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"Warhammer30k speculations-Fleets of the great crusade and the amount of worlds conquered by them"

Hey fellas
I recently did some research on the topic which was mentioned above. Wondering about the size of the Imperium of man in the 31st millennia and the amount of worlds it conquered,but more importantly at what pace they could do it.

We all know more or less that the great crusade was an event which happened in the 30st millennia,In which the Imperium of man conquered about 2 million worlds in the span of approximately 200 years. Hence regaining most of the lost colonies of mankind after 5000 years of stagnation,starvation,civil,petrifaction,etc (The Age of Strife). Due to the warp storms in the galaxy most of these worlds were unable to send any vessel to roam the galaxy so many of these worlds were reverted to a stone age level of society.
After the warp storms disappeared the Emperor of mankind led his 20 legions of space marines and his numerous imperial army cohorts along with his ships to roam and conquer the galaxy.

At the end of the great crusade there existed about 4200 expeditionary fleets,ranging from only a few ships per a fleet to dozens of ships per a fleet
There were also billions of imperial army troopers and about 2,000,000 space marines Legioners among 18 legions (For clarity reasons in my calculation I will consider the number of legions at 20). In addition to that of course there were about 60,000 fleets but these were mostly for colonization and did not act as spear tip war hosts mostly,so we will tend to the 4200 ships which are the speartip of the Imperium
Now these number could have been increased or decreased during these 200 years of the great crusade but I will just consider these numbers as the average numbers for each year of the crusade.



THE QUESTION IS THIS : How can 4200 fleets (consisting of tens of thousands of ships) conquer 2,000,000 worlds in 200 years?
From after the unification wars till the conquer of Ullanor

This is how i speculate the calculation :
Lets consider that each Primarch would more or less order 9 other fleets other than his own personal fleet. That would be 20 Primarchs each ordering around 10 Fleets,either directly or by auxiliary lieutenants; Hence Primarchs control 200 fleets (20*10=200)
And Imperial Army commander controlling the remaining 4000 fleets
So we divide the world conquered to worlds conquered by: Space Marine Legions (SML) with 200 fleets as specialized spear tip; and Imperial Army Cohorts (IAC) with 4000 fleets conquering the rest. Now lets start our calculation

SML(Space Marines Legions - 200 Fleets):
Each fleet (either under direct control from a Primarch or other Astartes high ranking officers) consists of more or less a dozen ships. Fleet commander (Being a Primarch or a space marine) can send these various ships to conquer various worlds in skirmishes in a system that contains a dozen worlds for example. Lets consider that each fleet conquered 10 worlds a year with 200 years on exploration among 200 fleets

(10 Worlds)*(200 Fleets)=2,000 worlds per a year by astartes legions
(2000 worlds)*(200 Years)=400,000 worlds during the entire crusade
So Space Marine Legions conquered 400,000 worlds



IAC(Imperial Army Cohorts - 4000 Fleets):
Again each fleet consists of more or less a dozen ships under the command of Imperial Army Commanders. Their army is consist of normal soldiers and trooper which are slower in their pace of conquering worlds than Space Marines. Now some of these fleets might be fortunate enough to be gifted with a small contingent of space marines but this is rare so we assume that most of these fleets had Imperial Army troopers for conquering a planet which slows down the process of conquering a world (Bringing compliance to the world in Imperial terms)
Lets consider that each fleet conquered 2 worlds a year (One Fifth of what legions did) with 200 years on exploration among 4000 fleets

(2 Worlds)*(4000 Fleets)=8,000 worlds per a year by army cohorts
(8000 worlds)*(200 Years)=1,600,000 worlds during the entire crusade
So Imperial Army Cohorts conquered 1,600,000 worlds



400,000+1,600,000=2,000,000 worlds conquered by the Imperium in 31st millennia
I also should note that some of the worlds willingly or diplomatically joined the Imperium without any military confrontation but the majority of the worlds fought against the Imperial rule more or less to a degree varying from total annihilation to fast surrenders

In the end I wanna say it is just my speculation and the info I got and research I did was based mostly on these 3 major sources:
Lexicanum,WarhammerWiki,Horus Heresy Novels. With a few searches on various weblogs on google,I will link them below

So if you ask me,this might be how the emperor conquered 2 million worlds in 200 years with 4200 Fleets.
I should note that currently in 40k there is around 1 million worlds indicating the high casualty rate of the Imperium during these 10 millennias

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I should add that i recently joined this forums and will be looking forward to discuss this stuff also am a huge 40k fan and a YT dow2elite caster
I will be glad to read your thoughts on this thread

Interesting read.


Where are you getting the 4200 fleets from BTW?

 Formosa wrote:
Interesting read.


Where are you getting the 4200 fleets from BTW?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Crusade

Warhammer40k wiki
At its peak in the early 31st Millennium, some 203 standard years after it began, there were 4,287 primary Expedition Fleets engaged upon the business of enforcing Imperial Compliance and extending the Imperial aegis across the galaxy as well as 60,000+ secondary deployment groups involved in regulating Compliance or Imperial occupations.

