess someone high up in the Imperium loves their torture. They're even rarer than space marines, and most conflicts will never see one.

Now, many/most IG regiments do have their own "scions" equivalent in storm troopers/grenadiers/etc: elite soldiers armed with heavy lasguns. They are integrated parts of the regiment, often picked from the regiment's veterans and given special training for their role. From a rules point of view these units are identical, they just have different fluff behind them. Most storm trooper models in tabletop armies are best interpreted as these units.

If they are seperate, does that mean that the militarum tempestus has a different chain of command from the Astra militarum’s?

Old fluff had 10 000 stormtroopers all in a single régiment. New fluff has various régiments of Scions, so their numbers might be more relevant now.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Old fluff had 10 000 stormtroopers all in a single régiment. New fluff has various régiments of Scions, so their numbers might be more relevant now.

That sounds like another case of "GW has no clue with numbers". 10,000 stormtroopers would be far, far outnumbered by the numbers of commissars, who are supposed to be exceptional.

Yeah, I think this has been retconned.

I'm not up to date on the Tempestus Scions book, but previously there was an institution called the "Schola Progenium" that maintained a bunch of training facilities around the galaxy and served as a mechanism of projecting Imperial authority. The Scholas mixed together an officers' academy for the Guard, the Commissariat, and the Navy, a finishing school for Imperial nobility, a formal school for the Inquisition, and a military training program that fed cadets to the Battle Sisters and to Stormtrooper regiments.

There wasn't one centralized Stormtrooper command at that point; various Stormtrooper regiments were attached to the same chain of command as normal Guard regiments at the Sector or Sub-Sector level.

And independent of that arrangement back then there were elite/over-equipped formations within other Guard regiments that used the same rules/profiles as the Stormtroopers proper independent of the Schola training track, such as the Kasrkins from Cadia.

The Stormtrooper to Tempestus fluff reboot was...beyond atrocious, the fluff there is unforgivably bad between Snuffporn Hogwarts and some of the other garbage.

That said, Stormtroopers/Scions are part of the Imperial Guard, but, much like FW and GW, but are deployed and operated in as independent commands dispatched conflict zones or attached to larger forces by upper command echelons for specific purposes. Much like the Deathwing among the Dark Angels or Paladins/Purifiers among the Grey Knights.

The Tempestus Scions are attached to the Ordo Tempestus which is itself a minor Ordo that constitute the Adeptus Munitorum. Scions have their own logistical personnel, their own officers, their own training facility and program, but are ultimately under the control of the Adeptus Munitorum just like the Astra Militarum. To make a comparison, it would be like if the Astra Militarum was the Army corp. and the Scions the Navy. They are both part of the national armed forces of a country, are both under the orders of a minister of defense (or an equivalent).

 Haighus wrote:
Do you have a source for the Schola Progenium being so rare? As I understood it, they produce the entiriety of the Commissariat, with every Regiment in the Astra Militarum having at least one Commissar, usuallly more. That is probably more Commissars than Space Marines alone, and they are supposed to be only a small number of the soldiers produced by the Schola.

That basically suggeststhe Schola is enormous and found on a great many Imperial worlds.

The new fluff presents the combined commissar/Trademarkus™ Scions™ training as a single school, Hogwarts with torture servitors. That puts a severe upper limit on how many soldiers it can produce, especially since 95% of them are apparently tortured to death to prove the loyalty of the few survivors.

(Yes, this is ing stupid. The best thing to do is to pretend that abomination of a book was never published.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Do you have a source for the Schola Progenium being so rare? As I understood it, they produce the entiriety of the Commissariat, with every Regiment in the Astra Militarum having at least one Commissar, usuallly more. That is probably more Commissars than Space Marines alone, and they are supposed to be only a small number of the soldiers produced by the Schola.

That basically suggeststhe Schola is enormous and found on a great many Imperial worlds.

The new fluff presents the combined commissar/Trademarkus™ Scions™ training as a single school, Hogwarts with torture servitors. That puts a severe upper limit on how many soldiers it can produce, especially since 95% of them are apparently tortured to death to prove the loyalty of the few survivors.

(Yes, this is ing stupid. The best thing to do is to pretend that abomination of a book was never published.)

is that school defined as having a single campus?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Do you have a source for the Schola Progenium being so rare? As I understood it, they produce the entiriety of the Commissariat, with every Regiment in the Astra Militarum having at least one Commissar, usuallly more. That is probably more Commissars than Space Marines alone, and they are supposed to be only a small number of the soldiers produced by the Schola.

That basically suggeststhe Schola is enormous and found on a great many Imperial worlds.

The new fluff presents the combined commissar/Trademarkus™ Scions™ training as a single school, Hogwarts with torture servitors. That puts a severe upper limit on how many soldiers it can produce, especially since 95% of them are apparently tortured to death to prove the loyalty of the few survivors.

(Yes, this is ing stupid. The best thing to do is to pretend that abomination of a book was never published.)

is that school defined as having a single campus?

No, Schola Progenium are spread a bit everywhere in the galaxy. They are a bit like Chapter Worlds (except they don't cover an entre planet of course, they are simply facilities). Each one is slightly different then the other in terms of practice and some are especially well known to produce a specific type of graduates. Regiments of Scions recruit exclusively from a single Schola Progenium (and Tempestor Academy) making each regiments unique from the other in terms of doctrine, heraldic and history (like all other armies in 40K basically). Schola Progenium are only giving basic instruction. They transform you in an obsolutly loyal blank slate person ready to be reforged into something new thanks to the generous application of torture, extreme military training, religious endoctrination and mind erasing drugs (the murder Hogward part). Each Schola Progenium is linked to a variety of institutions from the Tempestor Academy. where graduates from the Schola are turned into Scions, or a Prefectus Academy, where a graduate is turned into a Commissar (some are liked to sinods to produce priests, Sisterhood covents, Halls of Justice for Arbites or advanced schools for top administrators). There is thousands of regiments of Scions, each at least a few hundred strong.