I think i also saw it in one of horus heresy books, mb horus rising

As you said some world joined willingly there were also very backwater worlds without any technology whatsoever. There were worlds encountered completely devoid of any popultion who were just have to be settled.

In this sense worlds that could withstand a might of the crusaders because of its technology or manpower could be very, very few...

Only because of the Imperium through 10.000 years planets technology, manpower and defence capabilities could be shared and improved. That is why Crusaders were moving with lightning speed while in 41 millenium even full might of Adeptus Astartes struggle to retake rebelious worlds.

Glumy wrote:
As you said some world joined willingly there were also very backwater worlds without any technology whatsoever. There were worlds encountered completely devoid of any popultion who were just have to be settled.

In this sense worlds that could withstand a might of the crusaders because of its technology or manpower could be very, very few...

Only because of the Imperium through 10.000 years planets technology, manpower and defence capabilities could be shared and improved. That is why Crusaders were moving with lightning speed while in 41 millenium even full might of Adeptus Astartes struggle to retake rebelious worlds.

Very well thought. I quiet like your reasoning
let us say 10% of the worlds that were conquered were either rebelious and wouldnt willingly join - The rest of 90% either were mostly StoneAge/Medival ish colonies or didnt join the imperium willingly
That actually makes sense and reduces the number to a more reasonable one (I stand corrected, tnx for the thought):



(1 Worlds)*(200 Fleets)=2,000 worlds per a year by astartes legions
(200 worlds)*(200 Years)=40,000 worlds during the entire crusade
So Space Marine Legions conquered 40,000 worlds

(0.2 Worlds)*(4000 Fleets)=800 worlds per a year by army cohorts
(800 worlds)*(200 Years)=160,000 worlds during the entire crusade
So Imperial Army Cohorts conquered 160,000 worlds


200,000 World Conqured by warfare
800,000 Joined without Conflict

During the Age of Strife humanity lost a lot of what it once knew and degenerated (thats what we can read). Only some worlds could hoard technology like the ones Sons of Horus faced in the first book. We are given the impression Crusaders were encountering enemies all the time because a struggle is what is fun to read about so we dont know much about peaceful compliants.

For 10.000 years Imperium could on one hand strengthen their own worlds and increase their manpower. Also share technology. On the other hand due to raise of the biurocracy it became a slowly moving elephant unable to solve even small problems on a galaxy wide scale. That is why it was unable to ever finish conquering the galaxy. Without the guidance of the Emperor and later Primarchs Imperium was divided by its own squabbles and again - biurocracy.

That is why i think retaking the world during the Great Crusade was a totally different thing to what it is in 41 millenium like Badab War or years long campaign to retake world of Vraks - in 30 millenium there (perhaps) werent many such worlds. Too much forgotten, destroyed, reduced to shadows of its former glory.

Glumy wrote:
During the Age of Strife humanity lost a lot of what it once knew and degenerated (thats what we can read). Only some worlds could hoard technology like the ones Sons of Horus faced in the first book. We are given the impression Crusaders were encountering enemies all the time because a struggle is what is fun to read about so we dont know much about peaceful compliants.

For 10.000 years Imperium could on one hand strengthen their own worlds and increase their manpower. Also share technology. On the other hand due to raise of the biurocracy it became a slowly moving elephant unable to solve even small problems on a galaxy wide scale. That is why it was unable to ever finish conquering the galaxy. Without the guidance of the Emperor and later Primarchs Imperium was divided by its own squabbles and again - biurocracy.

That is why i think retaking the world during the Great Crusade was a totally different thing to what it is in 41 millenium like Badab War or years long campaign to retake world of Vraks - in 30 millenium there (perhaps) werent many such worlds. Too much forgotten, destroyed, reduced to shadows of its former glory.

Agreed. Great Crusade was totally different, Imperium had 20 badass primarchs and was very powerful indeed and didnt have enemies like Chaos and Tyranids; hence was on the offensive and recliaming those worlds, while in 40k imperium is on the defense (without the resources of 30k being human resources or others)
Basically keeping the imperium is harder than making it

My guess is if there was around 2,000,000 world at the time of pre-heresy on the last days of the crusade; Imperium must have lost something like 1,000,000 wolrds. Chaos,Tyranids,Orks,Necrons devouring worlds. "An Empire of a million worlds" we have heard this expression alot in 40k
I mean events like (Horus Heresy) (Age of Apostacy) (Black Crusades) worst of all (Tyranid Invasions) not to mention (The Beast) must have cost the imperium a great toll at least half of their belongings and Depleting the resources of the other half

I mean Imperium in 30k had something like 2,000,000 astartes . I doubt if it has roughly 500,000 now, and they are all scattered 1000 by 1000 . The Closest thing to a legion is Black Templars with 7000 marines (The second biggest is 1400 marines of space wolves which is too low) Ultramarines had 200,000 now they have 1000 and the rest split a few various chapters

GW has never been good with scale.

The number of Astartes has never really made sense, regardless of fluff and plot armour, it would still take tens of thousands to pacify a single world. Looking at real life, a vastly superior country like the US, with all the technological and numerical advantages has still taken the best part of 15 years to barely pacify a back water country like Afghanistan.

Similarly the idea that any empire could last 10,000 years with virtually no innovation or major technology changes, is absurd.

I enjoy the setting but try to ignore all of the gigantic ridiculous numbers that GW employs within it's setting. The idea that there are 2 million inhabitable worlds within the galaxy is extremely unlikely, let alone that the Imperium could conquer them in the span of 2 centuries.

Based on the Kepler space míssion data there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting stars on a goldilocks zone. Thats based on just our currect knowledge.

Few million worlds that humans have are nothing on the galactic scale.

Besides the Imperium isnt even a nation state, but a feudal empire like the germanic Holy Roman Empire. Who knows how many of the worlds marked as compliant where just marked in the papers as such, with the intent that the local rulers would have to conquer them on their own time.

Interesting conversation here. The lore is fascinating even if it’s not always perfectly realistic. I choose to look at the background story like the HH black books are written, the way it is told within the setting: based on actual events but with details hazy, and some inconsistencies between sources. It keeps things in perspective that way and leaves some mysteries, like real ancient history.

GW's timelines have never made a ton of sense to me.

The 200 years to conquer the galaxy, when it could take years to decades to cross through the warp, doesn't make sense.

The 10 year span of for the Heresy makes no sense at all. 5 years from Ullanor to the start of the Heresy just makes even less sense.

GW has spent decades telling us that nothing moves fast in this galaxy, and then tries to sell us a story of a galactic spanning war happening in the blink of an eye.

Two slippery bits really help these numbers work.

The first is how many worlds consented without a fight. The Imperium of 30k was not the Imperium of 40k. No Inquisition, no Ecclesastacy, no tithes, offering advanced tech and psychic techniques that would make these isolated worlds better. And led by the wisest, most powerful, charismatic man who ever lived. All of the Martian forge worlds willingly joined the Imperium, who knows how many more.

Then there's the definition of conquer. Let's say the Space Marines hit modern Earth, they conquer New York City and raise their flag over the UN. Maybe they hit Mecca and the Vatican too. Then they pile into their ships and take off for the next world. Imperial troops and bureaucrats rush in. So um... Earth is conquered now?

Like Afghanistan or Iraq it's easy to take a capital, execute some leaders, install some locals and call it done. The hard work of occupation an integration will take decades or centuries.

So how about, the Marines SAY they conquered 2 million worlds but 99% of those consisted of either showing up and saying hey wanna join? Or drop podding into one city razing some stuff, hanging a flag and moving on.

I always headcannoned it that one fleet could still operate multiple star systems so many of those planets were tiny part of one fleet that came in and more or less peacefully negotiated compliance.

I disagree. 40k has done a good job defining things and is nothing like other sci-fi which dont explain anything; look at "Archwarhammer" in You-tube. 40k and GW has done a solid job of setting this galaxy wide Empire

To clarify how 400 astartes pacify a wolrd with billions of humans and advanced technology:
1-They are not grunts, so comparing them to the soldiers of Earth in current era is redundant. besides they are vastly superior they can take down 100 men single handedly
2-The difference between the valuable Astartes and Grunt soldiers and PDF forces is this; They are not there to mop the world up. They cut the head of the snake. They are the
"SPEAR TIP" which means they take down the hierarchy in lightning strikes, and with improved tactics neutrulize the enemy resistance, hence the mop up job and tending to local
insurgent (shoveling poop) falls to the hand of the imperial goverment and PDF forces (not even imperial army have time for that)

no offence ,but Generally people who complain about the vastness of 40k or the reasoning behind all of this magnificence are not truly into 40k and their loyalties are in other
sci-fi but hardcore 40k fans know that this universe is by far the BEST and the most ENORMOUS and the most REASONABLE compared to sci-fi universes like Starcraft,Halo,
starwars or star trek

"There is only the Emperor, his magnificence is the only truce i know"




PS:with respect to all the pose and opposing ideas here, in any case thank for your feedback on the thread

Doesn't change the fact that when you look at how stories have them days, weeks and even months in one planet and then calculate how many worlds they need to conquer per day per fleet something is off...

Gw has never been good with numbers. They just put something that sounds good. End result we have marine chapters that shouldn't exists anymore etc. Even ultramarines have been wiped out multiple times if one digs numbers too deep.

I think this needs to be said.



I love 40k because in many ways it is a detailed and complex and layered universe. Drawing heavily from history the people act like people.

(In Star Trek there's a theory that the human race can and will improve, so it's a deliberate difference)

And I agree, a million Marines can be made to work if you assume that each one is Captain American wearing Iron Man armor.

It runs into problems when the game rules say 50 marines is about equal to 100, 150 humans rather than say 1000s.

It can still be handwaved, the Marines are able to drop from orbit ignoring 99% of an army to hit that one vital spot, but GW is not always good at depicting this.

As for the Great Crusade, I'd just assume a lot of the 'conquests' were perfunctory, in name only, and sometimes they didn't even land on the planet, just flew by and waved the flag en route to somewhere more vital.